Lancia Beta Forum
Technical stuff => Suspension => Topic started by: Nigel on August 07, 2021, 08:44:19 PM
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Good day
I've got the Haynes and the Lancia figures which agree on the Rear at 2-5mm toe-in.
They conflict on the front however: Haynes says 1-2.5mm toe-out
Lancia says 1-2.5mm toe-in
However I read somewhere on here that there is new
thinking/ better settings recommended these days.
Pointers gratefully received!
Nigel
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Hi Nigel
I think there’s a degree of personal preference when setting tracking. IIRC, I’m using about 3-degrees toe-out which works for me.
Chris
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Hi Nigel
There was also a comment on here I seem to remember, but not able to find it, from someone who uses toe in on his race car as it makes it handle better for him. So as Chris says, down to personal preference. I used Haynes figures to set mine up and did not realise the Lancia ones were different.
Peter
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These are the most recent information from Lancia on this, from the final technical data book issued in 1984 and two technical bulletins '83 and '86
https://www.amazon.co.uk/photos/share/pBeYcYCHhmYuuUezoXDGlTVixdd0XOCYWCS3IWzD7zh (https://www.amazon.co.uk/photos/share/pBeYcYCHhmYuuUezoXDGlTVixdd0XOCYWCS3IWzD7zh)
Make of them what you will, as always when you dig things can get confusing
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Here's a different view from a very early technical data book. (1974)
In this I believe the figures are for a loaded car.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/photos/share/YBIm3hlhQzqAhwfViN6AMIWCft1PGGt2rqFi3MUYhj4 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/photos/share/YBIm3hlhQzqAhwfViN6AMIWCft1PGGt2rqFi3MUYhj4)
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As I read these Lancia data sheets then toe in recommended for rear between 2&5mm and for the front anywhere between 1mm toe in and 2.5mm toe out. i.e. negative number refers to toe out .....
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I would go with the latest settings because they will get closer to modern tyre needs. I have custom settings I will try when the car is complete, but I have adjustments not present on standard cars.
Eric
PS be aware wheel spacing is staggered on these cars from the factory (different front to rear). So keep wheel spacer size consistent front and rear if changing wheels.
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Hi Eric,
Are you suggesting to maintain the factory wheel track spacing front and rear?
Is that a design feature to improve dynamics?
Nigel
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Hi Nigel
Yes I am and yes it is. More often found on more expensive cars. I came across this when working through my wheel and tyre check last year. At first I thought the data books had typos so I googled it.
Eric
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I used to run the front with toe-in on my Beta race car because it turned into a bend sharper especially when trailing the brakes. In mid corner it also drifted into understeer more progressively and when pushed deep into understeer it comes back quicker. I never got on with front toe-out. More understeer and slower to return grip. Both my VX coupe on coilovers and my Berlina run toe-in.
Golden rule on the rear, ‘always run toe in’ or you will have the back coming round on you every time you lift off of the throttle in a turn or even braking slightly on a roundabout. Toe out on the rear is for the brave or the insane. Track use only!
Then move the tyre pressures a few psi and you can change it all up again.
Of course we all drive differently and prefer different responses, so experiment until you find what suits you.
Ian
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Hi Nigel
I think there’s a degree of personal preference when setting tracking. IIRC, I’m using about 3-degrees toe-out which works for me.
Chris
Going to get my tracking checked tomorrow. I have tried front toe-in and now out (by accident) and I think I like it. I am guessing 3d isnt much? I will take the doc Alan added here.
I have a feeling next winter I will fit some of Mark's new springs if he does a second batch, and would love some Spax gas shocks on the front to match the rear
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Unless a race car it is normal for front wheel drive cars to be toe out (1-3mm measured on the rim) and toe in at the rear......
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Unless a race car it is normal for front wheel drive cars to be toe out (1-3mm measured on the rim) and toe in at the rear......
You are forgetting that Lancias aren't normal 😂....I suspect fine tuning is a matter of trial and error.
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As mentioned before I used toe in rear and toe out front and have zero complaints on handling so happy to leave as is. Maybe the difference is subtle and in general not a big difference under normal road use?
Peter
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amended my rushed post above. Correction toe-OUT front and toe-in rear :P
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I was thinking of trying to dial in 2mm out at the front and 2mm in at the back. Whilst I know the attachment settings are wrong it does feel a lot better. Assuming because that are all similar now?
Question is, do I just measure myself the required toe-out/in mm or does anyone have the right degrees/minutes settings for my garage fitters, I am sending myself around the twist trying to convert this. They said figure it out and come back.
Using a converter calculator and a wheel and tyre diameter of 615mm, I am thinking in minutes its -50 and +50 front and back total for the axle respectively, any thoughts would be massively appreciated?
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Hi Mark
Hope this helps.
I used triangle calculator
https://www.calculator.net/triangle-calculator.html
I input one side as 356mm (14 inches) and next as 1 mm with 90 degrees between them and result was 9' 39", ie 9 minutes 39 seconds, for 2mm result was 19' 19".
Obviously if your sizes differ then re input to get result.
Peter
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Hi Mark
Hope this helps.
I used triangle calculator
https://www.calculator.net/triangle-calculator.html
I input one side as 356mm (14 inches) and next as 1 mm with 90 degrees between them and result was 9' 39", ie 9 minutes 39 seconds, for 2mm result was 19' 19".
Obviously if your sizes differ then re input to get result.
Peter
I use two strings down side of car and a steel rule>>>>>
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I think I am going to look at this as you say 'just measuring it' and see how I get on. Getting all setting mostly equal each side is a good starting point. I will give it a try.
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I use two strings down side of car and a steel rule>>>>>
This is also my method and has worked well on the Spider for me. The modern laser setup does have the advantage of also checking camber and castor which although fixed can show up if you have any accident damage etc and if wildly out which could cause difficult to diagnose handling issues.
Peter
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Plus one for the string method for initial set up. You can use it to find centre lines, check diagonal measurements, wheelbase and set both front and rear wheels to parallel/inline. You struggle with string measuring castor and camber but if you use wheel centers as the point of reference you won't go far wrong. I have gauges to measure camber but not castor (but I think that's fixed on a Beta without adjustable top mounts?) and I have an old optical laser gauge to measure toe in/out too but it's a faff to use. When adjusting toe in/out put a reference mark on the track rod adjustors and keep a note for each corner of how many turns you make so it's easy to return it to the original parallel/square setting if you need to start again. And don't forget to tighten everything up after each adjustment... Once everything is settled down it's worth getting a full check to ensure nothing is wildly out but if the car is handling well you're unlikely to be far out.
Big caveat though - make sure all your suspension bushes are nice and tight as wear in any of them will affect the adjustments!
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I have no old bushes in the entire car now :-)
I now have a level playing field to work from. I am going to try changing to a little bit of toe-out at the front and the same but toe-in on the back. It needs to stop raining first.
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I have no old bushes in the entire car now :-)
I now have a level playing field to work from. I am going to try changing to a little bit of toe-out at the front and the same but toe-in on the back. It needs to stop raining first.
You need a flat horizontal floor for the 2 string method. Checking camber is a doddle with one of the cheap magnetometer gauges which if you have swivel plates can also check castor.