Lancia Beta Forum
General Category => Members Cars => Topic started by: peteracs on September 16, 2021, 03:48:23 PM
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Hi All
As the Spider is almost finished except for a few 'shakedown' issues I was aiming to start work on the engine rebuild I started a thread on a while ago, but....
I was talking with Tony at the recent Betameeta and it transpired the early HPE which I knew his boss, Rob, had bought some time ago was going to be up for sale as they were selling off their restoration projects. This was a car which had been highlighted on here many years ago, originally owned by Mark M. See the following for details of it first being offered here.
http://www.lanciabeta.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2386.0 (http://www.lanciabeta.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2386.0)
Given I have always fancied getting an early car similar to the one I had in 1980 for a time, a deal was done and it arrived last night.
So the engine will have to take a back seat for now as I need to crack one with getting this ready for the bodywork to be done. My plan is to run the Spider for the next year or so whilst getting the HPE on the road, then most likely sell the Spider and separately sell the Saab once I have no more need of it and just leave me with the HPE which will be a far more practical car for my wife to go in as she uses a wheelchair which is not that practical in the Spider......
I do expect plenty of bumps along the road as the body will be hiding some horrors as well as the ones I can already see. So far found one mouse nest under the back seats...
Peter
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Hi Peter,
Doesn't it sit so perfectly in your garage with the Spider.
I hope it's still in as good, at least in appearance, as when those photos were
taken some 8 years ago. Those rear seat bolsters, so good, they're still there I hope.
I saw that thread when first published, and had I be living where I do now, I'd have
bought it! Having said that, I'm glad you've got it as you'll no doubt give it everything
it deserves.
Best wishes,
Nigel
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Hi Nigel
The picture truly flatters it. In reality a full restore is required, plenty of filler in places. There will be a debate if a full body strip will be the best way to go. The good news is that it is pretty complete just in need of a lot of love and money spending on it…..
Peter
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Nice colour and love the flat bonnet. It's in the right place now to get all the attention it needs.
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Looks very much at home.
Mark
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Nice colour and love the flat bonnet. It's in the right place now to get all the attention it needs.
Hi Neil
The eventual colour is currently a hot debate topic. Personally I like some form of blue, but the question then is what colour interior to go with the brown dash etc?
This will go on for some time before a decision is made.
All tucked up for the next few weeks as off the France. Getting to feel a bit like normal, hopefully this will carry on.
Peter
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Hi Peter,
Doesn't it sit so perfectly in your garage with the Spider.
I hope it's still in as good, at least in appearance, as when those photos were
taken some 8 years ago. Those rear seat bolsters, so good, they're still there I hope.
I saw that thread when first published, and had I be living where I do now, I'd have
bought it! Having said that, I'm glad you've got it as you'll no doubt give it everything
it deserves.
Best wishes,
Nigel
couldnt agree more, they look great together!
I like the blue too btw ;)
Best Andrew
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Hi
Whilst away in France all we can do is debate colours, which is going to take a long time I think to come to a conclusion.
The complication is the brown interior and the suitably toning seats etc. I always liked the mustard colour seats, but they will probably have something similarly bright, but will be leather trimmed, the Spider seats were a good result.
The outside, my starter for 10 is some sort of burnt orange, I am determined it is not going to be a black/white/grey. I quite like this BMW colour, not sure about modern metallic on older cars however. Comments welcome………
Peter
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Hi Peter,
My first Beta, a Coupe, had the same interior as yours. I still love the mustard
seat upholstery, and would, if ever it happens redo in a yellow leather.
This old 76 Coupe was in Lancia Blu, which complimented the interior quite well.
I painted a yellow pin-stripe along the swage line as an additional nod.
A sign spotted in a hardware store in Jhb [ c.1983] :
"Husbands choosing paint colours must bring note from wife"
Enjoy the holiday,
Nigel
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Hi Nigel
The seat colours will be an interesting choice. The colour above is via the wife, and final sign off will be via her as I am spending OUR money on this……
Peter
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Hi
Whilst away in France all we can do is debate colours, which is going to take a long time I think to come to a conclusion.
The complication is the brown interior and the suitably toning seats etc. I always liked the mustard colour seats, but they will probably have something similarly bright, but will be leather trimmed, the Spider seats were a good result.
The outside, my starter for 10 is some sort of burnt orange, I am determined it is not going to be a black/white/grey. I quite like this BMW colour, not sure about modern metallic on older cars however. Comments welcome………
Peter
I remember seeing a spyder in a similar colour, although not original I think it suits it well :)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/tonysphotos/albums/72157594162784979 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tonysphotos/albums/72157594162784979)
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Hi Marcus
Thanks, this one posted by Stuart in another thread is a little darker and is looking to be a front runner for now at least.
Colour is Rosso Brighton apparently.
Peter
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You needn't be too far from original with a metallic brown as this picture from my stash shows. It even has the mustard interior, though I think a warmer shade of metallic brown, as illustrated on the Spider, is more pleasing to the eye.
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On lanciamad's link I think the intrgrale wheels really suit the metalic brown better than original Beta ones. Picture credit to Tony Harrison.
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Hi Frank
Thanks, the last one is a bit too orange and brown is not in the running. I hope to get an actual sample of the Rosso Brighton as the colour on screen can be quite misleading.
Peter
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That last one is Mark Milne's car and it looks fantastic in the real world.
Eric
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Indeed it does Eric. I remember telling him if he ever wanted to sell then let me know. 😊
That's my car next to it I think and seem to remember it was Autoitalia at Stanford Hall, quite a few years ago now.
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Had a productive afternoon stripping out the rear of the HPE (photo to follow!). Thankfully most things came out without too much persuasion. The one surprise was the rear side windows which hinge at the front. Both are completely rotten on the lower edge, however the main body next to them is pretty well untouched which is a relief.
So anyone have any HPE rear side windows available? The glass and trim on mine are good, just need some decent frames.
So far, albeit not got that far, the bodywork appears not too bad in the main cabin. The front inner wings are shot, but that is to be expected. The rear turret on one side has obviously had work previously and appears solid. All in all quite encouraged.
I have also started buying some parts which will probably not be used for some significant time, but you can never be sure if you will find them again or have to pay silly money in the future. So far have bought new discs, engine mounts and some trim parts.
Peter
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I had a similar experience with rear side windows on a coupe. I found that the ones which rotted had a stainless steel outer cover over a mild steel frame, hence the rot, but the ones from my spares car had completely stainless steel frames. I wonder if the same might be true for HPEs.
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Hi Frank
Interesting, I will see what offers I get and if any are stainless.
Peter
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Nothing to report on the rear side windows yet, but have learnt that there are two styles of window used (thanks Guy). I of course need the early probably rare to find in decent condition ones, rather than the later ones. The difference is the fixing on mine is via two elongated ‘pins’ which fix into plastic lined slots in the B pillar.
I have managed a half a day on the drivers door which is now almost stripped. The lower stainless strip had been riveted in position which I had not expected. The rest of the parts came off without too much of a fight and although I suspect filler in the very bottom of the door skin, it does appear to be in not too bad condition, certainly looks better to my mind than the Spider door was. As often is the case the window ‘scraper’ on the outside of the window has come detached from the stainless strip and is missing.
I will get some photos posted soon hopefully.
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Okay, please don't send out the search parties to lynch me and remember that back in the 1980's Beta's were still reasonably plentiful.
My first one was a red 1978 HPE with the mustard interior which looked superb but ergonomically wasn't as comfortably as the later one. After a minor accident around 1983/4 I needed to replace the bonnet and front wings on the car and, given that it was still 99% solid, I decided that it was worth the investment of a full respray and stripped it to a shell. One thing led to another and I decided to "update" the interior too to the later blue cloth/black dash/black steering wheel. Not an impossible job, just a few mounting clips in different spots on the dash and rear quarter panels if my memory is correct.
When I said 99% solid the part that wasn't was the rear window frames, the bottom edges were crumbling under the stainless trim. The solution was a simple one, just update to the later window frames that wrap around the B pillar, secured with a couple of self tappers. If you struggle to find the right early ones this may be the route you will have to follow albeit that it can be "masked" with a coat of paint?
Guy
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Hi Guy
Thanks, that does sound like a possible solution to the problem, which I assume was an issue on most early cars, apart from dry climate ones. I wonder if the glass is the same size as I am assuming later windows will most likely be tinted and the early cars were just plain?
There is also the black/stainless finish, but that would be secondary at this point.
Peter
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Hi Peter, I think that you might be able to remove the stainless trim off the original window frame and swap it over with a bit of care. The same probably goes for the glass but I can't recall how the frame was assembled. I think I got lucky and the later series glass I found was clear? Either that or I swapped the drop glass for tinted too.
Or, can metal polish remove the finish on the later trim to expose stainless steel underneath?
Guy
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Hi Guy
If clear glass was available on later cars, would be a result. I had assumed that the black was simply some sort of paint over stainless which could be removed and polished. On swapping over the glass would depend on if the profile of the early screen glass is the same as the later ones.
I will have a hunt for some later windows and if sensible price, get them and see what I can make of them.
Peter
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I can confirm clear glass was available on later cars, because after having my 1982 I.E. repainted, I switched from clear to tinted all around (see #1oah307 on Instagram).
I still have the clear windows, but don't know if it would be interesting for you to have them sent from outside the UK, with Brexit and all...
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The black finish on later cars is just paint, and can be removed relatively easily. In fact, on most Volumex/ie cars, the trick is keeping it on!
Did the black start on facelift HPEs? It didn't appear on Coupes until the second facelift.
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I can confirm clear glass was available on later cars, because after having my 1982 I.E. repainted, I switched from clear to tinted all around (see #1oah307 on Instagram).
I still have the clear windows, but don't know if it would be interesting for you to have them sent from outside the UK, with Brexit and all...
Hi, thanks for the offer. I do intend buying a pair of good condition later windows and may very well need the clear glass if the early glass is a different size.
To save the shipping to U.K. issues and costs, you can ship to our friends in France where we can pick it up when we visit next year. I will let you know when I have the replacement windows here.
Peter
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A good day spent on the car yesterday. Finally have the drivers door off and attacked the RHD front wing. Some of the screws came out ok, two had to be drilled. Given the state of the inner wing I am surprised that many unscrewed. Also managed to remove the rest of the fixings from the rear hatch including the stainless window surround. The window will be the next job. It is very well fixed in with the original bonding, so will be a challenge. Photos below of how far I have got…
Peter
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Hi Peter,
I bought a length of abrasive cutting wire, made for screen removal.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/333858995028 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/333858995028)
Great to view the progress.
Nigel
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Hi Nigel
Interesting, thanks for link. I was going to try a length of bike brake cable I have, if that is not abrasive enough will invest in some of that. Cannot see how else you get it out.
Peter
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If you have the nerve to try it Fein Vibrating saws are frequently used in a slow and steady way.
Eric
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One point to make is that although the inner wing is bad, it is no worse than the Spider when they uncovered that. Overall the Spider was much worse than what I see in the HPE (at present of course). On the Spider as well as the inner front wings, the outer wings were scrap, one door needed a fair amount of new metal, both sides at the base of A and B pillars needed work, the rear turrets were a mess. On the HPE so far there is some work at the base of the A pillars, and some rot around the base of the rear turrets together with minor bits of rust in various places where some new metal will be needed, but not huge amounts compared to the Spider which also needed new front footwells amongst other items. the top of the fuel tank is rusty, but will wait to see how much when I drop it down. Overall pretty happy with what I have found so far. I am sure when it is blasted we will find a whole load more.....
Peter
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If you have the nerve to try it Fein Vibrating saws are frequently used in a slow and steady way.
Eric
Hi Eric
Power tools near to glass would not be an option I would use, I would definitely ruin the glass. I like the slow manual method.
Peter
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The inside of the fuel tank is more critical then the outside as I'm sure you appreciate.
From what I've read in numerous other threads, fuel issues
contribute the most stress. It was for this reason that I hardly hesitated
in fitting a new tank, despite the considerable investment.
Glad to hear that, in the main so far, you're finding fewer issues than the Spider.
Nigel
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Hi Nigel
I agree with your view on take no risks with rusty tanks.
Eric
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I will take the sender out over next few days and survey the scene….
Major job of the day apart from sweeping up, was to finish getting the rear window out. A right royal pain. In the end I heated the original sealant with a hot air gun, this made it a bit more pliable. I then was able to get the internally fixed trim out completely. Then I cleared as much of the sealant out with a Stanley blade and small angled scraper as possible. Then using a bike brake cable I was able to cut the remaining sealant. It took a good few hours. The interior trim and glass removed so far have now been stored away in the attic workshop.
Starting to look like a bare chassis.
Peter
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Peter,
That screen surround appears to be in very good condition, far better than mine.
Glad you got that screen out with what you had.
If you find that the tank sender unit is damaged/rusty/etc upon inspection, which they
often are, don't be too quick in buying an exact replacement. You have the
opportunity to upgrade to the later type, but that would be in conjunction with a new tank.
Regards, Nigel
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Hi Nigel
Yes, the whole rear hatch is in good condition apart from the holes where the badges fit, which is typical because of the metal on metal with the pins, crap design. They will be easily filled and redrilled and I put butyl on the back of the badges to stop water ingress etc. Overall the rear of the car is in great condition, with a hole in the left hand rear well, just below a badly fitting aerial point…… also on the right hand side at the front of the right turret. It appears the turrets have had work done in the past, but is still in good condition.
I still have the wiring to remove from the rear hatch which will probably be a little awkward, one side has been cut for some reason, but I was aiming to rebuild the loom anyway, so just need the original as a template.
Then it is on with the rest of the interior and passenger door which should hopefully be fairly straight forward.
Peter
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A good days work, ignored the hatch and pressed on with removing the interior and left hand door parts. The only issue I had was the rear seats are held in with a number of cross headed countersunk bolts and they protrude to the underside. They are well fastened in and I really do want to drill them, so am leaving for now and will revisit later with some easing oil on the underside when I can sensibly get to it to clean up the bolts.
Generally not a huge amount of rot. The left hand door has some rot along the front area where the triangular glass sits, mainly on the inside which is curious, but the rest of the door looks to be solid. Not had the carpet up yet, but have seen some what appears to be surface rust. You can also now see that both sills have been replaced and around the base of the rear turrets is a bit of a bodge, but that looks to have to be redone anyway, so no big surprise.
Always amuses me the variety of screws (cross point and slotted) used to when a car is just kept going. Also the after market stereo installation where the speaker wires are run along the carpet trim below the doors and held in with silicone rather than under than remove the trim and run them where the other wires go.
The carpet is ready to come out, but leaving in there as more comfortable than the metal floor!
Peter
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A bit more achieved today, steering column out and dash removed. Also deleted the extra crap wiring previously installed so I can see where the original is. My aim is to replace the loom with modern wire and provided a bulkhead connector which will allow me to wire up the engine bay and importantly change it as I will probably update the engine at a later time.
Should get some time on Monday, so next up is finish stripping the left hand door, just the circlip on the pull handle to take off and remove the heater unit. After that the pedals and should be ready to remove the carpet and see how the floor is.
Peter
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A rare picture of what lies behind the dash. I struggled to find one for my later car when I came to re-building. This early car if significantly different including the large Oval holes to the scuttle.
Eric
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Hi
A couple of days on the car. Windscreen and surround out and finished stripping the main cabin interior except the wiring as leaving for now. Headlining removal revealed mouse nest, no surprise and no damage. On the rear seat backrest mounts only one bolt had to be drilled out which was a surprise as most were mangled and rusty.
Carpet now removed and floor looks in good condition. Major issue us the drivers side base of the A pillar where it is all corroded behind where the little bin is located. Photo also shows some patching up from before with the lighter blue paint.
Peter
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Looking very good for such an early car! I've seen the removal of the soundproofing done by pouring dry ice over it to freeze it and then hitting with a rubber mallet to smash it. Might need some research and I have no idea where you source dry ice!
Guy
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Hi Guy
The internal soundproofing for the rear seats is as new and just lifts up, the rest is pretty much a mishmash, but hoping when it is blasted it will all come up ok.
I know underseal responds well to freezing to remove it, but again, hoping what there is will be taken care of by the body guy.
Peter
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Guy, I think you meant the thin bituminous material which is stuck down underneath the padded material. In the rear wells it is in good condition and depending on the body guy, may well be left. however the front wells do need cleaning out.
Had a few hours on the car today and managed to get the fuel tank out. As I suspected it has surface rust on the outside, but more seriously has a lot of rust above where the petrol was sitting, so looks only good enough as a pattern for getting a new one made which is a shame, but not unexpected given the general state of the car and how long it has been left standing.
Finding a genuine replacement will be pretty impossible I think, so will investigate the one discussed here on the forum a while ago and see if that is still and option. Given my aim is to go Injection with the car, it makes sense to have a tank which includes the necessary swirl pot etc I think, rather than use and external one which Eric gave me a pointer to a while ago if using standard tank.
The panels on the body around the tank are however in good condition and I only have two of the four tank mounting studs to replace.
Peter
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Hi
A quick hopefully simple pair of questions.
I am aiming to remove the engine and leave the subframe in for the time being until we establish how secure the front is without it at the bodywork shop.
The questions are, should the battery tray be removable and does it need to be removed to get the engine out from the top?
My tray is welded to the support and possibly to the inner wing, but I seem to remember on the later cars it may be removable?
Thanks
Peter
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Hi Peter,
It's obviously better to remove the battery tray, as it's one less thing for the gearbox to snag on, but if the earlier cars did not have removable battery trays (my S2FL battery tray is bolted on to two arms) then I would say it has to be doable. I can't imagine Lancia would knowingly add that kind of gotcha to the design (having said that...)
The S2FL has 4 bolts securing the tray into two arms that project from the LH inner wing. If yours is welded I'd be inclined to try and convert to later spec (if it's possible). But of course that would be much easier to accomplish with the engine and gearbox absent from the engine bay. Bit of a Catch-22, really.
But the answer is a qualified yes. It has to be possible to remove the engine/gearbox with the battery tray in situ. When the engine/gearbox assembly is lifted out, the gearbox is always 'low' and can be manoeuvred fore and aft once clear of mountings. You'd probably want 2 people, one to gently winch and the other to guide the engine/gearbox past all the snagging points, but I'd definitely say it's possible.
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Hi Graham
Glad I had not imagined it being bolted. On the Spider I cannot remember if was originally and it came back from the bodyshop welded, but for some reason I had to change it so is now a bolted version.
Peter
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Hi Graham
Glad I had not imagined it being bolted. On the Spider I cannot remember if was originally and it came back from the bodystockings welded, but for some reason I had to change it so is now a bolted version.
Peter
I presume autocomplete had a hand in this? Or is there something you want to tell us? ;D
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Hi Graham
Glad I had not imagined it being bolted. On the Spider I cannot remember if was originally and it came back from the bodystockings welded, but for some reason I had to change it so is now a bolted version.
Peter
I presume autocomplete had a hand in this? Or is there something you want to tell us? ;D
You never know..... Yep iPad to blame, updated now!
Thanks
Peter
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After sorting out family issues for the last month, I am now back on the HPE strip down, had a day and half. Managed to remove
Exhaust, now in the scrap pile
The clutch and brake mechanism which is used on RHD cars
Servo and master cylinder
Passenger door and outer wing, oddly the passenger inner wing is nowhere near as bad as the drivers one, still looking for donor car, anyone?
Engine mounting bolts
Front baffles for radiator
Front skirt
Front bumper
Also drained fluid from engine and gearbox, oddly the gearbox oil was quite clear, the engine oil very black.
Soon be engine out time once the drive shaft bolts have been removed.
Target is end of Feb to finish, will be close.
One last thing is I managed to buy a pair of rear inserts (NOS) via the Beta Facebook page. These appear to be uber rare now and very expensive, so hoping although old stock they are good, fingers crossed. I think the front ones will be a whole lot simpler to find.
Peter
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Good to hear of your progress Peter.
If your rear shocks are showing any signs of rust at the bottom, I have a clean pair
that you can have.
They are the sealed type, so would need converting though.
Cheers, Nigel
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Hi Peter
The gearbox oil drained cold can fail to collect the crud inside the gearbox so expect to sacrifice some oil to drain it again hot when the car runs. NB I had this with a 24k Monte Gearbox I re-built for Chris Clarke. The old oil came out golden but left crud and had etched syncros and bearings. Largely the internals were scrap. Take the diff case and 5th gear cover off off and have a really good look.
Eric
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Hi Eric
Thanks, I am aiming to use an IE gearbox/diff, so this with the engine will go in the ‘spares’ pile with the other ones I have.
Good point about the crud, there probably is some given the age/mileage and the magnet was none too clean.
Peter
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Good to hear of your progress Peter.
If your rear shocks are showing any signs of rust at the bottom, I have a clean pair
that you can have.
They are the sealed type, so would need converting though.
Cheers, Nigel
Hi Nigel
Thanks, not had a good look yet, but I believe the ones I have are the original replaceable ones after ‘feeling’ the top for the nut.
Fingers crossed…
Peter
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Another morning on the car and have the two driveshafts disconnected from the diff/intermediate shaft. Also removed the front headlight levelling ‘thing’ which is attached to the offside lower suspension arm.
So here is the question, as all the headlight levelling parts need replacing, do I just do a delete on the whole thing and live with static headlights like on the Coupe/Spider. It will make my life a whole lot simpler and save me a bunch of money as I imagine these parts are a pain to find in good working condition?
Note I do not imagine carrying that much which is heavy in the back, so I cannot see a situation where the rear will be overloaded. Also this will not be restored as per original, so that is not an issue for me. This is being built for me, no one else!
Let me know your thoughts……
Peter
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Hi Peter,
It's a factory-sealed system, you can't refill it in any way.
I found that, on mine, the system wasn't working.
I removed everything, but retained the [seized] front actuators in position as the
outboard headlights adjust from there.
If your actuators move, i'm sure there will be a way to fix that with something creative.
Regards, Nigel
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Hi Nigel
Makes me even less inclined to keep it, so consigned to the scrap pile it is. Pretty sure the actuators are seized or they look like it. I may just replace the backing plates with Spider ones as I think I have some spare ones.
Peter
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Back on colours, currently liking this Toyota colour called Hot Lava code 4R8
Peter
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Not really my cup of tea, but colour is a very personal choice. I quite like the colour it is currently.
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Hi Graham
Yes, very personal. I really like some of the blue metallics but not with brown interior and I do like the early seats and dash….
Peter
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Hi Graham
Yes, very personal. I really like some of the blue metallics but not with brown interior and I do like the early seats and dash….
Peter
Hi Peter,
Yes, the brown interior does rather narrow the choice of colours available. Always a tricky decision.
Graham
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A bit of an update.
Currently going through loosening all the nuts and bolts on the suspension, removing the brake calipers, but not removing the suspension completely, ie leaving the wheels so I can move the car and more importantly allow me to transport it to the bodywork guy. Fairly happy with how it is coming part dispute a fair amount of surface rust on everything. Only one or two sheared small bolts to sort out so far.
John, the bodywork guy who did my Spider, came yesterday to take a look and declared it ok for him. We agreed to transport with suspension on and then remove it when on his lift so I can then sort getting it and the subframe refurbished. I suspect he will want to keep the front subframe to help with the alignment of the front whist the wings are repaired, though I do have a couple more in my stock of parts, so may choose to use one of them instead.
Looks like it will hit John’s place around the end of May to fit in with his workload, which suits me, hopefully it will not slip too much.
In my quest to get as many parts purchased now rather than leave it due the prices most likely going skywards, I have a quote form Lincolnshire Radiators to recore the radiator of £221, it is the older metal one. I also purchased the complete linkage kit from John in the US which I also used on the Spider. The linkage and bushes on the HPE are shot as per normal.
I also bought some bearings as going to replace all the hub ones and a pair of CV joints. As on one on the Spider they are not 100% correct and as supplied they bind on the hub housing when tightened. So I can return which is a pain and no guarantee what I do get will be any better, or as I did with the Spider get the CV joint modified. I now have a neighbour who was a machinist before retiring and has a lathe in the garage and has offered to help if I need anything done. So I am going to have a chat with him, hopefully can get it sorted. One issue I do have is that the dust rings fitted to the CV joints are completely rusted and not usable. Anyone know where they can be found?
Peter
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Hi
Currently going through a spate of purchases, decided to buy as much as I can in advance given all the talk about price rises etc.
Latest is a the shifter kit from John in the US (http://fiatlancia.us/ (http://fiatlancia.us/))
A few more bits to come.
One word of warning which I knew from the Spider is that there are some CV joints out there which are listed as for the Beta, but when you fit them bind on the hub. The fix is either buy the correct one! Or get them machined to remove the lip which is too large. Of course the ones I bought are the latter type, given the cost which is pretty cheap and I have ex machinist who is a neighbour, I will get them modified. A pain, but you have to adapt.
Peter
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Next up is the gearbox I want to use. Looking through the specs on the various gearboxes/diffs I thought it would make sense to go with a VX box. The reason for this is that the engine I am aiming to build is going to be n/a but with mods such as throttle bodies, different inlet cam, ported head and increased compression ratios, 4 branch exhaust. So hoping that the power and more importantly the torque will be much improved over the standard 2l carb engine. As this car is for just road driving, having a good cruising gear was pretty important even if I spend a fair amount of time in 4th on normal roads. Time will of course tell.
I bought the box on Ebay from a guy called Mike who it turned out used to be Guy Croft’s machinist when he had a company in Kent. He still is hands on with various machines in a small workshop at home. The box was out of a running VX, albeit 20 years ago. It is possible it was rebuilt at some point, but I will give it a good clean out, check bearings to the best of my ability and we will see how it performs before I worry about stripping it down with all that entails.
Second photo shows the stamping of the ratios which are 19/62
See this link to table of ratios
http://www.lanciabeta.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2115.0 (http://www.lanciabeta.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2115.0)
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Another couple of days spent stripping the car. Removed as many of the plastic clips as I can find that make sense, anyone know where I can find replacements for
1) The hook type ones which retain the loom
2) The square ones used in various places such as door and brake mechanism cover in passenger well
3) The ones used to hold the brake and fuel lines
Also spent a not too enjoyable hour or with a heat gun getting the foam/bituminous padding off the inner roof. Also finished getting the loom out from the rear hatch which was not so simple.
So apart from the engine coming out (it is all loose ready to be lifted) the car is ready to go off to the bodywork guy which is currently slated for end of May all being well.
I am now in buying mode for parts which will tax the credit card. Ordered a brake hose kit the other day, I should have read the details more closely. Listed for an HPE 1600, what came was 4 hoses, not a lot of good when you need 6……
They are going back and a 6 hose kit being ordered. Not sure why anyone would produce a 4 hose kit?
Peter
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I sent off the original metal radiator to Lincolnshire Radiators to be recored as the core had seen better days. They came back with two options, standard and uprated core options. Pricing was relatively little between them, but as I am going to run and uprated engine, I decided on an uprated core.
I picked up the radiator today and all looks good, total price was £266.
As part of my spending spree (which is looking like it will be going on for a while…) I also picked up from Ebay a couple of new front struts complete, also something I thought would be impossible to find, other than maybe from a stupidly priced Italian seller, a brand new Siem wing indicator light. Just need to now find a n other in reasonable condition. So if anyone has one please get in touch. It does need to be the Siem part with metal surround rather than the plastic of the later and more common version.
Peter
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I sent off the original metal radiator to Lincolnshire Radiators to be recored as the core had seen better days. They came back with two options, standard and uprated core options. Pricing was relatively little between them, but as I am going to run and uprated engine, I decided on an uprated core.
I picked up the radiator today and all looks good, total price was £266.
That looks ideal, Peter. Having a radiator of the same height and width dimensions makes packaging so much simpler. I presume the depth of the core is greater to provide the uprated capacity? Did Lincolnshire Radiators advise what engine power range the uprated radiator is suitable for? I will almost certainly be following in your footsteps here...
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Hi Graham
I did not ask re power, though not sure if they could answer it. I will ask.
As to size, physically it is the same, I understood the construction of the core was such that it allow more cooling than the standard one. Again I will ask. My main aim was to try to keep the standard mountings/size to avoid revising the front. I aim to use a modern fan assembly with it.
If I find the temp variation is significant then a rethink may be necessary, but the car is slated for road use only on a n/a engine, so worth going down this road to my mind.
Peter
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Hi Peter
I have been looking for 1 SIEM Wing indicator for years to match the single NOS one I have. So if you do find more than one I definitely want one.
Eric
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Hi All
Ok, agreed a swap with Eric to solve both our indicator problems, so good result all round.
As mentioned on the alloy fuel tank thread, I now have a new tank for the car as the old one was past its sell by date.
Also bought a few bits from Mark
Sump mod kit to help with oil surge
New handbrake cable
New seal for fuel tank sensor
The sensor I have appears to work ok. It is of the earlier type which also has the fuel takeoff integral to it, but that will be blanked off as I am using the new tank take off from the inbuilt swirl pot.
Peter
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Hi
Offered up the tank to the HPE, need to drill holes in mounting flanges, so cannot completely fit it, but gave me a good idea of how it will look and fit. Initial observation is that the sender is positioned a little too far back, approx 3cm, so not a big deal, just means the tank will have to be tilted down at the front to get the sender out most likely. This is not going to be a regular job.
Also the most important thing for me was the look from the rear and with the tank painted black it should pretty much not be noticeable.
So good result.
The tank could be made slightly larger if anyone needs more than 10 gallons/45 litres, however not an issue for me.
Peter
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Hi
For those who have the pre facelift style of washer bag rather than the later bottles, I just bought one from auto-bella.co.uk
Identical fixing and pump, so simple swap out, currently £25 so not silly money either.
Peter
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Hi
A few more bits to store away.
First up something I said I would not do and that is go for the optional Cromodora wheels which I had on my first HPE. I really liked them, but they are a pain to keep clean as have loads of small pockets unlike the normal wheels, but I kept coming back to how much I liked them….
So seeing a set of 5 on Facebook I tried to buy them, but they are near Taunton and miles away from me. I got so far with the guy but then he just refused to answer any messages. The same wheels are now on Ebay and the seller also refuses to reply to messages. Moving on I noticed a single wheel on Ebay and sent an offer message, again no response, all very frustrating so far. Finally saw a set of 4 in Lincoln, so half an hour up the road or so. After a bit of missed messages an offer was agreed and I collected them today. They look to be in decent condition, but will need refurbishing which I had anticipated anyway. That does mean I have a large quantity of the normal wheels going spare, anyone need any?
Second up is a clutch which came in today, after buying the wrong size one several weeks ago, see engine thread for the protracted buying procedure….
Lastly I had been looking for some decent condition front panels and front floor well etc for the bodywork guy to save him time having to make them instead. Nothing much came along over the last 6 months apart from a possible VX Coupe which Mark has, which I had not been able to get a response as to whether it was usable. Then the other week Simon listed on here his Coupe which has sat in a garage near Nottingham for the last 24 years or so. It is an IE so has the wing liners and hence their was a good chance the front was fairly well spared from rust etc. The end result is I bought it and it should be with my body guy next week together with the HPE so he can get started. In some respects it is shame to part out the Coupe as it is not in too bad a condition, but I need to save the HPE, so any parts I do not use will be offered here and on Facebook so hopefully it can be used to save others. More on it later.
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Hi
HPE left yesterday for the bodywork guy, going to visit on Thursday with wings and doors which I still have and hopefully remove the suspension so guy can have just the body.
Also the donor car is due to be collected today to also be delivered to him.
Will be interesting to see the process and the progress!
Peter
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Exciting times Peter!
Hope all goes to plan.
Mark
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Hi
A bit of an update.
The donor car is at the bodywork guys, but we are probably going to use it to take templates from and not actually use any body panels. Time will tell.
The car has had all the suspension removed and a frame has been made and attached to the body to allow it to be both moved and put on a rotisserie to allow work on the underside etc.
I collected the suspension parts today and will now start taking to bits, cleaning etc, so the long road to having refurbished parts begins. A number of parts will be sent for blasting and powder coating such as the subframe. A few photos of the car currently living on a lift whilst it waits for the lorry underneath it to be finished before work commences, probably in September due to holidays etc.
Also photo of the parts brought back.
Peter
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Had a few days on the suspension parts, probably the muckiest job I have done for a while and glad it is coming to an end. Stripped out all the bolts and just have the outer races of the bearings left to get out with the press which I should get done over the next few days and the inserts to remove from the rear struts (I have new front struts). A few comments on findings.
In general the springs and pads are reusable, though the rear spring plates are all rusted out as per normal.
The brake discs look to be almost new with no obvious wear ridges on them, so if anyone is looking for a cheap set of discs let me know as I have new EBC ones ready to fit.
The front and rear subframes are in pretty good condition which is a positive.
The wishbones are also ok with the original bush metal surround well rusted into the main body. I have ordered the PU set from Mark which uses these metal bodies so will leave well alone.
Removing the rear inner wheel bearing carrier was simple as the hub has two small holes to allow it to be pushed out. The front hubs were another matter as there is no obvious way of removing them. Brute force did not help, nor heat, so careful use of a grind stone was the end result followed by a cold chisel to crack the carrier. Not ideal, but needs must.
Removing the nut from the top of the struts proved to be fairly straight forward unlike my battle with the fronts on the Spider. Used a breaker bar which gave enough grunt. All the strut inserts are completely shot. In general the strut tops and especially the front strut top bearings are in good shape which is a win as I had a load of hassle sourcing parts for the spider. The only item I need to replace is one of the rear strut top mounts which is rusted and no longer usable.
The CV joint nuts on the rear hubs came out with help from the rattle gun, again unlike the Spider and the fronts where the angle grinder was required.
The bearing retaining rings were a mixed result. One rear cam out with the rattle gun, the other rear had to be chiselled out. The fronts had obviously been chiselled tight when replacing the bearing, I assume they did not have the correct tool, so we’re scrap anyway. I just chiselled them out as well.
Out of the three engine mounts the crank pulley one was scrap, but the other two were in remarkably good condition. I have new ones all round so more spares…..
On the rear suspension, just one of the bushes on the locating rods attached to the rear hub was seized and no needs replacing. Also the bolt that it was seized on needs replacing, so if anyone has one….. The other bushes look ok.
The steering rack looks to be in good condition, but yet to remove the gait or etc. The small bush on the passenger side has definitely broken up as per normal, so replacement ordered.
End result is a pile of parts as below
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The rest
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As an aside, with the Spider I spent countless hours cleaning parts sat on the floor with a bowl, brushes and Jizer. This time I decided I am getting too old for that and reusing the degreaser would be a good thing, so have bought an SGS SPW200 45litre parts washer. Looked at second hand, but at £119 new and delivered it was not that much more than what folk were asking for used ones. Should make cleaning stuff a whole lot more enjoyable. I have also bought aqueous based degreaser which I have so far used on my bike chain and tools I used to strip the suspension which works really well.
Peter
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What's the deal with disposing of the water / oil afterwards?
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Hi John
Good question, one reason for getting one is that there is more reuse of cleaner, however I will have to enquire how to dispose of it once it is deemed no longer effective.
Peter
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You also need to fight the urge to leave anything temporarily on the closed lid or it will be out of action for six months minimum.
Ask me how I know... ;D
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Hi Graham
Yes, makes a good table (temporary…!)
Back in Jan I ordered a new screen from Pilkingtons, the last one came in 10 weeks, so expected it within the quoted 12 weeks. It finally arrived yesterday. The manu date on the ticket said during May, so their original timeframe was somewhat out….
I had it delayed for delivery in July as we were away, but that still made approx 6 months to get it. The other odd thing was the delivery. They simply left it by the front door with just the blue outer protection no other wrapping unlike the previous one which was well wrapped.
No idea why the difference, but not as impressed this time round and have let them know, will see what their reaction is.
Peter
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Another delivery today, this time from Mark as well one item he did not have stock of, one of the rear hub bearing retainers. It will be interesting to see how his new version of the wishbone bushes fit relative to the Ferrari 355 ones I used on the Spider.
Also had a note from him as I asked if he had any of the rear strut spring metal supports and the bonnet liner coming in. He was hopeful he will get them available over the coming months as they will be required as will a number of other parts.
Peter
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Hi
A good day on the parts cleanup and sort out.
Sorted out the parts I aim to have powder coated (modern epoxy method) and the parts I aim to clean and paint myself.
Also removed the inserts from the two rear struts which are now ready for the scrap run.
Lastly stripped the adjustable rear tie bars which were pretty gummed up with dirt and rust, though did all come apart after some effort with WD40 and time…..
Peter
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Hi Peter,
The screen I collected was exactly like yours. The only protection is
the blue foam, no wrapping at all. Industry standard?
Are your front struts also capped with similar nuts?
What shocks/inserts are you fitting at the front?
Regards
Nigel
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Hi Nigel
The previous screen came with more wrapping, just a bit miffed about it being dumped on the doorstep like that.
The front and rear OE struts have the same nuts so same tool. Remember the later struts are sealed, so not nuts and you need the collar from Mark to modify them.
I bought some new front struts complete from a guy who had bought them about 4 years ago and never used them. I will hang onto the original fronts just in case I ever need to replace them as the inserts are much cheaper than buying new struts complete normally.
I spent the afternoon cleaning the carpets I have, lots of water and carpet cleaner after hoovering. Not sure how effective it will be to get rid of the old car smell, hopefully reasonable. The carpets are all faded to varying degrees, so going to have a go at dyeing them. Anyone managed to successfully do this on brown carpets?
I also have a n other carpet set waiting for me in France as the current main carpet has a couple of melted sections where someone decided it was ok to weld under the car and leave the carpet in place, idiots.
Peter
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Had a call from the bodywork guy who has had a guy cleaning up the car to get rid of the crud to reveal the full extent of the work needed. I knew the inner wings and around the foot wells for the front seats were bad, but on inspection it appears the front subframe was providing the only real strength to the front of the car.
So a decision had to be made, repairing what is there will be super expensive in time, so it was decided to utilise the front end of the donor coupe I have bought. A bit of a shame as was hoping to just use it for measurements etc, but needs must, so the HPE is now going to be a bit of a Frankenstein car I guess. The bonus for this is that I now get power steering as the Coupe has that.
I therefore spent a long day stripping out the engine which is now in my garage. I was amazed just how complicated the injection version of the engine is compared to the carb version I am used to. If this engine is ok 9n strip down I will most likely use the block etc as a basis for the engine I aim to build.
Peter
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Interesting. Are you happy that the front of the Coupe is good? Some of the later cars didn't hold up that well, reference Alan Cooper's VX.
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Hi Neil
I do feel a little guilty doing this as the body on the Coupe is very good, there rest of it not so, ie mouse visitors etc from it sitting for 20 years in ‘ventilated’ garage. My guy has had a good look and is happy with it and definitely not happy with front of the HPE.
I am going to strip the engine down and do not need any of the IE specific parts, so if anyone needs any spare parts from one let me know.
Peter
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Hi Peter,
I'm curious only ..with no ambitions of adding to your guilt ;) ..but when you say the rest of the IE coupe you bought was too far gone was it interior seats, fixtures and so on ?
As you mentioned ( and as it appeared from the photos ) the body looked quite good, how was it's engine ?
as I said curious only following this thread with interest.
Kind Regards Andrew.
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Hi Andrew
This is from stripping out the interior a little while ago, so memory is a little vague. The seats will need fully retrimming and probably some new foam. Carpet has had some mouse invasion. Parts inside are rusty in places. So a mixed bag really as some parts will clean and be fine. It has electric windows as per late cars. Dash etc looked ok and complete.
The only real serious rust on the car was the rear panel where the number plate goes which was had a hole. The lower part of the doors would need some attention.
As to the engine the PO reported that it was Smokey before being laid up, which I take to mean valve guides or bore issues. I did find some oil just after the air filter box in what I assume is a Throttle body(? Not too clued up on this IE setup) which I thought was a little odd, though being sat for 20 years I guess anything could be now wrong with it. I will be just interested in the block and crank assembly as I have a VX head, new inlet manifold, throttle bodies and plan a 4 branch exhaust for it.
Next time I go over, which will be in approx 6 weeks due to visit to France, I will get some photos.
Peter
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Peter thanks for your reply,
'Photos' are always great. I look forward to seeing them.
Those electric windows would be a nice addition, mine are manual ( despite the car being produced late, in 84! )
and my passenger side window is disengaged somewhere inside, which is something I haven't gotten around to fixing yet.
I probably need to move this job up the list of priorities as it doesn't make for the best introduction to the car when passengers are unable to get their window up or down.
( unless of course you're in a 037 or something similar )
;-)
Thanks for your reply, and good luck with the project.
Andrew.
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Peter,
Sandrew [sorry, had to!] makes a good point there regarding the power windows.
Although you'd have to find the upper binnacle above the wooden centre part
that had the two switches either side of the ashtray.
Nigel
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Hi Nigel/Andrew
Sorry, manual windows is how it is going to stay. I also like to look of the door cards with the winder and definitely do not like the blank used to cover what I assume is the emergency manual hole.
On another topic I have been looking for a while for a carpet set from an early car, ie the brown carpet set. The reason is that some idiot (before I purchased it, and probably a few owners ago) decided to do some welding with the carpet still installled. Result as you would expect are two large melted holes in what is otherwise quite a reasonable carpet.
My searching led me to look in Europe and found one on leboncoin.fr in France earlier this year, but thought it was too much being asked for and the photo of it made it look pretty faded and not inspiring. I left it then, but last visit to France in July, I enquired as to his best price and settled on 110 Euros inc shipping to me in France which I still thought expensive, but I was out of options. The guy shipped it to the wrong village (right postcode, the French have a crazy postcode system which in the sticks can cover villages for 15-20 Kms radius) and By the time I managed to get it delivered I was back in U.K. and it went to one of my neighbours.
So back in France now and I opened the box with tripidation, thinking it would be a pile of xxxx, but no his photos were crap and the carpet is in great condition and colour, so will be able to sort out an original carpet out the two which is a great result.
Here are my crap photos of the carpets, they look much better in real life!
Peter
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On the Spider I replaced the wheel centres with new Lancia badges. They came complete and and comprise if a central disk and outer plastic holder which has fingers to locate in the wheel centre. When I eventually used them the fingers on the new caps started breaking due to rubbish plastic, so I had a look at the original caps and manger to remove the old L centres and tidy up the plastic and insert the new centres into the old outers. These old outers are made of much better material even after 40+ years. So for the HPE I managed to find some new discs and have bought a stock of old caps to choose from. I have yet to find new discs with L in them.
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I have yet to find new discs with L in them.
These Peter?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/403858409211?var=0&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338268676&toolid=10044&customid=CjwKCAjwvsqZBhAlEiwAqAHElaifv7rMkasGzPc6uSGI0o3CpOxIQsFUZevZKU9dVuw9XZ6YzAVXzBoCkP8QAvD_BwE (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/403858409211?var=0&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338268676&toolid=10044&customid=CjwKCAjwvsqZBhAlEiwAqAHElaifv7rMkasGzPc6uSGI0o3CpOxIQsFUZevZKU9dVuw9XZ6YzAVXzBoCkP8QAvD_BwE)
Guy
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Hi Guy
I had not seen them before, I assumed they existed, but only found the Lancia ones, again in Italy.
Thanks
Peter
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Hi
Had some photos and info back from the bodywork guy.
He has been removing the crossmember which sits below the front seats. As I suspected the HPE was quite rusty there. I remember the restoration Honkongphooey did on his and found how poor his car was underneath it, see https://forum.retro-rides.org/thread/71914/1977-lancia-beta-spyder for his restoration.
Also the Coupe was also rusty, but not as bad. So the plan continues, but the split will now be behind the crossmember is the current thinking.
Photos of both cars below, blue is HPE, black is Coupe.
Peter
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Hi Peter,
Going back a little further than you thought.
No matter, nice to see the issues.
I had a thought earlier. You may well have to use the
front subframe from the Coupe as I think the rear body mount
bolts are in a different position on the later cars.
Nigel
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Hi Nigel
Yes, and you are correct the bodywork guy has to modify the jig because they are different.
Every day a school day as they say.
Peter
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A bit of an un-necessary purchase this one. On my Spider despite being S2 it had a few tell tail S1 features as it is a very early S2. One of them was the illuminated red door open lights. Most S2 and later have simple reflectors. I always liked this feature, but they are hard to find and usually expensive so I had written them off. However trolling through leboncoin.fr whilst here in France I saw a pair at realistic money and decided to buy them. They will need some cleaning up, but are probably in better condition than the ones originall were on the Spider. They also came with the door seal etc which is a full result.
Now onto looking for mirrors and window winder handles…..
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Hi Peter,
nice touch :)
FYI, Bielstein sell these new: https://www.bielstein.com/Light-for-door-Carello-14784718 (https://www.bielstein.com/Light-for-door-Carello-14784718)
I've bought them for my HPE (allthough that's an I.E., but I also like the feature), but haven't come round to fitting them yet – I'm also planning on changing the manual windows to electric and intend to do both jobs in one go ;))
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Hi
I did not know they were still available new and not silly price either. I paid 33 Euros Inc shipping for everything inc the door routing part so happy with the deal.
Peter
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Hi Peter,
nice touch :)
FYI, Bielstein sell these new: https://www.bielstein.com/Light-for-door-Carello-14784718 (https://www.bielstein.com/Light-for-door-Carello-14784718)
I've bought them for my HPE (allthough that's an I.E., but I also like the feature), but haven't come round to fitting them yet – I'm also planning on changing the manual windows to electric and intend to do both jobs in one go ;))
And guess what else uses them? Stratos and Gamma and multiple Ferraris. The Alfa 164 has something the same size too. The ones in the link are correct for the Stratos with the Carello logo in a circular pattern and the price is excellent. There's not much call from them from the replica world as the door mouldings don't incorporate the recesses to hold them. Yet. It's something I modified on my car 30 odd years ago when I built it. Sadly my donor Beta only had the reflectors but it wasn't difficult to find the lights in scrapyards back in those days!
Guy
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I'm also planning on changing the manual windows to electric and intend to do both jobs in one go ;))
Kevin, that'll be interesting.
You may well find, if not already, that
the wiring is already in place, tucked away at the rear of the centre
console.
Nigel
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Back from France, Whilst out there I exchanged messages with a guy who is breaking a few Betas looking for the cover for the seatbelt retainer on the pre facelift HPE which is missing on my car. After a bit of a wait, he confirmed he had one, then said the price was 70 Euros which for a small cover was way too much in my view. I did offer a compromise, but he was obviously not for moving. No idea why these folk think that parts like this are worth so much or am I just getting old and grumpy….?
As the original will be re-covered I suspect I may end up making one, but will keeping looking out for another car being parted out.
Peter
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Just before leaving for France I ordered a fan for the HPE. As I am using the original size radiator, I have kept to the 10” size of the fan, but wanted a modern take on it rather than keep the old original which from memory is fairly inefficient. I have certainly blown a 16A fuse on the Spider, so after some Googling, reading review I settled on a slim line fan from Mishimoto. They appear to be well regarded with U.K. suppliers and come with lifetime warranty from the manufacturer. They also do race versions, so all in all they should be producing reputable products. Certainly the fan does appear well made. I also bought a mounting kit which may or may not be of use.
My plan is to fit it to the Spider as a test and see how it performs. I have no flow data for the OEM fan, so it will be a suck it and see. If it works ok on the Spider then I would expect the uprated radiator in the HPE will be ok as well.
Peter
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Small warning on this type of fan, they can have push or pull type blades Peter and that dictates which side of the radiator they're mounted. Getting it wrong means reduced airflow and some serious damage. From my Beta days I think there's enough room infront of the radiator to mount a pusher type and leave the original puller type in place?
Guy
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I'll be watching this with interest, as I need to squeeze out every millimetre of space between radiator and carbs and a push type unit in front of the radiator is one way of 'pinching an inch' or two...
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Coolant temperatures on the Stratos replica were a worry for a while - I'm running a 3.0 V6 through a Fiat X1/9 radiator. On the plus side there is more coolant in the system but conversely it has to be pumped further. What made the biggest differences were twofold, a second fan on the radiator cured rising temperatures at tickover (albeit with the occasional pump of the throttle to move the coolant around) but the biggest change for when the car was moving was to duct the airflow coming in the grille to go through the matrix and stop is escaping around the side, top and bottom of the radiator. Same principle will apply to the Beta, make sure any air coming through the grille has to go through the radiator!
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Hi Guy
Thanks for the tip. This fan
https://www.mishimoto.co.uk/mishimoto-slim-line-electric-radiator-fan-10.html#features (https://www.mishimoto.co.uk/mishimoto-slim-line-electric-radiator-fan-10.html#features)
Can be used in either push or pull configurations.
I am probably going to stick with pull as I should have plenty of space with using downdraught throttle bodies in the final design.
I also take on board the funnelling which is pretty good on the pre facelift front grill configuration which I aim to keep with the same format of radiator as original.
Graham, which configuration of radiator do you have as on the previous facelift the radiator sits further back than the later cars and hence more room in front to mount a push fan.
Peter
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I mounted push and pull fans on my custom alloy radiator for the Tuned VX Engine going into my Spyder. We will see if this is good enough!
Eric
PS the Monte uses twin 10 inch fans pulling. These came from Car Builder Solutions and have been excellent.
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Hi Peter,
My radiator configuration at present is OE S2FL, with the fan behind the rad in a pull configuration. I'll be using DCOE45s and am hoping that I can find room to fit a plenum chamber over/round the carb bellmouths, but I know it will be very, very tight space wise. So whatever I can do to increase space between radiator and carbs will be done. I'm certainly looking at a custom radiator and even trying to move the radiator forwards, if indeed that is possible, to try and squeeze a plenum chamber in. Until the refurbished engine and carbs are in the car I won't know just how much (or more accurately, how little) space I will have to work with.
Eric has already warned me that it's borderline whether it's possible or not...
Graham
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Hi Graham
Good luck with that. I too have to make a custom plenum, but it is on top of a downdraught configuration so much simpler to route the cold air and avoid the hot radiator air.
I decided to put a chap on Ebay out of his misery. He had listed this wheel for months it seemed without a taker, so made an offer which was accepted. I now have 5 rims to choose from, hopefully all will be serviceable when refurbished to give me complete set.
I now need to start selling the standard rims I have accumulated over the years, anybody need any?
Peter
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On with buying spree, does it ever end?
I had posted here and also on Facebook if anyone had any of the angular mirrors which came on some of the early Betas. I much prefer them to the flat back ones which were also supplied.
One person replied, Aaron, from the U.K., saying he had a pair NOS which he purchased in Italy, but wanted a black pair for his Stratos replica build. That was lucky as the HPE had come with a pair of original black ones which I was not going to use. So the deal was done and I now have an amazing condition pair of these mirrors. The only issue is that one of the mirror glass has marks, but Guy kindly sent me some replacements which he had made, so careful replacement will be required.
Peter
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Karma! Glad I was able to help Aaron to come to the realisation that his mirrors belong on a Beta! He now knows that the left side mirror on a Stratos differs but I've been able to help him on that front too!
Everyone is happy!
Guy
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Hi Guy
Thanks, yes it would have been criminal to paint these.
Peter
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Hi
Back on to colours for the car……
My burnt orange period has passed and now back to ordinary colours. My current leaning is a minty green metallic finish, but interestingly I have not seen any original Betas with anything like that. The metallic ones I have seen are silver/champagne etc, no greens other than solid colours. Anyone know different?
Photo is of the kind of colour, though not necessarily this particular one.
Peter
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it gets my vote......
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Hi Neil
Thanks.
Also have contacted a local trimmer to get started on the interior which on the HPE is a way bigger job than the Spider, so expect it to take some time. Still have to finalise the leather colour and feel with him. On the HPE seats originally there are sections of vinyl, but decided to have the whole of the original material and vinyl replaced with leather. There was a post recently on Facebook from someone in Europe I think with the vinyl sides, but possibly leather face and think full leather would be better, the colour is also not my choice. See photos.
Peter
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Hi Peter,
I like that pale green idea. It's got the period-look about it.
On the rear seats, it's critical to get all
the horizontal stitching and seams lined up. Luckily, it's the only area where it matters.
Your example photo shows otherwise.
Best regards
Nigel
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Hi Nigel
Good point which will be passed on!
Peter
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With going for the power steering rack I wanted to refurb it with new seals before using it. From what I have managed to find the kit I need is AS18285. The complication is that ZF sold off its rack business years ago and suppliers of kits are few and far between. There is a guy in the US offering on Ebay at a price, but eventually I tracked down a manufacturer Corteco. They only wholesale so I needed to go through one of their distis, Jpat 01934 852772, who were very helpful and one is now on order. The bad news is that delivery is sometime next year as one of the seals is not in stock. Not a big issue at present but hope that it arrives in a reasonable timeframe. Quoted cost was around £85 for the kit.
If anyone knows of a n other source I would be interested.
Peter
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Hi
Back on to colours for the car……
My burnt orange period has passed and now back to ordinary colours. My current leaning is a minty green metallic finish, but interestingly I have not seen any original Betas with anything like that. The metallic ones I have seen are silver/champagne etc, no greens other than solid colours. Anyone know different?
Photo is of the kind of colour, though not necessarily this particular one.
Peter
Definitely like that. Both thumbs up from me.
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Thanks Graham, pretty sure I am going for it now having thought about it for a little while now, just need to finalise the exact colour.
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Greetings again Peter,
On the subject of sound deadening and insulation, I watched an
episode of ' Home Built by Jeff' on YouTube tonight. He discusses
this topic in reasonable detail and points to a few no no's
and some go to's.
Principally, he's using Foam-backed Mass Loaded Vinyl. In large flat
areas, Silent Coat or similar underneath.
I don't recall reading about this stuff up until now.
Hindsight is under-rated.
Nigel
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Peter,
I would urge you to consider originality with your superb restoration. Even if you can't bring yourself to paint the car in the original colour, I think you should prioritise using a correct period paint code. The same protocol for the interior - fabric facings and vinyl sides, or leather facings with vinyl sides were the original fitment, so why not go with that?
Carl
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Hi Carl
If this was a wholly original car I would be approaching it more like I did with the Spider, ie keeping it mainly original. The fact is that the car will a long way from original so a lot more freedom to experiment. The car will end up with a later complete front end from IE Coupe and have a modern injection system installed. Outwardly it will probably look original from 10 feet away, but not to anyone who knows.
This is very much my voyage down a what can I do which makes sense to update and make comfy one of these without spending silly amounts.
Hope that answers the logic I have!
Peter
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Bit of an aside, but been debating about buying an electric impact gun for a while now. I have an old air one which I have used with mixed success, and given it is one of the few uses I have for the compressor, it is a right faff digging it out just to use the gun. Also I had a totally fruitless time removing the bolt from the oil drive shaft on an engine with it. So I finally bit the bullet and placed an order for one. I wanted to buy a major brand one rather than an unknown Chinese one. Also I really wanted as powerful as possible within sensible cost. I do not mind heavy as it is for removing problem nuts, not as a general use item where weight in the hand is an issue. I much prefer a manual ratchet for normal jobs. So which brand/model? We recently had a new kitchen and the installers used Dewalt tools and were obviously well used, appeared robust etc and they were obviously happy with them. The market leader if you view any YouTube restorers etc is Milwaukee, but their tools tend to be much more expensive. So looking at the Dewalt range the DCF899N looked to offer good torque and not silly expensive. Order placed as well as a 5.0A battery and charger. It arrived yesterday and I had a quick play today (I bought an impact socket set the other week) and it effortlessly undid the oil drive shaft and crank pulley nut on the Coupes engine I have to strip. Full result
As I mentioned this is way too heavy for use all the time, but for stubborn nuts will save me a bunch of time. Next task will be a pair of CV hub nuts….
Note there are two versions of this wrench, the DCF899N and DCF899HN, the H stands for Hog ring whereas the one I bought has the detent pin, it makes not difference to me, so just went for the cheaper one.
Peter
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Bought the same one for work a year ago, use it all the time, your arms get used to extra weigh after time ;D since then I've replaced all my air tools to DeWalt/Mac (both made by DeWalt)
-
Hi Peter
I do have a Milwaukee and it is amazing and still good after a few years now. From memory 700NM which should be easier to buy cheaply these days. It completely outperforms both of my Air Impact which I will eventually just sell.
Eric
PS I have a cordless Milwaukee SDS Impact drill that out performs my Bosch Professional Corded item
-
Just to add to the mix my Makita cordless impact won't unfold wheel if they're more than about 80 lb/ft but did spin the crank pulley nut off without trouble and that was WAY tighter. Go figure. Stiction from the conical seat perhaps?
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Back to the subject. In anticipation of the power steering being installed, and the original pump looking its age, I had the possibly silly idea of using an electric hydraulic pump instead of the engine driven one. Why you may ask, well I thought it would be interesting to try one and having it independent of the engine (except the alternator will need to be beefed up to drive it) seemed the way to go. I also was unsure how available new original pumps were, though I suspect the Gamma pump is much the same as the rack appears to be the same ZF family.
So to that end after a bit of Googling and Ebay search I ended up with a Peugeot 307 unit as a ‘try out for £30’. According to info I have found the original Beta/Gamma pump is rated at 100bar and the 307 one at 80bar, so will be interesting to see how that impacts the feel. One reason for picking the 307 unit was it can be made to work stand alone even though there are additional inputs which appear to moderate the pressure put out. These inputs can be left unused, but maybe scope for more investigation once convinced the unit will work. If it does prove successful then I would go for a new unit on the final build.
My backup plan is to revert to the original pump type.
Photo of unit I bought.
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That's a hugely interesting idea Peter.
It offers the scope to reduce the length of hoses and an almost anywhere
fitment location. Somewhere above the gearbox comes to mind.
Initial observations are that the cable sizes are not huge, suggesting that
it won't need too many amps.
A pore over the 307 wiring diagram should show you the original fuse rating.
Also, I wonder if the 307 fitment include a remote
reservoir, as it's not showing much spare fluid capacity. Maybe doesn't matter.
Really easy to bench-test as well. Knowing your refurbished rack is leak-free, bonus.
Good thinking
Regards, N.
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Hi Nigel
I think the fuse rating is around 60A, which is high, but will test the actual current. As to integrated reservoir, one reason I wanted it. Keeps it simple. Most of these type have integrated.
Yes, being able to test on the bench was a big plus for me.
Peter
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Take it that you view this as easier than fitting the more modern electric motor driven column described elsewhere on the Forum Peter?
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Hi Neil
On the HPE/Coupe/Spyder I cannot see the space available for the motor. Also the main reason is that the HPE will be having a power steering bulkhead, so a manual rack will not fit, hence motor driven is not an option.
Peter
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Hi Neil
On the HPE/Coupe/Spyder I cannot see the space available for the motor. Also the main reason is that the HPE will be having a power steering bulkhead, so a manual rack will not fit, hence motor driven is not an option.
Peter
Yes, just remembered, the electric column was fitted to a saloon.....
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Hi Peter
On the plus side the Beta PS rack is physically stronger so less likely to flex under load and stand up better to our pot hole strewn roads.
Eric
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Hi Neil
On the HPE/Coupe/Spyder I cannot see the space available for the motor. Also the main reason is that the HPE will be having a power steering bulkhead, so a manual rack will not fit, hence motor driven is not an option.
Peter
Yeah but no but yeah but . . . I might be wrong but I thought I have seen late cars with manual racks that fit power steering style bulk heads? 1.6 engine very late cars maybe? Lhd only? Did we get late 1.6 car in the UK?
I also saw a LHD Berlina for sale in Spain recently, with what looked like factory PS. And I thought I had the only Berlina with PS (albeit electric) .
Sorry I digress.
Ian
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Hi Ian
You may very well be correct. My comment is pretty much from what has been written before and noting that the mounting for the ZF power steering is different to the TRW manual rack.
Peter
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Hi Ian
I thought all later LHD just got Power Steering and it was just the RHD that was not available until the IE and VX for production cost reasons. The hydraulic PS and manual rack bulkheads are very different. I have converted to hydraulic PS twice now. Once by modifying the OE non PS firewall with lots of drill out spot welds swap over mounts and create different holes and also by directly swapping in an IE Firewall. Neither is simple or cheap if you are paying someone to do it.
Eric
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Hi Eric,
Occasionally I search through Betas for sale in Italy with the hope of one day having one in my garage in Puglia, southern Italy. Using search sites such as autoscout24 and Subito.it, I have noticed a lot of late cars that look like VX I.e. but with 1.3 or 1.6 carb engines. These cars do not have visible PS reservoirs or pumps and I believe the manual racks bolt up in the same fashion as the PS cars that we are familiar with. I may be wrong as I’ve not seen one up close, but the picture is I believe the rack they use.
Cheers Ian
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Hi Ian
You may very well be correct. My comment is pretty much from what has been written before and noting that the mounting for the ZF power steering is different to the TRW manual rack.
Peter
Hi Peter,
I think you are doing the best conversion by going hydraulic PS.
Whilst my Berlina feels just right with its electric PS on a coupe 3.5 turns rack, I would prefer the hydraulic option on a coupe/HPE/spider.
My VX with electric PS would be a backward step. The rack ratio and feel is perfect on the hydraulic PS cars imo.
The main advantage of the electric conversion was its relative simplicity. Once it had been fabricated it becomes a bolt in bolt out retrofit with no mods to the chassis.
Cheers
Ian
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Hi Ian
Interesting photo, is that a TRW rack with mounting brackets the same as the ZF power steering rack? Wonder if they ever did a RHD version as well?
Peter
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Hi Ian
I have just learnt something showing I do not know nearly enough about LHD Betas. That really does look like a manual rack that would bolt up to a LHD PS firewall.
Cheers
Eric
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I think you are doing the best conversion by going hydraulic PS.
Whilst my Berlina feels just right with its electric PS on a coupe 3.5 turns rack, I would prefer the hydraulic option on a coupe/HPE/spider.
My VX with electric PS would be a backward step. The rack ratio and feel is perfect on the hydraulic PS cars imo.
The main advantage of the electric conversion was its relative simplicity. Once it had been fabricated it becomes a bolt in bolt out retrofit with no mods to the chassis.
Cheers
Ian
Hi Ian,
Pardon my ignorance, but are there any physical or space drawbacks to fitting electrical PS to a Spider? I assume that the rack ratio on a Spider is not as suitable as that on the Berlina? When I finally get my Spider repatriated to the UK, one of the to do tasks is fitting electric PS (assuming it's a viable approach).
Graham
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Hi Ian
Interesting photo, is that a TRW rack with mounting brackets the same as the ZF power steering rack? Wonder if they ever did a RHD version as well?
Peter
Hi Peter,
I’m not sure which manufacturer made these racks. They do indeed mount like a ZF PS rack. If I had to guess, they probably came about when the last series coupe/HPE were rolling off production lines. I don’t know if it’s unique to LHD cars but it only appears on the lower spec late cars.
Did we get late 1.3 1.6 cars in the UK? Or were all the late UK cars i.e/VX with PS?
Cheers
Ian
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Hi Graham,
I’m not 100% sure if there is space to fit electric PS on a coupe/spider/hpe. But. . . . Simply looking under the dash of my coupe and HPE it looks just as possible as my berlina.
Caveat; I’ve not measured yet. But the berlina was tight down to the last few millimetres.
Honestly, I think it’s doable.
Oh and the rack ratios are pretty much the the same. Only the PS cars are significantly different.
Cheers
Ian
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Hi Ian
Interesting photo, is that a TRW rack with mounting brackets the same as the ZF power steering rack? Wonder if they ever did a RHD version as well?
Peter
Hi Peter,
I’m not sure which manufacturer made these racks. They do indeed mount like a ZF PS rack. If I had to guess, they probably came about when the last series coupe/HPE were rolling off production lines. I don’t know if it’s unique to LHD cars but it only appears on the lower spec late cars.
Did we get late 1.3 1.6 cars in the UK? Or were all the late UK cars i.e/VX with PS?
Cheers
Ian
The late 1300 & 1600s with the 'Corporate' grille were not made in RHD.
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Hi Graham,
I’m not 100% sure if there is space to fit electric PS on a coupe/spider/hpe. But. . . . Simply looking under the dash of my coupe and HPE it looks just as possible as my berlina.
Caveat; I’ve not measured yet. But the berlina was tight down to the last few millimetres.
Honestly, I think it’s doable.
Oh and the rack ratios are pretty much the the same. Only the PS cars are significantly different.
Cheers
Ian
Thanks Ian. Once the car is back in the UK I'll make that one of the first jobs I get on with. In the meantime I'll revisit your thread dealing with the conversion and start acquiring the necessary parts.
Ideally I'd like to make it so that I can revert to standard if I cock it all up in the fabrication. To do this what OE Beta parts will I need to find duplicates of (not including the Prius parts)? I'm guessing a complete Beta coupe/spider steering column and clutch pedal for starters?
Cheers!
Graham
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Hi Graham,
And a spare lower steering shaft with the UJs.
Think that was all
Ian
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Thanks Ian.
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Hi All
A bit of electrical ideas now.
First up I was going to convert the HPE to fixed headlights rather than the auto adjusting ones which are standard on the HPE. The main reason was the original setup was completely shot and although I did get offered another, I decided as it 40 years old, not likely to be that long before it met its maker so to speak. However having seen the nifty little motor than Nigel had installed as a rear window opener in his HPE, it got me thinking that one of those with the standard HPE light, add a switch in the cabin and I could have manually adjustable lights as per modern cars. Photo of the motor is below, they cost around £25 each and are suitable for external use apparently. Another for the back burner for when the car comes back.
On a more general idea, I have been watching Retropower YouTube videos since they started and they often replace the standard fuse box/relays with a PDM unit. Given I am retiring from scratch, I think I am going to look to go this route. If anyone has experience of them I would appreciate your comments.
Peter
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Following on from the subject of the headlight adjuster, I bought a double throw double pole momentary switch. This is needed to use the motor as the motor needs +12V between the red and black wires to extend and -12V across them to retract, ie reverse the voltage to go the other way. The only way of doing this with a single switch is to use a double pole switch. I temporarily wired it up to the motor and it works very nicely, just need a car to install it into…..
Peter
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I had mentioned this previously and had the same issue with one of the outer CV joints on the Spider.
There appears to be a CV joint listed for the Beta which physically fits, but when you tighten it, it binds on the bearing retaining ring. Ie the depth of the part which protrudes through the ring is way too short. The ones I bought which were supposed to be correct are FAG ones, see photo below.
On the original CV joints there is a removable metal ‘dust’ cover which fits over the flange which goes though the retaining ring. On the FAG CVs this cover is built into the CV joint itself and it is this which protrudes too far. My solution is to have the flange extended by about 5.5mm to just smaller than the inner part of the retainer ring. I realise this will reduce the overall strength of the CV joint where the metal has been removed so time will tell, but the one on the Spider has Ben trouble free so far.
Peter
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Hi Peter,
I’m not 100% sure but I believe this CV joint problem with the oversize shoulder fouling the retaining ring comes from later cars that use very similar CV joints. By later cars I’m referring to Lancia Thema/Fiat Croma/Alfa 164. I think the dimensions and spline counts are all but identical with the exception of the shoulder that is causing the fouling.
Bit of a nuisance but I guess a brand new joint that needs fettling is better than no supply at all.
Cheers
Ian
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Hi Ian
That may very well be the answer. I may have been unlucky with them this time and on my Spider I bought two separately, one was as original and I could fit the ‘dust’ cover from the the old CV, but the other had to be modified. I have also seen on here at least one other person who has had this issue.
I think that there are/were a mix of different manufacturers with varying degrees of compatibility….
It would be useful to know of any part nos which are correct.
Peter
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I might have to go through this process soon. Once Stratos2 has gone to it's next owner then Beta7 will be dragged into the garage for further dismemberment. Removal of the remains of the drivetrain are high on the priority list with the driveshafts to be overhauled and stored. I'm not expecting to have to replace any of the CV joints, just a complete disassembly, clean, regrease and reassemble with new boots/clips. This (hope) is based on 40 years experience of Beta direvshafts! The donor Car for Stratos1 was a 1978 Beta Coupe whose driveshafts had done 80k (I think) and were overhauled and have now done another 100k in a car that puts a lot more strain on them. (It will spin it's back wheels courtesy of 220hp but it's breaking the traction of 345 width rubber with the benefit of extra grip from weight transfer).
In all that time I've stripped and regressed the assemblies twice and fitted new boots and only had one failure of an inner joint.
But I'm hoping Beta7's CV's will still be strong for a while yet!
Guy
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Hi Guy
Guess I am just over cautious and with the history of them being unknown, replacing is simpler or at least that was the theory. The upside is that they are one of the cheaper parts.
I did a quick Google and sure enough these parts are listed for a whole bunch of Lancia and others including later Lancia such as Them etc. No experience of the later hubs, but can only guess they have different gaps to the hub.
Peter
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Hi Guy
I think you are right in most cases although my Volumetrico Supercharged Montecarlo needed replacements as they developed obvious slop and shunt. I built up new ones for the VX Beta Spyder, but where I got them from is lost in the sands of time!
Eric
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Hi Guy
Guess I am just over cautious and with the history of them being unknown, replacing is simpler or at least that was the theory. The upside is that they are one of the cheaper parts.
I did a quick Google and sure enough these parts are listed for a whole bunch of Lancia and others including later Lancia such as Them etc. No experience of the later hubs, but can only guess they have different gaps to the hub.
Peter
Hi Peter,
It’s been a long time since I changed a wheel bearing on a Thema but I think the bearings are secured in the hub with a snap ring instead of the castellated threaded ring that the Beta uses. For this reason there is more space for a larger shoulder on the CV joint and this is why they foul in a Beta.
Cheers
Ian
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Hi Ian
That makes sense.
Thanks for that
Peter
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Unlike Guy, they are obviously more hardy in Formby, I have been waiting for the temp to improve. Spent a good portion of today in the garage starting the big strip down of the IE engine from the Coupe. It is pretty grubby on the outside, but so far having removed the ancillaries, inlet manifold, timing belt, pulleys and water rails, it is looking fairly solid so hoping the internals are in usable condition, especially the block and crank.
I also managed to remove the bearing from the front hubs.
Peter
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As a bit of an aside, I have stripped out the seat mechanisms from the Coupe. These are from around 82 and as usual the fabric is worn and most likely mouse attacked. The interesting bit is that the mechanism is pretty much the same as the seats in my 76 HPE which was a pleasant surprise as it gives me some spare parts I was not expecting as the seats are very different to look at.
Peter
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What sort of fabric is it Peter? The blue/grey by any chance? If you don't need it please save it for me - whilst mine is okay I'd like to be able to experiment with putting a cover through the washing machine to see if it shrinks! Or even gets cleaner!
On the subject of seat mechanisms - i have yet to attack mine, neither backrest flips and I don't think the backrest adjustor knobs work either!
Despite living a few miles from Formby all my life on moving here I became aware of a phenomenon know as the Formby Bubble - it seems that this area is well known for being very mild, we didn't have any snow here despite towns 2 miles away having a good covering recently! The only slight negatives are it's windy and, at night, you can hear the container ships engines as they chug away down the Mersey Channel!
Guy
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Guy,
I have some original old cloth that came off my 83 hpe during
the re-upholstery job.
It's the chequered centre style.
However much of it was separated at the seams to form
patterns. What remains is not in the best of condition, the good bits went
to Denmark and Aus last year.
You're welcome to have some bits and pieces.
Nigel
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Hi Guy
Photos will follow, you are welcome to the seats and when I have decided what to use the rest of the mechanisms. My main reason for stripping them was the plastic covers a couple of which were not great on the HPE.
Peter
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Thanks Nigel but the interior on my car isn't the chequered type, it's a blue/grey wool (?) type, I'll take a picture and post it later. The offer is much appreciated though!
Peter, thanks, I'll take whatever remains of your interior! It may be in better condition or allow me to experiment on cleaning and repadding to cushions.
Guy
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hi Peter, my eBay purchased visors arrived today, correct pattern/material but both are drivers side (no vanity mirror). One is markedly thicker than the other. The bagged (NOS) one is the thinner of the two. If the material on your seats is the same pattern please keep it for me once you've dismantled them!
Cheers
Guy
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Hi Guy
I think what I have is different, photo of seat base below
Peter
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Sadly that's a completely different animal Peter. Never mind, hopefully mine will clean and stitch up like new!
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Hi Guy
I did suspect as much.
Peter
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We have movement on the body restoration at long last…….
Front of Coupe now separated, apparently has loads of under seal and gunk, so is now booked to go off to be stripped. I have my reservations, but John, body guy, is happy that it will not cause a problem. Fingers crossed.
Peter
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Finding a bit more time to try to tick off a few 'to do soon' items.
Started a couple of days ago 'un-warping' and repairing the door/rear trim cards where needed. One door card was perfect amazingly, the other has just the small part in the corner next to the pull up knob for the door latch broken and previously glued very badly. I am repairing this as per the Spider door cards with a soft fabric and PVA which worked very successfully before. The rear trim card which has a bolt on foam pad has a few issues. A couple of the bolts holding the foam pad sheared, so have drilled and had to retap one of the inserts. Not a problem as all hidden once assembled. The main part however is both warped and has broken sections which will need a fair amount of repair. First job was to soak the card and leave with weights to try to remove the warping, slowly it is working.
I have also had a play with the electric power steering pump and ZF rack. I managed to buy an original Peugeot 307 hose set which has the all important fitment for the pump and took that and the original HPE hose to a hydraulic specialist company near to us who took the existing two hoses and made up a test hose to allow high pressure to go from the pump to the rack. The low pressure return was simple enough to make up myself from the rest of the hoses.
The pump has two electrical connectors, one has two beefy power wires, GND and +12V, the other has a 9 pin connector with various wires attached. Simply attaching power to the two pin connector does nothing. After reading a little (Google was my friend) I found out the pinouts of the 9 pin, as here
1 steering angle sensor (n/s/f wheel movement)
2 not used
3 K line
4 vehicle speed signal
5 ign positive
6 steering angle sensor (o/s/r wheel movement)
7+8 not used
9 Bsi output (engine running signal)
Also from someone on a Kit car forum where I first learnt of this pump, there was also the info that you need to attach pin 5 to the ignition switch (+12V) and pin 9 to start the pump (+12V to start). Obviously when installed you would sequence these to suit, but for test I simply attached all three to +12V to the +ve of a battery and GND to the -ve. New ATF fluid was added and amazingly it ran quite sweetly with no leaks thankfully (as it is on the bench). My subjective test was to then attach the lower steering column shaft and try to turn it by hand both with and without the pump running. As I have no yardstick to how it should feel with the original pump I have no idea how effective the electric pump is, but it certainly makes a difference which is a start. I guess I will not know until I can fit the rack in the car with wheels attached. However it feels like positive progress.
Peter
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Have visited the body guy today and we finally have movement and some decisions made……
The front of the HPE has been cut off and the front of the Coupe has been offered up and is at the point of fixing into position. Alignment has been a challenge as the original subframe mounting points are different on the later cars, so the original HPE ones were no use. Also the sills on the HPE are a mess, one of the horizontal door ones is at an angle, the outer ones do not look correct and the inner ones have been previously repaired by adding in a simple sheet of metal fixed with a mixture of spot welding and pop rivets, nothing like as strong as the original inner sill with pressings to increase its strength. Luckily the Coupe sills are still 100% good. The afternoon was spent checking the fit of the windscreen and doors amongst other measurements.
I have also bought a couple of outer sill covers from Mark which we will attach later, but are useful as a reference for now.
The plan is to get the two halves welded together as is and have it sent to Prostrip in Nottingham to have all the paint/sealer/underseal removed. Then attend to the repairs which will include replacing the inner and outer sills. Anyone know where I can get inner sills from? Currently we are looking to have to make them in house, but prefer to buy them if possible. The doors will be attended to separately as it was felt there were too many places that the liquid residue could hide after dipping.
Peter
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Peter,
I wish I'd been there to see this! Picked the wrong weekend!
It's good to see the progress, albeit just the start.
Regards
Nigel
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There is no rushing John the body guy…..
Will be really interesting to see what comes back from stripping, though it is the frame only, the doors will not be included to reduce the risk associated with residual moisture etc.
Peter
-
Car due to go off to strippers next week now. Just a few photos of the joining points of the two halves, not especially interesting, but just wanted to keep a record. What was sort of interesting was where the sills join, the inner parts where the carpet lays are different profiles, so he had to cut out sections from the front of the HPE to allow it to marry up ok. All looks very rough and ready to my eye, but this is to get it through the stripping process and then they can really get to work on it.
One point John made was that they are staggering the welds where strength is needed such as on the window surround so we do not have a single point of possible weakness.
Peter
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On another topic I mentioned before, I was going to look at using a Programmable Distribution Module instead of the conventional fuse box/relay setup. After spending some time looking into them I have decided that the cost and potential for being stranded really make it not an avenue I want to go down. I also was as part of this looking to consolidate all the dash switches into one Canbus interface which was possible at not too an expensive route, but you need something to talk to and decode it, which I would not have without some serious effort, so that has also been knocked on the head at least for now.
One question I do have is has anyone relocated their fuse box etc into the passenger footwell? I found one of the control modules in the IE in there and it looks a likely place to house it, even if I have to sacrifice some or all of the glovebox space. This would eliminate the worry about engine location and hence environmental issues and get rid of the spaghetti above the steering wheel hopefully.
I had toyed with the idea of a new original fuse box out of a facelift car, but they are pretty expensive to buy so was looking at a more generic one where you can add relay modules and you wire it yourself, so giving flexibility in wire sizes etc. They also use the blade style fuses which personally I prefer.
Any comments/ideas would be appreciated…….
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Hi Peter
Re-wiring to modern Distribution is a bravery step too far for me. I did of course take trouble to keep Modern added systems on their own loom with appropriate relays and blade fuses. I should probably have used micro relays to save a lot of space. With the full spec ECU it is a LOT of wiring and not actually finished thanks to my house move trauma.
Of course if you understand the OE wiring and it's flaws it is perfectly possible to change the wiring layout and lengths to put relays and fuses in the glove box area. Earlier cars are easier because you do not have the interconnect snakes nest inside the fuse box to decode. I went for a new OE late fuse box and built a new loom in thicker thin wall cable if in doubt adding relays to the well known OE error areas. I will be building a heat shield to reduce the damage done by the exhaust that has most late cars running brittle wires.
Eric
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I'm aware of the fusebox weaknesses in the Beta loom and also issues that arose in the Stratos replica by putting loads through the column stalks so for my restoration I'm also considering a complete rewire to include relocation of fusebox to inside the car but going with a Car Builder Solutions fusebox. I'm also looking at adding an ABS system to the car....
After rewiring the Stratos one circuit at a time I no longer see spaghetti as the nightmare it might appear! Good solid earth points are essential and I will be going with ring terminals bolted down rather than the spade type bathing points..
Getting the original fusebox away from the heat and moisture in the engine bay is a positive move. Go for it! Is losing the glovebox an issue? The only thing I keep in the Alfa glovebox is a torch and fire extinguisher. There's plenty of space for those elsewhere. It's probably where I'm going to put my fusebox, especially if it can be done with a false back.
Guy
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Hi Guy
Not precious about glovebox. On the Spider I have a USB point for phone charging and not much else.
Just waiting for a 16 fuse/7 micro relay unit which appears widely available inc Car Builders. That should give me an idea how practical it is to fit there. Main obstacle in that area is the brake mech which sits behind the servo.
Peter
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Just been informed body is off to strippers so nervous 4 weeks to see what we have left. Out to lunch with some old friends the other day. One of which has a brother who recently bought an old Alfa Spider. Spent £18k on it and has just had it dipped. Result is a body which needs 500 hours plus loads of new panels thus making it questionable about going further. Hopefully the HPE will not be in that league!!!
Peter
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Sorry, boring photo again, but arrived at strippers….
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On a possibly more interesting note, the fuse box and relay strip arrived. I was amazed how small they are, not sorted out all the yellow plastic pieces yet, but looks to be good for the job. Also you can cascade them as the mounting feet can be removed and any number can be clipped together. They also supply one for more normal size relays, though you only get 4 relays in the strip. The connectors appear rated for up to 2.5mm cable, so will cover most of the requirements in the car.
Peter
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Hi Peter
The same MTA kit I have used from Pole Volt and Vehicle Wiring Products to make up ECU Fuse Boxes except of course I should have saved space by using the micro relay versions.
Eric
I also use AMP 6 way Power distribution blocks to avoid the bundle of wires hanging off the battery terminals.
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Hi Eric
I will look into those blocks, thanks.
Following on from the wiper entry in the electrical section. I now have an intermittent relay and a mountable holder for it. These are made by Hella, but have seen others from Bosch and a brand called Cargo. They also fit lesser pinned cube relays and can be connected together, so a possible solution for normal size relays such as flasher units.
Peter
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Hi
Visited Prostrip Nottingham today as the body has been dipped and is now ready for collection. No great surprises which is a relief as there is enough work to do that we knew of. Should be collected in the next few days and hopefully the work can get started. Main work will be the rear strut towers which are pretty bad as well as new inner sills etc.
Here are a few really bad photos as the unit was badly lit.
Peter
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Slight tangent. On the Spider I never wanted any audio system as I speculated the noise from outside and wind would make having a sound system pretty redundant. I was pretty much correct, so happy with it as is.
On the HPE however I am hoping for a much more quiet cabin and will be going some way to trying to help things along with sound proofing etc and incorporating some sort of basic sound system so I can have music/radio. However on the pre facelift dash there is no real provision for a conventional radio unless you either replace the ashtray or use a fairly rare radio add on (which I may have in my parts boxes!). I am unwilling to use either of these solution and also would prefer to use my phone as the source and use a Bluetooth amplifier hidden behind the dash with maybe a hidden, but accessible volume/on/off knob. To that end I watched a video on a simple amp being used and searched for one on Ebay. Turned out to be £10, delivered in 2 days and just works. So will be a good basis as a starter for 10 to see how effective this can be.
As for speakers the situation is interesting as I now have the choice of positioning them near the bottom of the A pillar or in the doors as the new front end is from a later car, whereas the original only had provision in the door. I will most likely go for a pair of decent combination speakers (ie single piece with both tweeter and low/mid range speakers in one). I realise this will be a compromise, but HiFi quality is not really my aim, just something that is acceptable for longer journeys. Photo of the amp I bought below. I tested it with a pair of my HiFi speakers using a 12V source and it sounded quite acceptable.
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Hi
Well I finally started on the massive clean/refurbish/paint all the suspension and braking parts for the car. Cleaning is a mix of getting old oil and crud off, wire wheeling and then painting the appropriate parts. For the Spider I simply used Hammerite and was not wholly happy with the lasting power, so this time I am treating the rust with a rust modifier (Vactan), using a primer, then Hammerite and we will see if that proves to be a better solution.
Todays work involved finish painting the one rear dust cover, drilling out two broken bolts and thread clearing the mounting holes for the rear brake dust covers in the rear hubs. Removing the anti roll bar bushes in the rear hubs, one pressed out, the other had to be drilled/cut and removing one of the bushes from the rear adjustable link arms, again drill and cut as the press would not budge it.
Really good to be doing something constructive now.
Peter
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Started on the refurbishing of the brake calipers whilst waiting for some thinners to allow cleaning of the brushes which I use for the primer. I have several of both front and back calipers and was not looking forward to removing the bleed nipples, all were rusty. I started by applying heat and then trying to loosen with a simple 8mm socket and ratchet, result was one came loose, the others felt like they might snap. I therefore thought the rattle gun may help on lowest setting. Result was absolutely no movement, so moved to middle setting and hey presto movement. This was repeated on approx 8 calipers I found in my store with only one previously broken nipple and one which broke with the gun. My technique once they had started moving was to reduce the gun to min setting which was plenty to get the nipples out. So I have a good choice of bodies, the next task is remove the yokes which from memory involves a lot of hammering……. After that see which of the pistons I can reuse. I have a pair of new rear pistons and complete seal sets for all round the car. I also have stainless bleed nipples to replace the original steel ones.
Peter
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Brakes put to one side until I get my parts washer sorted, debating over liquid, decisions, decisions…..
So carried on cleaning a few parts of the suspension, treated with rust converter and finished priming some of the other parts previously treated.
After having enough of the noise and muck from wire wheeling the suspension parts, I decided in the last hour to strip down one of the two power steering racks I have. This makes the manual rack rack look oh so simple. Eventually after various head scratching moments I managed to completely disassemble it. The rack I chose to do this on was one which I bought at the 50th and seller said it had blown seals due to moving the car without the engine on. Is this actually true that on these power steering racks you can blow a seal by moving the car without having the pump active? Seems a bit of a failing of the design to my mind. I did find a damaged seal and wonder if it actually had been refurbished and the seal was damaged during re assembly and just happened to go at a point in time which pointed to steering with the pump off.
I am going to arrange all the parts and take a photo of the correct arrangement for future reference, because I will forget….
Peter
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Photos of the disassembled power steering rack, as mentioned so what more complex than the manual one…..
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Hi Peter
I use Comma Hyper Clean in my Parts washer which comes in 25 liter drums. Gloves should be worn but it really does work when water based alternatives do not. Note Plastic or rubber parts should not be exposed to this stuff for long or they will swell and degrade.
Eric
On PS Racks. What Fun! As you say more likely installation error than using without the full system in place unless dirt is allowed in. Mine does have Some ATF in it with the pipes in a loop until the engine is in. This keeps dirt out and provides some lubrication.
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Hi Eric
Yes, keeping the connections clean during installation is a good thought. The rack you see here came with a couple of original bungs which I guess came on the replacement rack which the seller replaced it with.
I have opted for a water based liquid for the parts washer, hopefully will be successful if not take longer to achieve the finish I need, bonus is washing the parts after is ok as bio degradable.
I have seen reports of heating the water based solutions helps with its effectiveness, will see how it goes without that.
Peter
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Hi, as well as collecting/delivering the block today, I also visited Simply Wheels at Lincoln with the 5 Cromodora wheels I am aiming to use on the car. These are the alternative style ones to the standard Beta wheels which I always thought suited the HPE. I asked for bright silver finish, so will see what that looks like. I picked this company as they do a complete job on the wheels, acid dip etc, rather than a lot of companies who advertise locally, including mobile guys where to my mind it is a quick tart up of the wheel which would last a short while before the finish degrades. I failed to find anyone else locally who specialises in doing them. The local guy I used for the Spider is no longer in business I found when I visited where his premises were.
My aim is to buy tyres when we get to the point of actually needing them which is most likely sometime next year.
Peter
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I had a phone call on Saturday whilst at a local car show (East Kirkby aircraft museum) with the Spider. It was John the trimmer who has had the seats/door cards and headlining for what seems eons, in reality since late last year. They were all done and he sent me a photo. A bit of a shock as I had picked a leather and vinyl and asked for the seats to be all leather with vinyl on door cards and seat backs etc. The photos showed that he had simply reproduced the original layout of the seats substituting the old mustard material for leather and keeping the vinyl as was.
So, after calming down and getting home and consulting with better half we agreed that they actually looked very nice in the photos. On to today which was the visit to see them all in the flesh and overall very happy with the result and they are staying as is. He has a a couple of items which I took down to him to do, but the bulk of the trim is now done.
The big problem is that my better half who is much better at colours than me has said that the colour I had settled on, Opaline Green, is not going to work. We are now looking at something more neutral, so back on the hunt.
Photos are not great, the light was is not great in attic room where all the HPE stuff is stored.
Peter
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They look very nice Peter!
How was the cost?
C
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They look great Peter, probably better than your original plan.....
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That'll be a cracking interior Peter!
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Thanks for the positive comments. Just goes to show me and visualising things are not the best. Should leave to my better half.
On the cost it turned out better than I had expected. John had estimated £2300 for the work + materials and that was what he charged me saying it worked out at 8.5 days labour. Materials were £1100 which again seemed reasonable. So £3400 all in. There are a few bits still with him which will be a small amount extra but not significant in extra cost.
Peter
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Thank you for sharing the costs Peter.
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Hi
A bit more painting today on the suspension parts, seems endless at present, but will be good when finished.
I also bit the bullet on brake nuts/unions. I had been looking and bought one or two plated steel ones in the hope of finding some SAE flare compatible ones, but pretty much everyone seems to stock the 90 degree DIN style ones which are the standard ones over here in Europe from what I can tell. The original Lancia ones and more importantly the flaring tool I use is SAE and the only folk who seemed to understand what they have are Automec (https://www.automec.co.uk/ (https://www.automec.co.uk/)) who are also normally at the NEC show. They only supply brass unions which are a bit on the expensive side compared to steel ones, but will not rust. So having given up on normal suppliers I put a search in for brass M10 x 1.25mm and came up with two companies who obviously supplied Automec products, one was a lot cheaper than the manufacturer, so order placed, followed quickly by a sorry we do not have stock and supplier has none available, obviously not true, but ok refund received and on with the next supplier. Order placed and I failed to do my usual, does the website give telephone and address on the website. An email confirming order was received though it did not have any address, though did have a mobile number. I then visited the website home page and was dismayed to read that the site was corrupted and do not place an order……..
So thinking the order would have gone down a black hole, I tried ringing the tel nos which did not ring, oh boy, however I did send a text and also a WhatsApp message and WhatsApp rang, but was not answered. I also sent an email and after no response started a recovery via PayPal. This was over Thursday/Friday and on Sunday I got a text back saying will sort on Monday. I then received a text saying posted Monday evening and they arrived today. So good result in the end, note to self check website before ordering. In the end these unions were over a £1 each less than the manufacturer which probably means he had old stock.
Enough rambling, latest supply problem is a new pair of light surrounds from Italy to our friends in France which due to the Local French Post Office being closed for two weeks due to holiday (!) the parcel was returned to sender. I now have to sort that out. Never ending sorting out parts at present.
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Had to abort (for now at least) going to France this last weekend due to ill dog. So managed to grab a few hours to do some more painting of suspension, loads still to clean and paint, but little by little. Also at last put my parts washer into action. First up was the sump. Not in bad condition, but going to be modified with one of Mark’s baffle kits. So after a quick clean, I drilled out the spot welds I could get to and ground out the rest to take out the existing baffle (early style) and the back to the parts washer. It will need a bit of tidying before adding the kit, but a pretty solid sump all ready to go. Also happy with the parts washer.
Peter
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Hi Peter
Tidy work and glad the parts washer is giving good service. On the sump I would be doing the sandblasting next to have it paint ready once the welding is done and much more importantly you can be certain you have all the sand out before baffles are in the way. You also find out if surface rust is really pin holes needing welding.
Enjoy
Eric
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Hi Eric
Thanks, good idea.
Peter
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The final part of the trimming is the addition of the metal strips to the door cards. On the actual door cards I have ordered some plastic chrome adhesive strip which is similar to that on my Spider which has lasted well and looks the part. The rear cards however are stainless strips which are attached with bits of cut steel. Original attachment clip piece is in first photo. No idea if any were available, so I bought some steel sheet, using a pair of tin snips, made the 18 I needed and finished them with etch primer. They are not pretty, but are functional and will not be seen. I still have to polish the stainless strips before installing them. Second photo is a few of the completed clips.
Peter
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It's always quite satisfying making things like this, especially
knowing they're not available.
Well executed!
Nigel
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Nice work Peter. I like little challenges like this. I’ve given up trying to find the plastic ‘X’ clips that hold all the side mouldings to doors, boot
, wings etc, and now I make them out of stainless sheet with stainless m4 studs welded on. My trims are now bolt-on which is a little fiddly but they last forever and are infinitely reusable.
Ian
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As if planned the plastic chrome trim arrived the day after I finished the clips, 6mm wide, 5m long and should do the job of lifting the look of the front door cards a treat.
Peter
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A parcel arrived today from Vehicle Wiring Products who I bought my Spade terminals from for the Spider. This time as I aim to completely re-wire the HPE from scratch, I have bought some cable. My intention is to use as much of the original colour coding for cables as possible eg pink/black for the brake pad/reservoir fault cable. VWP have all the mix of colours that I needed, not too bad pricing, decent quality and thin wall, so all the requirements I wanted. My first pass on buying was to buy all the low current cables, 15 reels of 30m and when I get around to actually creating the loom, to use some old cable to measure the lengths I need for the higher rated cables which are naturally significantly more expensive. VWP sell by the metre as well as by the reel which is useful for the expensive cables.
Peter
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Are you going to build the loom on a board on the wall? This was the method used by Andy Tate when he did an Aurelia loom. He posted pictures on the LMC Forum I think. Obviously your HPE loom will be more complex.
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Hi Neil
I did consider if I could do that, but given a complete change of relays and fuse box I decided it was way simpler to just run the wires on the actual car after I have located any fixtures such as relay box. Some parts will obviously be pretty much the same such as the rear lights etc, but around the dashboard it will be completely different. One thing I hated on the Spider was the mass of wires which go above the steering column on the (early only?) right hand drive cars.
I am hoping that this thin wall cable will also make life a bit easier.
Peter
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Hi Peter
When I did this for my VX Beta Spider I had the loom out of the car and removed the loom tape using not fully tightened cable ties at the branches to keep the shape of the loom (what the pins do on a pin board) I then replaced a wire at a time always leaving a little extra if in doubt. Be aware you pattern might have areas shortened by previous owners like the door switch wires. Also some terminals like those to the Instrument cluster PCB are a real problem to get so you might have to join to original loom sections for this area.
A Peg Board approach is probably quicker but involves a LOT of measuring.
Eric
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Hi Eric
Yes a strip down of tne original loom would have been a way to go if I was using the original fuse box etc, but I am not and most likely changing location, so original loom will be of limited use. Simpler to start from scratch on the actual car.
Thanks
Peter
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Here is a selection of parts which have been wire wheeled, rust inhibited, primer and two coats of Hammerite done over several weeks. Still plenty more to do, but getting there. Still have to clean paint form threads and any surfaces which need to be flat, but that will be done in due course.
Also started re-assembling the Power Steering rack. Using a seal kit from Mark which comes from Transtec the main source of these parts for old ZF racks. So far found a couple of missing/wrong parts in the kit which I will list once I have finished assembling it.
Peter
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Mild steel metal tube arrived over the weekend and made up a tool to remove the original nits from the top of the front struts. Annoyingly the tool I made for the rear struts is bigger, so new tool now made, nut removed and old strut insides removed. Just need to clean the body up, give it some paint and install the inserts I bought from Mark.
One comment on removing the nut is that they needed to be ‘shocked’ into loosening, rather than trying to force with constant pressure. ideally I would have welded a nut to the tube and used the impact gun, but not having a welder, I used a bar and a hammer to achieve the same result.
Peter
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Remarkably similar to the tool I made for the same job Peter! I noted the the tube tops had been slightly crushed at opposite sides to prevent the nut accidentally loosening. I fitted a nylon bush on the top of the tool to prevent damage to the rod should it have slipped when a pipe wrench was used. More important on reassembly obviously.
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Hi Guy
Yes, noticed the small crimping on the top of the tube which I lightly loosened. I have replacement inserts and they normally come with a hex nut style top, so should not be required hopefully.
Peter
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Bit of a fail today. I finished putting together the power steering rack with the two boots left loose so I could see any ATF leaking, which turned out to be a wise decision. I hooked up the electric power steering pump with the rack on the bench and fired it up. Result was ATF all over, it does make a mess. Amongst the many seals on the rack are two chunky ones with wire springs to keep their shape. The one in the shaft, which is the extension of the column, is easy enough to fit and that appears ok, the one on the rod where the steering arms attach is not so easy. It lies at the bottom of a longish tube and I had used a socket on an extension to push it home, I obviously did not give it enough as the movement of the rod had loosened it. I guess if it is in place correctly the pressure of the pump will make sure it locates permanently, but on first firing up, if there is a gap, no pressure will be built up. So after an good hour or so cleaning up the mess and stripping that part of the rack, washing out the ATF soaked boots and having another go at pushing the seal home, I packed up for the day. Will see if I can drum up the enthusiasm to have another go tomorrow.
Peter
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Reseated seal today and put it all back together, attached pump and no leaks thankfully. I am not 100% sure this electric pump will do the job, but I guess that I will only know when I attach the rack to the car and with wheels on I try to move the steering wheel. So for now the rack can go on the shelf until that time comes.
Peter
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Another thing ticked off the list. I picked up the 5 wheels from Simply Wheels in Lincoln. They were the only place reasonably local who advertised acid dipping etc, rather than most of the tyre places who probably just pass to them over to these guys. They have had them for some weeks now and rang to say they were ready. End result was ok, not brilliant or as good a finish as my Spider wheels. They were not expensive at £60 inc vat per wheel, just wish the finish was a little better. I would suspect that due to them being seriously busy the attention to detail is not what it should have been and I had to take the view having the odd one redone would not necessarily have improved the situation given the issues are pretty minor. The car is also not a show car, it is to be used. If it annoys me too much I have a 1 year warranty on them.
One thing which has been sort of solved was the odd one out wheel. When I bought the wheels I bought 4 identical rims from one seller and later one from Ebay which also had a tyre on it. This one had different positions for the labels in the casting and the shapes of some of the edges were slightly rounder than the other 4. I also compared them with similar rims on other cars and they all were the same as the set of 4. I now have just the rims and noticed the odd one out has what looks like steel inserts where the bolts fit (see photo). Also the set of 4 weigh around 6Kg each, the odd one less than 5Kg, so I suspect the odd one may be Magnesium, the others the normal alloy which explains the difference.
Peter
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Overall they don't look too bad for £60 quid a shot.
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Hi
Just to avoid confusion, that was £60 for the refurb, the rims cost me £50 each.
Peter
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Currently out in France. I had a delivery yesterday from La Poste. It was a parcel originally sent the end of May from Italy to one of our neighbours here in France. When it arrived they were away for the week so it went to the local post office. When they callled at the post office it was closed for two weeks due to holidays! So as the parcel was not collected within two weeks it was returned to sender. The returned parcel took 3 months to get back to him and arrived back just under two weeks ago. He contacted me and I paid a second shipping and it arrived here after 5 days. The parcel had two new headlight surrounds still in their dusty packaging.
We were also supposed to be here during July/August but the dog decided differently and had to have an op, she is fine, but scuppered our visit. I had organised a n other package to be delivered and had to organise it to then be delivered to a different neighbour to the above (I thought they would not look on me kindly if this one causes hassle). Fortunately all went well and they have kept it for me since. I recovered it from them today. The package has front seat mechanisms which I have, but importantly the outer silver coloured plastic covers on mine are badly marked and these are pretty good for nearly 50 years. I do have some later black ones, but wanted to fit the original silver.
Peter
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Hi
Back from France and visited John the bodyman’s place today. I wanted to collect a couple of colour samples and offer up two interior panels which I had overlooked when giving the parts to the trimmer. These fit above and behind the rear turrets and are sheet steel covered in foam and vinyl. As I suspected at least one was deformed and was good to offer up to the body before I get them recovered. Also the good news John is finally on with the job, windscreen has been sorted and he had asked for my spare front dash as the mounts need to be transferred over from the original front. The early dash has completely different mounts to the later as well as having bulkhead holes for the fresh air vents. There will also be a few changes to the front to accommodate the old grill and the radiator, but hopefully not too many. I did not get any photos this time, but will on my next visit.
Peter
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Another visit to see John as he asked me to come over to see the scale of the job as they have now started the work in earnest…….
So a few photos and explanation. First up is they have finished where the new front meets the old back section on the windscreen surrounds and repaired the area at the lower corners of the screen surround which is often rotted out. The repair section for the corner came from the donor car.
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Next they have now cutout the complete sill under the door, both top, lower outer, middle and some of the inner.
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Now we have a big gap, we need something to fill it, the outer cover sill I had already bought from Mark, the top part of the sill under the door John visited a friend over the way from him who makes guttering and he bent up the steel to suit (photo), John then formed the curve to suit the rear edge. He is also going to ask him to make the lower sill part from under the car. John has also made the middle sill panels with the stiffening holes (photo), he is also going to reproduce the indentations of the originals.
Whilst all this looks fairly scary it should go back together reasonably quickly, it is all the small areas of missing metal, of which there are a fair number, which is what is going to take the time and also the patchwork quilt on the rear turrets. All this was mainly revealed after the dipping, good to know, but would I have wanted to start from here? Perhaps not…..
Peter
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The 'screen repair looks familiar.... Great progress, the only way to deal with the rot.
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Hi Guy
Yes, nice job, am not however looking forward to the bills which will be coming along over the next few months………
We have decided (I think!) on a colour for the car. After some very long consideration with the management and going through a number of paint books, we have decided on a VW Caramel metallic which tones well with the interior colours. Because it is almost impossible to get a decent representation of the colour in a photo, and the colour varies hugely with how the light falls on it I am not going to try to post a photo. Not quite what I had in mind at the beginning, but the result should be worth the wait (hopefully!).
Peter
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The colour for the Coupe is decided for me. It's the metallic grey of the VX cars, appropriate given it'll have a VX interior. I've even acquired the paint code sticker for the boot lid. And like an idiot I forgot I may have a choice of boot lids so should have bought two....
Guy
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Not sure I see you swapping boot lids when it is finished????
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A little more progress on the cleaning front.
Stripped down the drive shafts with the inner CVS on them. Thoroughly messy job and have been putting it off for ages. I aim to reuse the inner CVs and have new outer ones. The olde parts now just need a good wash in the parts washer and reassembly after inspection.
I also stripped down the seat runners. What did surprise me is the variations with them. My Spider runners use completely different regal/rubber bobbins, much larger than on the HPE or Coupe, however the runners on my HPE are most likely different to the runners off the Coupe in that the seat retaining/adjusting mechanism is only on the outer (door side) , there is nothing on the inner slider to stop it moving. On the Spider and the Coupe there is a retainer/adjuster on the inner slider which links across to the outer via a wire. I can only assume this was a hang over from S1 seats? The seat tilting mechanism is also different to the Coupe. Also the inner slider has a series of ball bearings as well as a couple of large bobbins (different again to the Spider).
One thing which amused me on the Spider and also on the HPE runners was that some of the bobbins were missing. Given how hard it is to get some of them out and not sure why anyone would have messed with them as all original material. Maybe missing from new….?
Photo shows one of the HPE seat runner set
Peter
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Hi Peter,
You're correct about the lack of double latching, which is standard on almost all
seats. Yours must be really early.
If you retained any bits from the Coupe, these are the stuff you want.
I do have a couple of rollers spare but, as you say, sizes differ. Let me know.
It would obviously be better if you could fit double-latching runners for more seat security.
Nigel
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Hi Nigel
I have plenty of the roller/bobbins thanks.
Changing over to the Coupe runners is not trivial. A quick comparison the central mounting hole for the seat bolt is in a different position, which is not the end of the world., however the whole seat tilting mechanism is completely different. Sadly the Coupe runners and tilting mechanism is in a poor corroded state and would need a lot of refurbishing, whilst the original is in great shape, so for now will stick with original. As you say it would be preferable to replace with the later runners having both sides lock. If I come across any in good condition, I would be tempted.
Peter
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On the subject of crossover from S1 to S2, this car was registered with a P plate in 76, the VIN is a few hundred into S2 production, but also has the S1 centre console with the gear selection plate rather than the stencilling on the gear lever. It does have the mounts for the engine and gearbox dampers, unlike my Spider, but has the S1 rear tailgate with the key located in the rear badge and no push button. No idea if the tailgate is original, but the colour looked consistent when I stripped it. It could of course have been one of the first batch of RHD cars so the VIN may not relate to exactly the sequence when it was put together.
Peter
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Not much progress other than the seat runners recently, but have bought a couple of speakers to fit the Coupe front end holes. I do not need a great hifi system, just something to listen to the radio and a reasonable music reproduction without going to separate bass and amp etc. I read various reviews and decided on a pair of Rockford Fosgate R1525X2. Tested them on the bench with the Bluetooth amp I bought a while ago and it sounds ok for my needs. As others report the bass is lacking, but that is to be expected with this size of speaker. One thing I do like is the inbuilt tweeter.
Peter
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Looks a bit like the KEF Uni-Q design.
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Hi
Something I played with on the Spider and have been experimenting with adapters for the HPE are the wiper arms. On the Spider I bought a set of arms and blades from TEX who made a set based on a pair I sent them. The problem is they do not have the spline type used on the Betas, so bought a pair of adapters which worked OKish on the Spider. The problem is when you are going along at a reasonable speed or it is windy the spring force is not really enough to keep the blade on the screen, so you get poor clearance of the water. So I revisited the original wipers which of the ones I have are all painted in a silver colour. I wanted to keep with stainless finish to match the rest of the trim (black would have been much simpler) so took one of the arms and had a quick play with the polishing wheels I have. The result is below and quite pleased with the initial result. Original on the right, polished on the left. It will take a fair amount of time, but the result should give me original arms looking in keeping with the rest of the trim. I will then buy a pair of Tex blades in stainless to finish them off. Hopefully they will give better performance than the Spider ones.
I am also looking to mod the wiper mechanism as per Nigel’s wipers to improve the sweep of the blades.
Peter
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Hi
Due to visit the car next week, but John has sent a few photos of recent progress. Nice to see metal actually being added, rather than taken away!
Peter
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Hi
Following on from my thread on the Siem headlights which all seem to rust to some extent, given that they are probably 40+ years old, no great surprise I guess. I have decided to have them resilvered as the rust is not too bad.
To get the lenses separated from the bowls I warmed the edge next to the lens with a propane gun, this made the sealant soft and the lens was then easy to push out. This obviously damages the slivering, but is going to be replaced, as is the outer coating, so no harm done.
The company I am going for is Concours Plating (https://www.concoursplating.co.uk/ (https://www.concoursplating.co.uk/)), the quoted price is £75 + vat per bowl.
Photos of the bowl below.
I have also cleaned, treated for rust and painted the mounting plates. These are originally plated, but we’re not too pretty, so painting will hopefully keep them in decent condition.
One thing I am after are some of the plastic clips which attach the bowls to the adjuster rods, anyone have any or a source as a few broke during removal? Photo below
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Peter,
Mark has those plastic clips in stock.
Nigel
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Hi Nigel
Well spotted will get some from him next order I do, thanks
Peter
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Peter,
I guess you want to retain originality as much as possible, but if you are prepared to sacrifice that, I can recommend a set of Valeo (formerly Cibie) 5 3/4" headlights. The Valeo part number is 082372 and I can vouch for their efficiency. I replaced all the old Siem/Carello headlights I had on my Spider and when I flicked all four lights on it was like daylight, even with just humble halogen bulbs. I've seen them listed at £55-£60 each (when you can get hold of them). They are the same design lens as the original (and famed) Cibie Z-beam units.
Graham
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Hi Graham
Originality is of no particular interest. What I wanted to retain was the ability to tilt the lights and the Shem ones allow this but I fail to see how you can do it with the Carello style lights. Do the Valeo ones use the Siemens three point fixings or dare they suited to the Carello style of fixing?
Peter
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Hi Graham
Originality is of no particular interest. What I wanted to retain was the ability to tilt the lights and the Shem ones allow this but I fail to see how you can do it with the Carello style lights. Do the Valeo ones use the Siemens three point fixings or dare they suited to the Carello style of fixing?
Peter
Peter
I bought 2 NOS Cibie/Valeo(?) headlights last year. They didn't fit the 1300 Coupe pods being very slightly too big for my stainless rims and having a different fitting clip pattern.
I'll get some photos next time I go to the garage. They are as new and not much use to me if you want them.
Neil
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Hi Neil
Thanks, the Siem ones just have three ‘studs’ and it is this which allows the tilt, so will be interesting to see what you have.
Thanks
Peter
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Hi Graham
Originality is of no particular interest. What I wanted to retain was the ability to tilt the lights and the Shem ones allow this but I fail to see how you can do it with the Carello style lights. Do the Valeo ones use the Siemens three point fixings or dare they suited to the Carello style of fixing?
Peter
Hi Peter,
I'm afraid I can't remember which make of OE headlights I had, but remember that it was a comparatively simple job to mount the Valeo lights with the OE hardware. Unfortunately I can't check the car as it's in France and I'm in Sheffield. I'd be inclined to use the Valeo units if you can get hold of them, as the light output and beam pattern is in a totally different league to OE, whether it's Siem or Carello, and the appearance (once the plastic bezel is in place) is indistinguishable.
Graham
<Edit> just realised that we are talking about different generations/series of Beta here (the clue being in the word 'early'...) My Spider is an S2FL model and the mounting hardware looks quite different. Sorry for leading you up the garden path...
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Hi Graham
Hmmm. Well I am hoping the fitting of the backplate for the lights is the same as the HPE has a S2FL2 front end now!
Something I will have to check to see if any mods are required on top of the mods we have already identified.
Peter
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Hi Peter,
I must confess I'm not fully conversant with the 'Series' nomenclatures and which vintage of Betas they correspond to. My Spider was first registered in 1980, but built in October 1979. How many Series are there? I was under the (quite possibly mistaken) impression that there were 3 distinct 'Series', with the third Series commencing with the fuel injected Coupes and HPEs and the VX. Is this correct? And what Series would my Spider fit into?
Graham
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Hi Graham
This is my take on it, others may have a different view. The original S2 (coupe/Soider/HPE) had the brown dash. Then around 78 the Facelift S2FL was introduced with black dash. AFAIK all UK Spiders were this. The S2FL2 with new grill was introduced around 81? As only 2l cars were sold in the UK at this time this was the IE and VX. My HPE front end is from an IE.
Peter
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Hi Graham
This is my take on it, others may have a different view. The original S2 (coupe/Soider/HPE) had the brown dash. Then around 78 the Facelift S2FL was introduced with black dash. AFAIK all UK Spiders were this. The S2FL2 with new grill was introduced around 81? As only 2l cars were sold in the UK at this time this was the IE and VX. My HPE front end is from an IE.
Peter
OK, thanks for that, Peter.
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Then around 78 the Facelift S2FL was introduced with black dash. AFAIK all UK Spiders were this.
Peter, not quite sure what you mean but early S2 Spiders were brown dash.
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Hi Stuart
True and reading what I wrote is not what I really meant, I meant in the U.K. there were no FL2 Spiders.
Peter
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Not been too much fun working in the garage with recent temps, but had a part day working on the cyl head yesterday, today was reassembling the runners for the seats. I had previously stripped them, cleaned the old grease etc and today was reassembly with the correct amount of rollers etc.
End result not is quite pleasing, just hope I have orientated the runners correctly to allow the seat to move forward when you want to get in the back seat.
Also the light bowls went off a week ago, quoted turnaround is 8 weeks, so beginning of March to see how they look.
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Not much to report on the car, the bodywork is apparently moving on after about 3 months of inactivity, fingers crossed.
Last year I bought a pair of the red door lights fitted to early cars, the lenses were in decent condition, but the internals were all rusted as I received them, not my best deal, but they did come with the rubber seals for the doors which are useful. I decided to ditch the bulb holders and bought a pair of generic holders and a number of the rubber covers I have previously used on the water temp sensors on the Spider and will need for this car’s engine. A bit of fettling and it all goes together quite nicely.
Peter
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Nice find Peter, also on Gammas and Stratos.... That's why they can be soooo expensive. Especially the ones you didn't get that have the Carello logo in a horseshoe shape on the lensed.
Guy
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Top tip: Bielstein in Germany sells those new for not much: https://www.bielstein.com/Light-for-door-Carello-14784718 (https://www.bielstein.com/Light-for-door-Carello-14784718) ;)
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Hi
I think Guy mentioned these AFTER I had bought these second hand ones, unfortunately. I just did not want to effectively scrap what I had, just seemed wrong when the lenses were in good condition. Also I did get the door to A pillar seals with the wiring which was a bonus.
Peter
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Hi
I had the Siem headlight bowls back from re-silvering. Not quite as I had imagined them with a few marks on them which I need to clean up, but they will be perfectly acceptable when finally assembled and a lot better than when I sent them off. I am probably getting too picky in my old age. I bought some Sikaflex 221 to reseal the lenses back in and to provide a seal around where the bulb retaining metal attaches to the main bowl. The original seals were old and not reusable.
Peter
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Hi
During The Restoration Show I had a chat with a guy called Simon Cox who works for Longstone Tyres in Bawtry. He has a Coupe and is looking for a 1600 engine for it if anyone knows of one? As well as that he also has a very rusty HPE facelift and a VX Coupe which is engineless and missing the front end, the front end went to repair his Coupe after an accident. My HPE has very very bad rear wheel arches, more patches than original, and I wondered if the Coupe rear he had was in usable condition. On quick inspection they do look in good condition, so I called in at John the body guy's place, had a talk with him and he was going to measure up the wheel arches on the original Coupe I have which donated the front parts to the HPE to see how similar they are. We know the turret tops are higher, but they are good on the HPE and are simply a welded section attached to the wheel arch. If they are usable this will save a bunch of time and money.
One positive is that work on the HPE sills is continuing and should be completed soon which has been a major job to replace them all.
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Hi
Decision made not go the Coupe rear wheel arch donor route, so if anyone wants a Coupe body for parts, mainly rear end looks to be good, get in touch.
Had some photos through of the work done, so thought I would post here. These show repair to subframe, right hand side lower sill repair, right side upper sill below door repair and left side inner sill which was also the same as the repair to the right side. The inner and upper sills were made in house, the lower outer sills were supplied by Mark.
Peter
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More
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Had an update from the body guy. All the sills are now complete (inner, middle, outer and upper) as well as various other areas needing sorting. They have now installed a roll over hoop so they can get on with the rear wheel arches which are a complete mess, so hopefully more progress together with an appropriate bill. I am looking forward to having the body back painted as the big bills should then be over.
Peter
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Exciting progress Peter.
Looking forward to seeing it in a couple of weeks.
N.
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Great to see it coming together
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Hi
Visited the car end of last week with Nigel.
Work has been going well and John commented that Dale should have the welding finished during July, we will wait and see, but hopefully near to finishing at least.
Currently on with the rear wheelarch/turrets which are a mess as the photos show, but will look well when finished.
Peter
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One item which I had almost forgotten about was the front subframe which John the body Guy had taken off. It was in decent condition and he sent it off to be powder coated. I picked it up on my last visit. Most likely the only part which will be powder coated, came out very nice. Hard to photograph, but here for the record.
Peter
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Hi Peter,
I don't know which subframe you've had coated, but the rear mounting bolt holes
vary between early and late versions.
Early have the bolts screwing into the base of the firewall directly, late type bolt fixings
go into small triangular 'outriggers' that were welded to the outside
of the firewall.
I suggest the subframe is offered up to the car prior to body completion.
(sorry I didn't think of this more recently)
Nigel
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Hi Nigel
John originally made a support frame for the original early subframe mounts and then realised the replacement front had different mountings so had to rejig the support frame to suit.
I have not checked, but given he removed the subframes, he was aware of which we needed to have painted.
I will double check tomorrow.
Peter
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Hi
I checked the subframe and it has two pairs of holes at the rear, whereas on another old subframe it has two holes and two locating pins which fit into the body and I know this pin version is on the early cars, so happy the powder coated one is the correct one for the HPE now.
I am unsure if there were only two styles of subframe? Anyone know?
Photos show the powder coated one for later cars and an old one from early cars.
Peter
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The things you learn! Mine has the locating pin so it must be an early one then. The subframe bolts onto the pyramid shaped brackets welded to the front firewall at it's turn underneath the car. What are the threaded holes for on the later subframe Peter?
Guy
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Hi Guy
Simple answer, no idea. I did not take the subframe off, so not sure how it fits. I had assumed your car being a facelift would have the later subframe and mounting points, so wonder if there is more than 2 versions?
The thing which is curious on this later subframe is that there are no locating pins and hence just located by the bolts. I would have though the pins give a good reference for the front chassis at the bulkhead.
Peter
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Finally plucked up the courage to resell the headlights today. It actually went quite well, just messy sticky stuff which you need to try to only get on them places you want it!
I installed the lenses dry then put the sealant around the lens, finally smoothing with a flat bladed screwdriver.
The bulb holder to bowl sealing was a similar technique.
As a test on these first one I actually did yesterday, I ran water over the lens to check no water could get in, so a bit of confidence I will not end up with water in the lights when out in the rain.
Peter
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Forgot to add I also bought some generic bulb covers on Ebay which fit both the main and full beam Siem lights. I was not a fan of the originals which do not provide good sealing to the bulb area as the connectors poke through rather than are contained within.
Peter
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Work has continued on the body. Main focus has been the rear turrets which are now almost complete. They now look 100% better than the the original patchwork of awful plates and welds I inherited.
In order to repair the turrets had to be removed, repaired and then reinstalled, hence the bar to keep the spacing and positioning between the two.
Also the edge of the outer rear wings have been repaired. Where the inner wing attaches to the outer wing has also been replaced.
Peter
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Amazing work that you have going on there Peter. Knowing now how much I have spent on a relatively simple round of welding repairs I can only admire your commitment to this project!
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That's a great improvement Peter! Hoping to see similar on mine this week if Geoff has had a chance to work on it! One side done and part way through the other last time I saw it.
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That is some smart work. Thanks for sharing.
Mark
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Hi
Thanks all. Visited site today to collect the wheels they had as it will be returned on the dolly in the photos. Had various discussions re what was needed, mainly the fuel filler pipe which fits as per original and how to mount the new aluminium fuel tank I had made. We are going to use the original studs for the old tank and make up a pair of bars which will sandwich the new tank to the chassis using these studs with rubber to give the tank some wriggle room. Then there will be a couple of straps attached to these bars to hold it firm. That at least is the current thinking.
Peter
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Many years ago I bought one of the wooden gear knobs fitted to the early cars. It had the legend on top of the gear positioning, however the varnish/lacquer was cracked and so I scraped it all off, sanded it, applied sanding sealer and then a few coats of lacquer. End result, given I am total amateur at painting, is quite pleasing. All I have to do now is sort out a metal ferrule to fit into it as it did not arrive with one.
I still have the original from the HPE, but it had the varnish/lacquer worn away and was badly marked presumably from being handled without this protective coating.
Peter
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The Stratos Club had a pile of these made a while back with fittings for Lancia or Alfa. But also without the script on the top!
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Hi Guy
Are there any metal inserts available…?
I have the original one in the Spider which I like both the look and feel which is why I was keen to have one in the HPE
Peter
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Unknown Peter - I'll see if I can find out for you!
Guy
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Hi Peter, you might have to check the thread on the gear-lever - It's probably M10*1.0? This may be a suitable insert:
https://www.theinsertcompany.com/steel_blind_hex_drive_inserts_for_wood.php (https://www.theinsertcompany.com/steel_blind_hex_drive_inserts_for_wood.php)
The Stratos Club don't appear to have any stock left of the reproduction knobs.
Guy
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Hi Guy
Just to confuse you, pre facelift uses M10x1.25, facelift one I have is M10x1.0……
I have found a M14 to M10x1.25 adapter which will need a bit of work to get to fit, but should do the job.
Thanks for looking.
Peter
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Small victory today. The only thread adapter from M14 to M10x1.25 I could easily find had a hex nut end as well as M14 thread externally. So out came the bench grinder and the fit is pretty good in the gear knob above, so small but successful result!
Peter
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This is the body after coloured epoxy primer applied. Long way to go, but welding on main body all done.
Peter
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Hi Peter,
That really has come a loooong way. Looking very good.
It always amuses me to see the clutch cable bracket for the LHD cars sitting on the n/s chassis rail.
I cut it off of my VX coupe when painting the engine bay but it will stay in my VX HPE as I might make it LHD drive one day.
Is it time to go to the bodyshop?
Cheers
Ian
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Hi Ian
Until you mentioned it I would never of noticed it. The guys doing the metalwork also do the paintwork. The doors, bonnet and hatch are yet to be sorted, but they are not too bad thankfully.
Peter
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Hi Peter,
That's looking very good!
I'm surprised to see you have the fixed battery tray.
I thought it would have had the bolt on version in this case.
Nigel
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Hi Nigel
We did discuss it and decided to go with the fixed option. Given how much of a pain getting the engine out through the top is, I have decided to install from below after visiting and talking with John King who had rebuilt his Spider engine and reinstalled from underneath.
Peter
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It always amuses me to see the clutch cable bracket for the LHD cars sitting on the n/s chassis rail.
Cheers
Ian
Hi Ian
I did wonder why I had never spotted it on the Spider, mainly because there is no bracket or hole on the Spider. I guess this was a mod for the early cars and maybe the RHD bulkhead was just different to the LHD ones.
Peter
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It always amuses me to see the clutch cable bracket for the LHD cars sitting on the n/s chassis rail.
Cheers
Ian
It's probably something to do with reducing the pressings variants, in that it's not on the firewall itself.
N.
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Time flies, done very little myself until today when I am back on cleaning and painting. Todays items, springs, top of the heater box and rear anti roll bar. I have also stripped and cleaned the heater box with what looks like a good core thankfully. Also stripped several camboxes to sort out a decent exhaust cam and exhaust and inlet box with decent bearings. They are waiting to be cleaned. Lastly spent a while port matching the inlet manifold to the head. Roughed out two ports today and then had enough so two more to do and then final polish.
Doors, bonnet and rear hatch have been to dippers so hope to see them repaired and primed over coming weeks.
Peter
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Visited John the body guy today. The main body and rear hatch metalwork is done. There are minor repairs to the two doors and one wing to be done. The bonnet was the main reason for the visit.
After having the doors, rear hatch, wings and bonnet dipped, the only surprise for John was the bonnet. It has corrosion in the front two corners, mainly on the underside. So the decision was use it or have the Coupe (later style) bonnet dipped and use that. The Coupe bonnet looks to have been drowned in protective underseal, but you never know until it is removed. On looking at the corrosion on the original bonnet we decided it was non structural and just cosmetic. The other issue was not wanting to apply heat to the bonnet, so the plan is to tidy up the small areas using metal filler/fibreglass.
After this we are onto filler work. Looking like I shall get the car back towards end of year now.
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Hi Peter
Bonnets definitely hide surprises. My Beta Spyder VX item was remade from 2 dipped bonnets and I have 3 here to get dipped to see if I can create a viable spare. I am trying hard to have 1 sound spare of each bolt on body part and the bonnet is the last item on the list.
Eric
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The bit I find odd about the original car is that the main body was so bad, yet the wings, doors and bonnet are nowhere near as bad as the main body, yet they are normally the parts that suffer at least as much. I suspect the wings may have been replaced, less likely the bonnet and doors.
Peter
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Spent a good part of the day putting back the heater box after previously completely stripping and cleaning it. I replaced the age old foam, went over the plastics and rubber parts with vinyl restorer and applied a protective spray to the rods and metal brackets. I did contemplate getting them re-plated, but only a few parts and I wanted to get it back together now. The only issue with it is the valve which was totally seized, so will get a new one in due course. Just a few rods to now put on it and it can go away ready for the car to arrive.
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I'll check the two heater boxes I have here Peter and drop one in the post to you if you need it? Unless you plan on replacing it with a new one, probably a route I'll be going.
Guy
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Hi Guy
I have messaged you, but I am happy to give a used one a go if in decent condition.
Thanks
Peter
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I was hoping to see some progress after being in France for a few weeks, however John the body guy has been off ill for the last 4 weeks so only now just getting back to working on the car. Will leave it until after the NEC to go visit. Not expecting to see it in paint until after the New Year now. Once I have an idea when it may be coming home, I need to sort out storage for the Spider as there is not room in the garage for both and be able to work on either….
Peter
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Regarding storage my Coupe spent a happy winter under an all weather cover that I have. Might provide a short term solution?
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Hi Neil
Really not happy with storing externally under cover, so not for me, especially in winter with potential condensation issues.
Peter
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Visited John and the car yesterday and was presented with the usual monthly bill, which was sort of good news in that work has been progressing, did not bother with photos as all bits and pieces of progress.
They have finished all the metalwork which included repairs to the doors amongst other small parts. Also repaired the front corners of the bonnet, not welded as did not want to run the risk of warping it, so combination of epoxy and fibreglass, these are only small repairs so not structural, but complete the look. As the bonnet was dipped, any adhesion between the skin and the supporting structure is no longer there, so some adhesive has to be introduced to bring the bonnet back to a single solid unit which apparently is a bit of not too little, not too much job……
Various areas of the body, doors and bonnet have started the long road to filling, flatting, filling again etc. Will probably wait now until the New Year to visit again, but really happy with the progress, just need to get my finger out to get the rest of the running gear finished ready for reassembly.
Peter
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These are very effective if you have room on the driveway: https://inthegarage.com/product/outdoor-car-shield-outdoor-car-cover/ You need to be able to get power to it but they are very cheap to run and you can connect a trickle charger to keep the battery topped up. A friend of mine has had one for a while and swears by it, keeps the car really clean and dry. He leaves the windows / sunroof / boot and bonnet open as well to keep air flowing through all parts....I bought one at the show to store the spider which is off the road over the winter. I can then keep the HPE in the actiual garage so that i can use it on a nice day. I bought a 4.3m which the HPE will fit in and they were doing a 10% discount at the show with this code: 10PRA24 They did say it would be valid for a week or so after the show.
Also got one of these which is used inside a gazebo type tent: https://airflow-uk.com/ I keep the Beta Coupe or the HPE in it and if you put the car in there slightly damp it's usually dry the next morning!.
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Hi
Thanks for the info, would need to run by management who may not be too happy with it at the front of the house…..
Otherwise looks a great solution.
Peter
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Not strictly only for the HPE, but new toy time…
Always wanted an endoscope to be able to check that the squirted in protection was covering the enclosed part of the sills, subframe etc. Had considered a phone attachment version, but noticed this Depstech 590 on Ebay for about half price of a new one so pressed the button. Arrived today and is essentially new complete with case and accessories. The real bonus was it came with the three lens lead, the benefit is having a very short focus on one of the side cameras. The screen is a decent size and came with 32Gb storage for either videos or stills. It also can show split screen for 2 of the three cameras.
Next time I am in the garage will attempt to view the encased sills on the Spider to see how good/bad they are as one job that was not done when it was restored.
Peter
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Another month and a reasonable amount of progress at the body shop.
I thought the metalwork had been finished, but not quite (and still one or two bits to finish yet). I had said the doors had been repaired, but must have missed the that the passenger door needed the rot at the bottom of the window needing to be done…..
Both doors, bonnet and rear hatch now in primer.
Internally the body has had sound deadening panels applied to reduce drumming etc.
Peter
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Photos of internal body
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Looking good Peter.
There's some well placed sound deadening, and it looks very similar to
factory original.
Nigel
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Hi Nigel
It was John’s choice of placement etc, happy to leave to him to do what he feels makes sense.
I visited the car today, still carrying on with the prep for paint, however I saw one thing which is not something that I had on the Spider. As the front end is a late model car, including the A pillars, it appears to have a hole at the base of the A pillar. So is this for access to the sills to insert cavity protection or for some other reason? Also is it normal grommited? I guess it is normally hidden behind the wing liner.
Photo below of hole and car as of today.
Peter
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It's there on the Coupe and will be grommeted once it's been cavity wax injected Peter! And there's one on the other side too. I plan on blocking every hole with a grommet if there is a suitable one in the piles i took off the car ASAP.
Guy
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Peter,
I expect mine has the same holes, I've not seen them though.
As Guy said, use it then grommet it.
I'll take a look at mine next time I have the liners out.
Good pointer.
Nigel
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Thanks both of you, I sort of assumed that there would be original holes in the bottom of the sills like on my Spider, not at the bottom of the A pillar. Given the length of the sill on the HPE, I am also going to introduce a hole near the back end of the sill to allow filling from either end, rather than trying to get access to the whole length from the front.
Peter
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My Spider has holes in the A pillar like these. As a matter of fact it had an awful lot of holes but these ones were supposed to be there!
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Hi Stuart
Know the feeling…..
Anyway had a couple of photos of the underside of the car with underbody protection coat on it, things moving along!
Peter
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Turning it upside down beats getting a face full every time.
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Hi Eric
Yes, custom roll over hoop has made life much more enjoyable for them to work on it.
It will be for sale when all is done should anyone be facing the same job…..
Peter
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Looking great Peter! I wonder if that frame would also fit a Saloon and a Coupe? Not that I need one but it's a really useful thing to have if you're embarking on a full restoration!
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Hi Guy
Probably need a tweak, but I know the front subframe mounts suit a later car as we had to mod the original having changed the front on the car. The main change I would think may be the rear mounting points? The main thing is the hard work has been done.
Peter
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One of the things I have always disliked on the early cars is the gear lever gaiter, on the spider it is a vinyl part, on this it is a rubber boot, functional, but not pleasant to my eye. So I had a new gaiter made when retrimming the car out of the seat leather. All good so far, but I really wanted some sort of collar to finish the top of the gaiter. The gear lever is approx 14mm diameter and most of the ones I see on Ebay are around 11mm if I remember correctly, but I came across one which was 15mm, but attached to a gaiter already. However for £5 delivered I decided nothing lost even if it gets thrown away. However it arrived from China and the collar is simply held in with a Ty wrap, so easy to remove and fit to my gaiter. It is only plastic, but looks the part and finishes the gaiter off quite nicely.
Peter
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Well done on the collar. That is always a challenge. My rubber gromet solutions look horrible be comparison.
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Very neat. More work to do when the interior goes back in.... Thanks for setting an example Peter!
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Thanks, so pleased with it I am going to get one for the Spider’s vinyl gaiter.
Peter
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On with one of those jobs you thought about ages ago, but never got around to it yet…..
The interior of the Spider is pretty simple in terms of coverings, just one carpet (with bits attached to the center console) and some headlining. The HPE in contrast has various coverings, mostly brown and made out of man made material. On the Spider we reused the carpet and stuck a n other carpet on top to keep the profilenetc which worked ok, but that is not really an option on the HPE as there are various coverings. The big issue is Sun fade which has affected various parts differently. I therefore wanted to try dyeing to see if I could get a more even and original colouring. So I finally found a dye which claimed to work with man made fabrics such as nylon, polyester etc. It is an American dye called Rit DyeMore. You have to use it with near boiling water which is going to be a challenge for the carpet etc, but as a test I bought the Chocolate Brown dye and tried it on a piece from the center console. I used boiling water in a bowl with water and it says add a small amount of dish detergent (Fairy in my case) and keep it hot for an hour. I actually added some more boiling water after 15 mins and left it for around 30 mins. Result was pretty impressive. Photo shows a comparison of approx what is was like (ginger colour) of another part of the center console and after the dyeing process.
Challenge will be doing the larger carpets.
Peter
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Just finished writing the last post and had a flurry of photos from John the body guy. He has finished the stone chip around the lower sills, front and rear valance and then 3 coats of primer on the main body. His comment was to get the Spider storage sorted as it will not be long before the finishing coats are being applied and has said I will need to go over to view in a couple of weeks time……..
First 2 photos are of the stone chip, the the body in primer. The stone chip was applied as a ‘smooth’ coat.
Peter
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Carried on with the dyeing process on the interior coverings which had faded. So far have had a go at the rear turret covers, rear side cover and boot carpet. Apart from the carpet, the rest have had two sessions and the results are very acceptable. I will have to reshape the turret covers, but small problem against having them a uniform colour compared to how they originally were before I started. The following photos were taken in different lighting, but serve to show the change in colouring.
I have yet to look at the two carpets I have. One is the original which had damage due to welding being done under the car without removing the carpet….. (one born every minute as the saying goes), the other is a left hand drive carpet I bought in France which is a different manufacturer, but hoping I can use to repair the original as the damage is mainly under the passenger seat area.
Peter
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Well Done Peter. This is the really clever work and it will make the car look amazing.
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Hi Eric
Not sure about clever, it was a suck and see really as never tried this before. Interiors for the early cars are a real pain to get hold of so reusing what you have has to be the first port of call if possible. Sadly I had a good look at my original carpet today and the spare one I bought in France and the pile is totally different (loop pile on the spare one as opposed to a furry finish on the original) so patching the the original is not going to work.
So…… I have decided to use the whole of the spare one which is in decent condition, albeit it is a LHD carpet, so has the cutout for the steering column on the wrong side. Given I shall be using full size mats in the car, I do not think it will be too obvious, hopefully…..! Will see when I get the car back and try it. It is in need of a good clean, but does not appear to have any significant fading.
I still have some more of the rear coverings to dye, namely the rears of the rear seats which have to be un-stapled from the mounting board and the long thin cover which goes over the rear hatch.
Peter
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I have a Numatic George so I was able to wash hoover several carpets. This does make a difference but does not make wear go away. But it does significantly improve them. Your earlier pile carpet can be made in sections by a good trimmer, but the later loop S2 highly molded would be tricky IMHO.
I am using an HPE VX carpet cut at a line under the front seats. It was just in far better condition than everything else.
LHD is interesting because the wear pattern is reversed. Could you do a join right down the middle to have the good bits of LHD and RHD?
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Hi Eric
Sadly the carpet material is completely different which is what I had intended doing, but cannot now and the thoughts of trying to find another does not bare thinking about!
I am hoping I can ‘pinch’ a piece from under the rear seats to replace where the steering wheel would go on the LHD, though I am anticipating that area will change anyway as looking to locate some of the relays/fuses there if possible. Will not get a better idea on all of that until the car comes home.
Peter
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Often with working on restoring things on the car it is the small things which give as much enjoyment as the larger events. In the centre console is an ashtray which had very old grease and the surrounding metalwork paint was very tired. So a bit of scotchbrite and some enamel paint I had originally bought for parts on the Spider, a small amount of light grease and it is now looking the part. At the same time I have part dismantled some of the covering for the rear panels attached to the rear seats to go through the dyeing process. This necessitated partially drilling out three rivets to remove these plates which I removed the old paint and re-painted at the same time as the ashtray.
Re-assembly of the plates means I have to drill and tap the remains of the old rivets as access to the back is not possible without removing more covers which does not need to be done as they are in decent condition.
Peter
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One thing that I had never really understood was why a good quality repaint cost so much, however having now seen various cars on the Retropower YouTube channel going through the process and witnessing the HPE going through it in person, I realise just how much work/time and hence cost is involved. Not something to be undertaken lightly, but as with Guy’s car the results can be stunning. I shall be visiting the car this coming week, but latest photos are here of the underbody final coat. Note the colour in the photos is a lot lighter than in real life, the colour is a darker brown metallic.
Peter
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Having paid the bill I can tell you it's eye watering.... But you get what you pay for (mostly) Peter.
Is that a Foreman P3 replica in the background?
Guy
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Hi Guy
I seem to remember it is a sort of bastardised Ferrari, but will ask John when I see him to refresh my memory as he told me the saga of it a while back which included some very bad and expensive work being done in the US.
I have to say the journey has been an interesting one and certainly have learnt a lot, the main one being bodywork time/costs do add up significantly over time. Given what I know now I would have approached the build from a different angle which would have saved me a significant amount of time/money, but the old adage is you have to pay to learn and normally no real substitute. The one main positive is that the work being done is by someone who is bothered about the result which is the most important thing as far as getting a quality finished item.
Here is a link to a video John sent of the finished engine bay, again colour in the video is lighter than real life, but nice to see a finished part of the car.
http://ashlyn.co.uk/downloads/Beta%20Engine%20Bay.mp4 (http://ashlyn.co.uk/downloads/Beta%20Engine%20Bay.mp4)
Peter
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This is a word of warning for anyone who is taking on a restoration, under no circumstances keep an ongoing list of the costs involved, it is way too depressing. I kept a sort of mental note for the Spider of rough costs, but actually have kept a list of the main costs involved in the HPE and it is quite sobering looking at the totals. The drip drip over the months did not seem to be that significant, which is why I think you should look at restoring a car like Betas, which will most likely cost more to restore than it will be worth in resale value, as a "hobby"
At the end of the day it is the whole journey which is reason for me to do this, so whilst the end result is the target it is not the be all and end all.
Just a word of warning!
Peter
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I would like to echo those thoughts Peter. I spoke to Hagerty as, now the car is home, I wanted to arrange insurance for it. The maximum they were willing to insure it for, as a rolling shell and a pile of components was £14000. They are willing to review that value as the car progresses so it will be revisited on a quarterly basis. But they say that they can't insure the car for what it will have cost to restore but will consider assessing the value at or over current top market price once complete. All modifications from standard are declared, especially the engine.
Just adding up the cost of buying the car, repairing the shell and painting it takes me way way way over the £14000 total. Add in the interior, engine and parts bills and I'm into totals you laugh at when you watch Bangers & Cash - Restoring Classic Cars! But I'm not doing to make anything out of it. I just want a great Beta that will see out the next 50 years with me and it's next owner(s). The aim is to enjoy it as much as I can!
Guy
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Hi Guy
Never really understood the B & C restorations given the costs versus the sale price. As you say doing it for your own pleasure is very different to looking at it as a commercial concern.
Guess the revenue from the program must be worth it.
Peter
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Nail hit on the head Peter, the Restoration show makes it's money from the advertising revenues and repeats ad infinitum. It ought to teach idiots like me and you that the restoration process is rarely profitable (other than to subcontractors) and should only be done with that in mind....
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Hi Guy
Idiots? I think not. Our want/need is to restore a car which we are proud to have and know it is not a orge job. For me it is the whole process as much as the result never having done a complete restore. The Spider taught me a lot of what to do and not to do. This also gave me the chance to rebuild/mod an engine which has been on my wish list for a very long time. For me I am lucky that the cost is secondary.
On another subject you asked about the car in the background. It is a replica P4 Ferrari apparently which has had a chequered history. Originally bodied over several years in US based on a Ferrari chassis (no idea which) which should have been shortened but was not. Doors however were made for shortened chassis! Then came over to UK and chassis shortened in centre part, but by more than the door size so screen was adjusted which meant original Ferrari screen no longer fit! John has spent some time on the screen surround apparently, but is not enthused about it and it is moving on apparently. Sounds like an expensive basket case.
Peter
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On with a few other bits, have agreed with John a silver metallic to paint the grill and the wheels. If you cast you mind back I was pretty unimpressed with the paint job on the wheels and have now decided to have them painted over the powder coat once the imperfections have been taken out.
Also one of the stainless side window surrounds had a crack in the original weld, so have left that withJohn to repair.
Lastly the colour in real life is lighter than I remember, but very happy with it. Apparently main body going to be painted this weekend!
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Big week this week, the car is finally painted and John has informed me to come and sign it off.
So need to find storage for the Spider and then the real work for me begins.
Exciting and daunting at the same time, good job I am not in a hurry!
Peter
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Looks amazing Peter, like Guy you are looking to have a pretty much brand new car. As to the costs, just think how much a mediocre brand new car costs now, they only sell them because of the convoluted finance they offer.
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Looked beautiful Peter!
C
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Thanks for the encouraging comments.
Went over with the boss today to view in person and looks great, really like and more importantly so does the boss (aka Karen) The following two photos shows how difficult it is to get a real feel for the actual colour, though the first is the best representation.
Hope to get it home this coming Tuesday.
Peter
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Just wow Peter.
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A good day yesterday, Sun has been shining, package arrived from Mark W which had both the rear spring pads he is making (front ones apparently having moulds made) and after a discussion with him at the NEC he has now produced some fleeces. I had bought a LMC one, which turned out to be heavy and quite large on me, so suitable for outdoor use, but not for normal indoor use. This one however is a better fit for me and is quite lightweight, so great for indoor use.
The second thing that happened was the return of the shell from John after 2 and half years of work. Now safely put away in the garage. The Spider has moved house for now and is living with Mark H collection for the time being. Long term not sure what I will do with it as no room in the garage for both and all the parts.
Time to start on with the work, will I manage to get it back on the road within the 2 years I have estimated?
Peter
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Huge day Peter!!
Keep the Spider, there will be room in the garage for both! as the rebuild progresses you'l find there is more space than you think! At least that's what I'm finding!
Guy
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Hi Guy
Two problems with that, one is the engine stand and spare blocks which yes will eventually move on, but Karen's electric scooter has to go down the side which does mean no real space for second car now.
Peter
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Understood, some things are more important. How much longer is an HPE vs a Spider? If the Spider were tight against the back wall is there soon infront? I'm actually quite surprised how much space there is around the cars in the garage at the moment! Maybe ours is longer than the norm?
Guy
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What an exciting moment that must have been to see it arrive Peter.
I'll bet it didn't roll easily on your driveway!
I think 2 years is a very reasonable goal, even beatable perhaps.
When you are ready for an extra pair of hands on that task that needs, shout.
Nigel
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Fantastic Time Peter and in time for Spring weather. I run a line of Keter Composite sheds down one side of the rear garden for spares storage including blocks and gearboxes. They get referred to as the beach huts but look smart whilst screening the see through hornbeam hedge of the office business next door.
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Understood, some things are more important. How much longer is an HPE vs a Spider? If the Spider were tight against the back wall is there soon infront? I'm actually quite surprised how much space there is around the cars in the garage at the moment! Maybe ours is longer than the norm?
Guy
Hi Guy
There was room with the Spider both front and back, much less with the HPE, but still enough to work around, though will have to reorganise a few parts boxes....
Peter
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What an exciting moment that must have been to see it arrive Peter.
I'll bet it didn't roll easily on your driveway!
I think 2 years is a very reasonable goal, even beatable perhaps.
When you are ready for an extra pair of hands on that task that needs, shout.
Nigel
Hi Nigel
Not an easy roll, had to enlist a large fence poll at one point to help it along over the threshold.
I will bear in mind the 2nd pair of hands, just getting my head around where to start!
Peter
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Well the body has had nothing done to it since arriving until yesterday due to various other things going on, such as upturn in the weather, so jobs in the garden take priority as well as others such as the forum issues and sorting out and attending the NEC show.
So yesterday managed to insert some Dynax S50 into the rear chassis rails, sills and bulkhead. I still have the front chassis rails to do, but a reasonable start. I also started sorting out the bomb site called thengarden shed which has numerous boxes of parts from both the HPE and the Coupe, a lot of which needs to be put to one side as not going to be used, but I do not want to get rid of anything just yet unless it is beyond use. This will take several days due to the amount of stuff I have accumulated over the last few years.
Peter
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Hi
Not a lot to report, but did manage to complete the Dynax in the chassis rails and front bulkhead. Also continued with cleaning/wire wheeling/rust converting/etch priming and Hammerite painting various parts, as well as those in the photo I also had a go at the front and rear bumpers which have steel mounts and bolts for the rubber inserts. Removing the rubber inserts is not an option as the bolts are too far gone to remove. One thing I was particularly pleased with was the servo which had a fair amount of surface rust and has come up really well. This is the original off the HPE which was in better condition than the Coupe one oddly.
Peter
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Hi Peter,
If the rubber pieces on the bumpers are standing proud, it's
caused by rust expanding. This appears to occur mostly on the
later wrap-around type.
As you suggest, leave be if all look ok.
On mine, I was able to replace the rusty inserts with new studs and washers (welded together)
squeezed into existing apertures in the rubber, finished with some CT1.
N.
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Hi Nigel
Thanks, good idea. Fortunately they are not standing out. One corner you can see the rubber distorted, but at this point not worth all the heartache of taking them off especially as the worst one is on the rear which is the complete bumper in length. I have plenty of other parts to clean etc before I start putting parts back on.
Peter
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One thing I have done is remove the two wire meshes in the radiator surround which is where on early cars the air intake to the carb is. The mesh is so fine that the amount of air it lets in must be minimal so removing it has no downside to my mind especially as I aim to baffle this air up to the top of the engine as I am using pancake filters on the downdraft throttle bodies.
Peter
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I have just read this story from start to so far. Amazing, interesting, useful. Car will be amazing
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Removing the mesh may be beneficial Peter, it should help force airflow through the radiator matrix. It's a modification I plan on doing on my car when I get to that stage as it worked very effectively on the Stratos replica. The car ran a little cooler than before but ultimately it's the thermostat that will control it.
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Hi Guy
I think it will do the opposite as it opens up a route to bypass the radiator more so than if the mesh is in place and is acting as a restriction?
Peter
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I have just read this story from start to so far. Amazing, interesting, useful. Car will be amazing
Hi Mark
Yes been an interesting if expensive journey. Still a lot of hurdles to jump, but really part of the challlenge.
Hope your car arrives in good order!
Peter
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Hi
Well various distractions over previous months, so very little achieved, however managed to pluck up the enthusiasm to do a couple of little jobs.
First was to rebuild the steering column. Due to my hybrid setup, ie front being IE with power steering and wanting to use the pre facelift dash, I had assumed that I could simply use the original top part of the column and the power part of the power steering column, simples..... Well no not that simple. The upper part of the column on the IE is longer than the pre facelift manual column and the lower part is shorter. Not by much, maybe 2-3 cm, however this poses a problem in that you need to use the lower section from the IE as the power steering rack has different diameter splined fixing. So the plan was to remove the original key barrel from the old column and put it on the IE column. This went well and I was able to reuse the non reusable bolts which hold it on via cutting slots in them once removed using extracting tool.
I took the opportunity to strip the upper column so I could check and regrease the two bearings. All went back together as did attaching the two parts together. Now stored away with the rack.
The other job I had been putting off was attaching the material I had dyed to the rear seat fold out panels. This needed both adhesive and then the edges are stapled to the wooden boards. I only had ordinary metal staples (original were a brown colour), so a quick dab of brown enamel paint on them toned down the bright colour. I finally attached the metal plates I had previously painted using stainless Allen head bolts and I think they now look presentable. I will attach to the seats in due course after I have sorted out the mounting hardware, again looking to use Allen headed stainless bolts to replace the standard steel ones which are corroded.
Peter
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Do you have a preferred place to order replacement nuts and bolts? I have a few under bonnet items that have been replaced with nasty cheap bolts that are oxidising. I guess I go stainless?
Work looks good. I am wondering if I should have painted my fuel tank black Hammerite, the current stuff is still not dry?
I still cant get over your Galaxy dipped car 8) I had a Ford Mk2 Escort RS2000 BitD in venetian red, back then all the rage colours were the basics, now everyone loves the greens, dark and light blues, and light brown. Funny isnt it
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Mark,
I use Screwfix for most nut/bolt needs. If they haven't got what I want, ebay is my
go to. Everything is there.
Peter, nice work-around on the column. I assume the slot for the lock is in the correct place.
Nigel
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I use eBay for odd fasteners, recommend Spalding Fasteners, they seem to have a pretty good range but most importantly they are usually next day delivery!
Guy
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Westfield Fasteners are solid suppliers with a good range and quality.
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Hi
Mark, I tend to use stainless bolts where the tension spec is not critical and reuse original where it is or unusual such as long hub bolts. My aim this time is to dry build sections and then where necessary have the old bolts replated. A bit labour intensive, but I then know I have everything I need.
As to supplier for stainless, usually Ebay, used a number on the Spider and so far had zero issues, I tend to look for A2 rated ones as they are more corrosion resistant.
Nigel, essentially yes the lock fits the same and the splines for the Steering wheel are the same which was a question raised a little while ago, so I can reuse the old steering wheel as well as the column shrouding.
Just on to stripping the pedal box for cleaning etc.
Peter
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I tend to look for A2 rated ones as they are more corrosion resistant.
A Typo perhaps but
A2 = 304
A4 = 316
316 is typically regarded as more corrosion resistant - especially in saline environments.
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Hi Stuart
Not a typo, merely my mistaken memory. You are correct A4 is better than A2. A2 is however what I tend to buy as balance of cost versus resistance. A4 tends to be aimed at harsh environments, think salt water etc from what I can see. There is another type, A1, which I understand is less resistant than A2.
On a positive note, having sorted out the steering column, I had been looking in a number of boxes for the keys for the car without success, however today a further dive into the very cluttered shed revealed a number of small takeaway containers with various dashboard etc parts and in one of them were two door keys and a single ignition key. I checked with the barrel on the column which worked ok and the two door locks use the same key which is a bonus. I have not come across the boot lock yet to try that, but hopefully it will fit the existing keys I have. I contacted John Richard in the Wirral who cut the keys for the Spider and he is still making them. He said send a photo of the profile, so hope he can cut a couple using that, if not will send up the key to him.
Peter
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Hi
Whilst looking for the keys I came across the box with the Sun visors in. These are a cream colour, but looked like they had spent time down a mine.....
Fortunately they are in good condition and a bit of scrubbing has brought them to an acceptable condition. The photo still makes them look a little dingy, but are better in real life.
Peter
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Doing a few small jobs on items I see which need doing.
Today I had a play with the two interior lights which were well beyond their sell by date as far as the chrome coating was concerned, see first photo. I had used some ‘silver’ paint on the interior light of the Spider and still had some, so with nothing to lose, a bit of sanding, remove the black switch and tape the contacts you get the second photo (tape still on contacts). Looks more presentable if not shiny. Repeated on the second light I have.
Peter
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Final result after reinstalling the switch toggle and cleaning, installing the lens and stainless backing plate.
Peter
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Are you going to fit normal bulbs or LED's?
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Hi Mark
As per the Spider I will fit LEDs all round except the headlights.
Peter
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so now you need to tell why not the headlights?
M
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Hi Mark
Very simple, when I looked the led headlight replacement bulbs seem to require some sort of heat sink which complicated the whole rear end of the light. I also wanted to keep the original plastic caps which come with the Carello units, no space for heat sinks etc. The modern replacement bulbs are a big improvement from the old originals.
Peter
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A bit hot to do much and now watching Men's Semis at Wimbledon on TV. Did get chance to apply rust converter and then apply some high temp paint to the 4/2/1 branch exhaust down pipe. Still needs a suitable end to it, but this will protect it for now. I used this high temp paint on the Spider and it has lasted well.
Peter
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A few more random jobs done.
First cleaned and treated the front indicator/side lights, will add a new connector when I start on the loom as want to use waterproof connectors where I can.
Also cleaned off the blue overspray and washed and treated the plastic covers which fit just behind the rear windows. I had already removed the rust from the small screw in bolts and now treated them with ACF50 to help protect them from the elements. There are small rubber 'seals' over these bolts which appear in reasonable condition, again cleaned etc, but unsure how far they should go over the bolts, not the greatest design I think, may have to make a mod before fitting.
Peter
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Hi Peter,
Those C pillar plastics have come up really well. I wonder which treatment you used.
I used Owatrol colour restorer which gave a similar result but doesn't
seem to last for ever.
Those rubber gaskets around the studs would work well with a dollop
of silicon grease, which may protect them as well. I think they are mostly intended to provide
a water seal but also to prevent vibration/rattles.
Nigel
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Hi Nigel
I use Autoglym rubber restorer. I used it on the spider and been very happy with the results. As with anything it does not last forever, but it does seem to last a good while and is a pretty cheap solution.
https://www.autoglym.com/vinyl-rubber-care.html
I will look to add something to the seals to give it a more waterproof solution.
I still have to replace the old decayed rubber strip which is attached to the top of these panels.
Peter
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Hi
Some progress on random parts....
On pre facelift cars the instrument cluster has a clear acrylic sheet in front of the instruments which very often goes milky, so it looks like you are viewing the speedo etc through a fog..... My Spider was not all bad in this respect, but the HPE one and the spare I have are pretty bad. So a sheet of acrylic purchased (3mm versus original 2.5mm, 2 and 3mm are common sizes) and in the absence of a band saw, I clamped a jig saw in the vice with a blade suitable for metal, proceeded to cut out a shape based on the original. The only issue is that the original is not just a flat sheet, it has indentations to match the lugs on the surround. This is not a big issue as the acrylic forms the filling in a sandwich of the main cluster and the front bezel. I have left the protective cover on the sheet for now until it is assembled in the dash. Photo shows an original and the new one (note there are extra holes drilled in the original as I used it for some other testing...)
Over the last few weeks I have been carrying on the cleaning, rust converting, etch primer and painting. No particular order of parts except I have stripped the pedal box and associated linkage. I did find the swivel for the clutch cable was missing the ball which attaches to the clutch cable, so looking to get a replacement. Apart from that all the parts have been cleaned etc. Photo shows all the parts , I was particularly pleased with the clutch cable mount on the gearbox which was completely rusty.
Peter
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It's pretty therapeutic getting stuff back to a great finish isn't it Peter!
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Hi Guy
Yes, just daughting not knowing how much more there is to go. Body was returned months ago and done almost nothing to it so far (perhaps scared to touch it in case I damage it?).
Peter
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Hi Peter, you've got to accept that you're going to scratch it during the build up. It's a case of where and how badly. It can be touched in later! Got a couple of minor ones on mine already but nothing really visible!
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Hi Guy
I think the one area I am most afraid of is replacing the door stainless trim, still looking to see if I can find suitable tape to put on the paintwork before mounting the trim.
If anyone has any suggestions...?
Spent part of the day stripping the handbrake assembly and cleaning..... the odd thing is that it has a black handle and I think it should be brown. Given the handle has some corrosion, anyone have a spare brown handled one for sale....?
Peter
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Hi Peter, the refitting of the stainless steel covers on the door frames scared the crap out to me with fresh paint everywhere. I looked at all the trims I've accumulated and noticed a subtle difference in the ones that came off the car to later sets. All of them have a sharp profile on the outer edge but mine had a curve to the glass side that presented a smooth surface to the paint, curving slightly away. This allows you to clip it over the outer edge and, holding it firmly in place you can persuade it over the glass side with a thump of your hand. Don't hit it with a hammer and coat the back of the trim with Dynax/Waxoyl as a lubricant and protection just in case. Looking at the later trims I'd got, a lot - maybe all, didn't have this return and refitting them could well be a nightmare. I suspect that the factory had a tool to do this, maybe bending the edge into shape.
You have to start with the trim on the back edge of the door as the top trim covers this at the top corner. Don't forget the little plastic trims on the lower ends, they have to go on with the trims. When you're doing the top one make sure the door is fully open and all surrounding paintwork carefully masked off and covered with sheets.
I think there might be a photo on my thread showing the end profiles I've described but you have to look very carefully!
Guy
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Thanks Guy
I will have a look through the spare trim I have. Probably a while till I have a go at it. Still cleaning stuff!
Peter
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Me too! Actually I looked at a later one more closely that I didn't use and rather than the sharp edge or the return edge it had a fully rolled edge which, like mine, ought to slip over with a bit of gentle violence... But there will be a LOT of polishing to get the black paint off and the stainless steel up to muster!
Guy
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Hi Guy
That is the problem with all the later cars having black trim.
Peter
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What are your your rear window frames like Peter? I recall my 1978 HPE having badly rotted frames and, in the end I converted from the pin type hinge to the later type that cover the B post.
Guy
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Hi Guy
The frames were completely rotten at the base as they all seem to be (crap design), oddly the body was perfect under them which was a bonus.
I have a couple of sets of the later stainless windows, one set are the unpainted variety kindly given me by Logan who had them as spares for his HPE. The problem with all the stainless ones is that the fitment is different. The upside is that the pair from Logan had the front brackets broken off, saving me a job, and there is a crack on one of the joints, so they are to be welded and the two lugs per window added in stainless to use the original early style of fitting to the body.
Just another job to be organised and paid for!
Peter
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A few more weeks go by and have spent the time available doing more cleaning etc of rusty parts. The end is sort of in sight in that I am running out of parts that I can find. Next week hope to visit John the body guy who has a small blasting cabinet and can clean up the large box of nuts/bolts/small brackets before I send them to be plated.
Photo is of some of the latest parts to be given the cleaning, rust treatment, priming and painting.
Peter
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Managing to grap a few hours to sort out more parts, clean etc. Have not managed to visit John yet, but hopefully over the next couple of weeks.
I have a small issue with the Spider in that the intermittent wiper relay becomes less intermittent the longer it is turned on, so decided to revisit the modern wiper relay I bought and reported on some time ago. In order to install it I need to make up a cable assembly with crimp connectors. The crimper I had used on the Spider was always a make do and not really 100% correct for the job, but I had inherited it from years ago and it could be made to work. With the amount I have to do on the HPE as well as this wiper job, I decided to have a look for a new crimping tool. A bit of searching and up came a tool with multiple jaws on Temu. Now I have never bought anything from Temu despite endless ads, but at £15 I decided it was worth it to try it out and see if I get anything worth using. It arrived today and was pleasantly surprised at the quality and jaw options. Quickly had a play with a 6.3 and 2.8mm crimps and it looks to work well. The various jaws do differing crimp types some of which will be useful I think.
I also received a 12mm RIBE socket which I need for the head bolts for the engine when I get around to building it.....
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Had a few hours in the garage today, first up finished cleaning/painting the latest victims, front arb brackets and rear brake balancer parts.
Whilst waiting for various layers of paint to dry have been carrying on going through my box of bolts for plating and using a thread cleaner to make sure the threads are free of rust/crap etc. Very laborious, but worth doing I think before having them blasted.
Lastly had a delivery from Mark of front arb bushes, rear brake balancer bushes, door check strap retainer and rear arb outer bushes. He also sent an old clutch swivel for the later pedal box as mine had a missing ball. It needs a good bit of fettling, but nothing new there as the rest needed it as well…..
Good productive day
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Have turned my attention to the window winder mechanisms which are both stripped and cleaned, just waiting for some bolts to attach the handle spindle as you have to drill out the rivets to get to clean it.
Also stripped and cleaned the rear wiper mech, now in pieces ready to go back together. Quite a nice piece of kit.
Peter
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FYI Peter, the wiper arm spindle is virtually identical to that
fitted to many British cars in period. I found one listed for
a Jensen Healey which I used.
N.
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Hi Nigel
Good point, yes it is the same fitment as I converted the wipers on the Spider to so I could use the new stainless arms. I will probably get a new arm from the same supplier.
Peter
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Hi
After several days of cleaning bolts, nuts and washers + assorted brackets etc, I visited a player in Sheffield on Tuesday and collected the results today.
In general happy with the outcome (zinc plated and passiviated). The washers and nuts did not come out that well, but I am likely to use stainless in general. The unusual washers (thick or profiled) did come out well. The bolts in general came out pretty good, the only issue being the top of the heads of some did not fully plate. I will use some additional protection after assembly.
The brackets and other odd items which are not easily substituted came out well, so very happy on that score.
Photo is of some of the brackets and bars that I received back. The company does not do 'gold'passivating, so is the zinc colour. I am happy with this as some of the bolts will be stainless, so keeps the colour theme the same.
I do have more to go to the platers (not a lot, but will find more as time goes on!), but will have to use a different company as I also need the wheel bolts rechroming and the original company only do zinc. I have found a company in Nottingham who offer both, so when the time is right I will get in touch.
Having these back mean I can actually get on with putting parts on the car. I have been waiting for the bonnet stay and the bolt for the round spring retainer to allow me to safely have the bonnet open. Both are in the batch of parts.
Peter
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yellow or zinc colour they both look cool to me :-)
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Hi
A few more bits cleaned and painted.....
Main job has been the refresh of the window winder mechanisms. I stripped and cleaned the whole thing, which included drilling out the riveted plates which hold the spindle. This is necessary as there is some very unsavoury 50 year old grease in there. On the Spider I used some aluminium inserts as rivets to put it back together. This time I bought some 6.4mm rivets thinking i could simply use a hand rivet gun to install them, how wrong could I be.....
6.4mm rivets have huge pins through them, which I assume you need a special gun to use them normally. Also the smallest ones I found were 10mm long, which is a bit long for the two thin plates. So I cut the rivet part in half and then drove out the pin leaving just the rivet part. Inserting this and using a dome headed punch I was able to effectively rivet the two half togther making a much neater job than the ones on the Spider. Then the really messy job of greasing the whole thing before installing the sliding mechanism, not enjoyable and the gloves were disposed of after this!
End result is a nice smooth action, so hope that will not need doing again in my lifetime.
Peter
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Hi
Just collected my last (at least what I am aware of) parts which needed plating. Used a company in Nottingham which was more convenient than Sheffield where the last batch were done. I took better care to clean the parts this time and the results are much better, you live and learn.
I have also actually started putting parts on the car although small parts at present. This is a major step forward for me and now finding out what original early parts fit or do not fit easily onto the later front end, hopefully not too many and only the odd mounting hole will be required. First up was the bonnet restraining hoop which attaches to the front top crossmember. This should have two captive M6 nuts, one had gone awol. The hole is there, but the gap is too small to put a new one into it and the crossmember is a solid box section. Fortunately there is a round hol right near the wing, so a length of wire down the mounting hole, along the box section to this round hole, attaching the captive nut to the wire, pulling it into position was the answer. All very fiddly, but necessary. Just need to find the parts for the bonnet to attach it to now....
Peter
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Hi
Had some productive days recently which is all very positive. Essentially putting more parts on the car.
After the bits under the bonnet, I concentrated on the rear tailgate which now has the struts sort of installed (two of the mounting pins appear MIA, so ordered a pair and using temporary ones at present). Installed the lock and the rear wiper.
Then moved on to the winder mechs which I have been tripping over for a few weeks and happy to see them installed and out the way.
Lastly built up the pedal box. All pretty straight forward except the spring for the clutch, what a PITA..... The spring is so strong and needs extending a fair amount, I ended up using one of a pair of suspension spring compressors to extend the spring enough to park it in its correct place. After that waste of an hour, all went well and managed to find all the parts!
I realised I had not looked at the wiper mechanism at all which is not in that good a state. I will be stripping it, modifying it as per Nigel's mod to park the arms lower and then sending the parts off to the plated. I also have a few more bolts etc which I now realise need replating, nothing significant, just a while I am sending parts off I might as well add them to the batch as you normally get charged by the batch.
Peter
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I find I get caught out with jobs that in theory should take a few minutes and three hours later I am still there. Not sure if it me being silly or rubbish at working on cars now? :'(
Shame we all dont live near each other. Looking good though.
Mark
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Hi Mark
Yes some jobs just take forever, some which you think may be a pain go very smoothly, so on balance with some planning it tends to even out. What I find you do have to get your head around is when you find you need a widget and then have to order it and stop the job for it. I tend to have multiple jobs in mind for that occasion, so can always find something to fill the time. I also try to find a job which fits the time I have on that day. That way I get a sense of achievement despite their being setbacks.
Peter
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Hi
Some more good progress which is, as before, feels very satisfying.
First, I was less than happy with the door courtesy light switches and saw these at no money from China, so decided to see if they would fit/work (see photo). They are widely available and on fitting did not allow the door to fully close, but cutting the plastic end off allows the spindle to retract fully into the body and appears to fit and work, so will stick with them for now.
Main job I have been doing apart from stripping and cleaning the wiper assembly, is to install the pedal box, the two swivels in the engine bay for the clutch and brake, the servo and swivel attached to it and the brake interconnect rod. I have nearly finished so photos when finally done. Things will need to be adjusted when everything else is installed eg the whole braking system....
Peter
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On the Door pin switches I think I went with Land Rover Items from ebay because they come with a rubber seal better suited to our wet world. I agree the originals can not be relied on.
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Hi
Finished the brake linkage and pedal box for now.
Peter
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Looking fantastic Peter. I found building the pedal box to a high standard very satisfying.
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Thanks Eric,
Yes putting clean, painted parts back on the car is all very satisfying. Still keep finding parts which need to be cleaned and painted or plated....
Peter
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I find it fascinating seeing the the bare shell with parts starting to go into respective holes etc. Really useful when you are grovelling about in the dark recess's trying to find or fix something.
Well done on your chocolate dipped car build so far. Keep up the good work.
Mark
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Thanks Mark
A few jobs done, nothing much photogenic, stripped two wiper rack assemblies, ordered new stainless shim washers, main parts going for plating. Was amused to find small pieces of fabric inside where the spindles go into the rack between the two bushes.
Also thought quick job fit the radiator, wrong the refurbished radiator appears just slightly taller and/ir the lower mounts which were fitted to the front frame a bit too high. Either way have had to mod the top mount bracket and reduce the height of the rubber isolating bushes. So a 5 min job turned into over an hour….. Lastly, I see the refurbished radiator company ‘kindly’ knocked out the dip in the top tank where the steady bar goes. So like Neromoto I will be modding a steady bar to suit!
Peter
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Hi Peter,
The fabric you mention is, I believe, an oil soak with
two functions: to store oil ,and to provide a water seal.
I know mine has that but can't recall what it looks like.
Regards,
N
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Hi Nigel
So from that do you suggest oil for lubing the spindles, rather than light grease?
Peter
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I recall using a combination of both Peter.
I used Coppa-Slip and gear oil I think.
N.
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Thanks Mark
A few jobs done, nothing much photogenic, stripped two wiper rack assemblies, ordered new stainless shim washers, main parts going for plating. Was amused to find small pieces of fabric inside where the spindles go into the rack between the two bushes.
Any chance you can send a link to the shim washers please? I think I am missing one and I will have the wipers out again at some point. I think I lost it in my garage
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Hi Mark
Here you go
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/295491998624
Peter
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Hi
Will do an end of year recap later this week or so with some photos, however just collected what hopefully will be the last batch of plated parts, wiper mech, headlight adjusters and a few odds and sods. I had bothered the Mai. Wiper mech bodies done as I was unsure how well they would come out as there was some rust in the spindle bodies. The larger arm with the swivels I was easy to remove the swivels, the smaller one not so. I therefore ground off the rivets to remove the small swivels and will bolt the two back together again.
All together happy with the result.
I have spent some time recently with my new toy, 3D printer. The learning curve for it is not too bad to get you up and running, the real pain is learning a CAD package which I have never had to do before. I have tried a few some far and found them non trivial to get onto rung 1 which given my working background was somewhat frustrating (40 years as a computer engineer). I have however settled on what I think will do me nicely as an easier to use package called Tinkercad. There are not a bewildering number of options, it works in a browser and importantly you can import and work with .stl files. For this who are not aware, stl files are the format mainly used for parts to be imported into the 3D printer and there are a number of repositories of freely available or paid for parts which you can access online. Being able to edit one means you can take an existing part and custom change it to your needs I am aiming to use this method to create a wiper knob for the intermittent relay I am working on. However I did also come across a file for the gasket on the heater matrix to the valve. I downloaded it and printed it which came out slightly too big, so resized it and printed a test piece in PLA (PLA is the go to for test pieces as cheap and easy to print). After being happy with the print Inthen printed it in TPU which is a more flexible substance and suitable for gaskets etc. End result is very acceptable if not perfect for a first attempt. I will probably use some liquid gasket either side to ensure no leaks. Photo shows PLA version in yellow, TPU in black.
Peter
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Hi
Recap will have to wait, have kept out of the garage over the Xmas period due to not so enjoyable temps and cannot be bothered to fetch my propane bottle from the bottom of the garden and there is limited room in the garage currently to put the heater. Also only managing to get the odd hour or so at a time on any one day. So spent some more time working on design for the 3D printed seat belt reel cover which is proving an interesting challenge. The other main job completed is the re-assembly of the wiper mechanism after having the main parts re-plated and using all new seals and stainless washers. Happy with the end result which did take a few hours to do in the end. Also re-assembled the two headlight adjusters which hopefully will have electric adjusters attached to allow dipping from inside the car. This will replace the auto adjustment originally on the car which was no longer functional.
Hoping the improvement in temps over the next week will allow some more actual assembly work to be done on the car.
Peter
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Well February came and went, had a cold during it and no enthusiasm for spending time in the garage, however spent some time on the 3D printer designs.
Now the temp has finally improved, I have spent a few days in the garage with some decent steps forward, all very satisfying.
I have spent a few days under the car sorting out mounting the new fuel tank. The complication is that it is aluminium and although styled on the original, is not an exact size replacement. So I am using the original front two studs to mount it, but at the rear the mounting bars are just too short for the studs, so have installed a pair of rivnuts. Also I am aiming for the tank to not be secured firmly to the chassis, but to use stainless straps and bushes so that the chance of the aluminium coming under strain is eliminated. Still waiting on some spacers, so will update when final assembly happens.
The other two main jobs completed are the installation of the radiator shrouds at the front of the car and after seeing the parts in plastic crates for what must be 2 years after I cleaned and painted etc, I finally reassembled the struts. The spring compressor I bought off Ebay, although not inexpensive, proved sooo much easier and safer than the old school pair of rods I used before. Very happy with it.
Peter
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Just arrived today replacement clips for the door card. I took a punt and bought these on Ebay from China. They fit the card and the printed door inserts nicely so at £3.99 for 40, a bit of a steal.
Peter
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I bought some others, they sort of work but not really.. can you share the link to these please?
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Hi Mark
I have more than I need so will bring some along to the NEC.
The Ebay link one of various sellers is
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/127698061364
Note that I have not tried these with the original clear plastic plugs which are original, just with the plugs I printed, though would expect them to work ok.
Peter
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(y)
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So rewind what seems like several months and I came to fit the new petrol tank I had made a few years ago now. Simple job, 4 holes and should be well on my way, I wish.........
Over the last few months I must have spent a good weeks worth of time devoted to it, starting with the mounting arms being too short for the rear studs in the chassis needing some rivnuts to be installed. The arms were too low so they were below the chassis so the existing studs at the front had to be extended. I also wanted to isolate the tank from being fixed rigidly to the chassis as it is aluminium so as to avoid any stress cracks. So a using the 3D printer various spacers and bushes were made. Lastly I wanted to install a pair of stainless straps with protection to avoid chafing of the two metals, again 3 D printer time.
I realise this is probably all overkill, but peace of mind where petrol is concerned is important I think. So yesterday was a milestone moment, I fitted the tank with all the myriad pieces in what will be its final resting position, hurrah he says. Still have the straps to finish and the tank is to be painted black on the sides which are visible as well as installing the various connectors and the level sensor. At least I am getting there with it.
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Great to meet you and your lady wife on Friday, I noticed the red Beta IE had a tank a little like your new one
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Hi Mark
Well spotted, I did not look that far, just thought the car looked well and heard that the owner visited our stand on Saturday.
Peter
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Hi
Removed the tank and gave it a coat of etch primer and black paint and fitted the studs to allow the level sensor to be attached. Thanks to Guy who is sending a new one which is just a level sender as I have separate take offs from the internal swirl pot. I then loctited the standoffs and finally fitted the tank for the last time. Hopefully the black will allow the tank to disappear into underside. I had made a pair of straps, but decided, for now at least, to not use them as I feel the fixings are plenty secure enough.
I also spent some time adjusting the rear hatch which protruded beyond the rear corners. This was relatively simple job by loosening the screws at the top and there was enough movement to allow for correct alignment.
Peter
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Hi
So next project was to sort out the door locking mechanisms and the stainless surrounds.
Sorted out which surrounds to use except the outer window scraper strips, all of which are broken, so some head scratching to be done there. I need to polish up the stainless before fitting.
After sorting the stainless, I assembled all the door locking mechanisms and picked out a set to clean etc. This went well and I proceeded to put the first set in the car. it was a case of two steps forward and occasionally two steps back or just one. I managed to fit the door handles to the wrong doors at first which is not that trivial as you need to remove the L shaped bolt for the hinging mechanism and fit that with the handle half into the door via the C clip. I also managed to fit the whole of the latching mechanism without connecting the long bar which goes to the front handle, however you can only fit that bar with the mechanism out of the door. I also found that the lock barrel on later cars is subtly different to the early ones which meant I had selected one of the attachment pieces from a later car which then had to be changed. I only found this of course after it was fitted in the door. So what should have taken probably a couple hours took a couple of short day sessions to complete.
Now on with stainless where I need to design and print the small plastic protection pieces for the ends of the stainless which is going to take some time as there are 3 types on each side.
Peter
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Hi Peter,
I may be able to help you with the strips, assuming the HPE doors are the same as the Coupe / Spider? Send me a private message with pics of what you are after and I'll have a look tomorrow.
Cheers
Carl
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Thanks Carl, PM sent.
Peter
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Sadly Carl did not have what I needed, so hunt will go on, though not tried too hard yet.
I managed to get some quality time in the garage today which is proving harder to find currently due to other home commitments.
I am continuing on with the door furniture, cleaning the U strips for the window glass to run in. For once I do not need to buy new as the old is in decent condition. I also started the long job of cleaning and polishing the stainless trim on car. For the Spider I bought a stainless polishing kit which has three wheels and blocks of paste. There is a coarse, medium and final polishing wheel. I have decided to just use the final polishing wheel on the trim I have as that will take long enough and accept any fine scratches which are left. I managed to clean and polish 5 pieces today which was satisfying and the results were well within being acceptable.
Peter
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I think today was day 5 or was it 4 of polishing the stainless trim, starting to lose the will to live with it, so after finishing the long gutter sections and halfway through the rear window surround (an hour spent removing the old sealing stuff before polishing) I am going to park it and do something else when I next get chance to work on the car. On the positive note most parts are coming up really well, the only part which is a bit dented, and would be a pain to find a replacement, is one of the retainers for the carpet which sits just inside the door aperture. I may try to address the dents and see if it can be improved.
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Might that job be one you could delegate to a paintless dent removal body guy? Unless you really know what you're doing it might end in tears? I guess finding a replacement will not be easy these days.
Guy
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Hi Guy
An interesting option. I will see who is local.
Here is a photo of both the attic (dump room) and parts polished so far!
Petet
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Been there and done that Peter! Still got a few scratches but it's acceptable for me!