Lancia Beta Forum
General Category => Members Cars => Topic started by: SanRemo78 on January 08, 2023, 02:27:19 PM
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Well, actually it began quite a while ago.... I won't bore you all with the story but if you want to refresh my story it's here!
http://www.lanciabeta.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4409.0 (http://www.lanciabeta.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4409.0)
So, last July we moved house to a place with a double garage which, in theory, was going to allow me to carry on with the build of Stratos 2 but that never happened as the market went crazy in the last year and I decided to pass it on to another builder with the budget to do it justice. It's being collected some time before Easter so I thought it was about time to start the search in earnest. I'd seen a couple of VX Coupes but the state of the tin didn't make me want to dive in. A couple of very expensive ones (on eBay and at a Newcastle auction house) were possibilities but I decided that I probably needed something to keep me a little busier.
So I bought some bits!
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So, can anyone identify the bits third, sixth and seventh from the top?
I know the top two are gutter trims and there's door card clips and one sill cover but the other two are a mystery to me. Obviously there's a coupe side window and an early (1600?) grille.
I also got these bits
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Which left me with a bit of an issue - the bits needed to attach the front bumper to the back bumper.
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So I've just unloaded this onto the driveway
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I'm sure some of you will have seen this on eBay recently. Please accept my apologies for my outbidding you. And if you did bid, please keep it to yourself as I ended up paying more than I thought I would(but a little less than I was prepared to pay)! ;D ;D ;D ;D
So, what have I acquired sight unseen (in my defence it was a 500 mile round trip from Formby to Norwich!).
Well, it's a May 1981 2000 Coupe that the registration docs say is white but has a rattle can finish in satin black. It's MOT history on DVLA says it hasn't had it's first MOT yet and the registration document (an old style one) lists a former keeper acquiring the car in December 1992 and the next change in August 2008. So, some long term owners who did nothing with the car than store it. It has some plusses and some minuses.
The minuses:
It's incomplete - I'll come to those bits later.
It has a slight compression issue. It has none. The cylinder head is in the boot. The block is in the engine bay. I have no idea how long they've been apart but the cause of separation is a bent valve. I haven't tried turning the engine yet, the bores look okay, well, at least not rusted up so maybe there is hope for the original drivetrain.
Brakes look beyond saving. Minimum is new discs, overhaul of callipers and blasting/plating/painting of carriers before new pads go anywhere near it.
Power steering. Absent. Actually it has the earlier rack so that's great! I'll get a workout.
Tyres. Well, it has four. And they're a mixture of Continentals and Acceleras. Other than that they're all perished and none will hold air. The rims are 16 inch something or others and look awful (to my eyes) so I'll be going 14inch standard FPS or 15 inch Delta eventually.
It has a sunroof which appears to be flush but I'm not opening until the car is under cover.
Electric windows. Bet they won't work. Ever.
There are puddles in the boot. Sorry - that should have been in the plusses list!
There's filler in the windscreen scuttle panel corners, how much I don't know yet.
It's had the bonnet release cables/mechanisms removed. And bonnet pins fitted so there are now holes in the bonnet that need plating. The pins were in the glovebox.
No fuel filler flap.
Two keys but I can't get the door locks to play nicely...
Speakers cut into the door cards. Hate hate hate.
No history at all. We start from scratch now.
The passenger quarter light is hole free so no mirror on that side. I can't recall seeing one like that before but it's S1 glass so maybe it came like that or earlier glass was fitted after a break in?
There's a Panasonic radio cassette in it. I'll probably find something more suitable looking with a DAB upgrade because:
There a hole in the rear wing for the aerial. Something else to get plated.
Well it has a fuel tank but I have no idea what state it's in. Probably full of rust knowing my luck
Plusses
There are puddles in the boot. Because there are not gaping holes to let it out. There was a couple of bedsheets that were soaking some of it up whist supporting the various dismantled bits stored in there. All removed now to reveal a solid floor and the rear suspension turrets look rock solid. I probably should not have said that just yet.
Front turrets also look solid although there is some evidence of light corrosion and some primer on the nearside inner chassis rail, hopefully that's just preventative!
The underside looks solid too - but I haven't had it up on ramps so that's probably tempted fate once too often.
The interior looks pretty good, the dash has a little delaminatation by the vents and a bubble or two by the binnacle, probably repairable. It smells a little damp but there's no mould. I'll put that down to it being outside for a few weeks and being brought back in torrential rain. The interior will be removed quickly to clean/store/dry so I can assess the state of the floor.
That's about it for now after a quick assessment. Next - the missing bits and a plea?
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The missing bits - if anyone has spares they are willing to part with please let me know - beer tokens await!
I've deleted the list that was here originally - I've moved it to the parts wanted section and will amend the list and strike through items when I've found them!
http://www.lanciabeta.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4847.0 (http://www.lanciabeta.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4847.0)
Thanks for checking for me!
Guy
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Hello Guy, glad that you finally have your Beta.
I definitely have a sill cover that you can have and I have some other trims, but like you, I'm not sure what they are. Next time I have the car out I'll spread them out and take a photo.
On cars of that period the nearside mirror was an extra at purchase.
Enjoy
Neil
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PS: I have side repeaters, but fairly sure they have the black base unfortunately....
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Exciting times Guy.
You are welcome to use mine to compare and play spot-the-trim, but not sure it would be the same?
Mark
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Thank you Mark and Neil (and Peter by email).
I see a day out doing the rounds of Shifnal, Grantham and Saltaire to see what's available to finish off the jigsaw! Perhaps it might be better to wait for the disassembly to begin and add to the list and find th first Beta Meet of 2023?
When I emptied the boot I found one side repeater. No studs and part of the base broken off which may explain the Fulvia ones fitted to it. That may yield the stainless trim to convert a black based one.
I've just added a couple of things to the parts wanted thread..
Guy
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Nice purchase. Good to see another Beta on the road to recovery.
On the subject of a lock set, If you have a door key, you can re-pin all the locks to match. You can do it yourself or get a willing locksmith to help you out. Its not rocket science, just fiddly. And there's a thread on here about it I think.
cheers
Ian
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Thanks Ian, it's not something that scares me at all - somebody put it together so I can take it apart (usually!) but the chances of me fixing all but one of them are high. Plus there's a fair bit to do so shortcuts might be welcome!
Parts wanted list updated. Again!
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Hello Guy,
The LHD column stalk is available new, but appears to be very slightly different
from the original, as even the LHD cowls don't fit without fettling.
It's worth getting new, as used items always have some wear slop in them.
I got mine from Ricambio but i've seen others selling too.
Expect around £170.
Those numbered trim pieces: I don't think they are Coupe stuff.
Cheers, and good goings with the build
Nigel
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Right - the mystery parts are identified after I got them home today after a long round trip from Liveppool to Bristol & back!
Part number 3 is chromed plastic and in the bin now. It's not Beta!
Part number 6 is a carpet edge door trim - I need to have a look at the car and see if they're there or not and, if they're not, which side did I just acquire and add the other to the wanted list.
Part number 7 is a unicorn! Not only is it the rear panel stainless trim that attaches to the two corner pieces that I found in the boot it also has the fixing clips in place! Proper result I think.
Bumpers are okay, I need to have a better look in daylight, the front one has a slight twist at one end that I think I can straighten, all the fixing points are also there and intact! There are two rear ones and one is definitely better, just need to look at the rubber on them and see which is the best.
There's a side window with seal that I don't need but will keep for anyone else who needs one.
There's an early grille (1600) that's been painted red but is warped badly. If anyone want this please shout, I won't throw it away!
Guy
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Hello Guy,
The LHD column stalk is available new, but appears to be very slightly different
from the original, as even the LHD cowls don't fit without fettling.
It's worth getting new, as used items always have some wear slop in them.
I got mine from Ricambio but i've seen others selling too.
Expect around £170.
Those numbered trim pieces: I don't think they are Coupe stuff.
Cheers, and good goings with the build
Nigel
Thanks Nigel - with the exception of one piece they are all Coupe parts. And a great buy at £50 for the lot! Well worth the trip.
I'll keep an eye on various markets for the LHD stalks and cowls. I did change a set back in the day (and don't remember any issues with that but 30 years and the mists of time etc..). I want to change them so the stalk pattern is the same as the Stratos, Alfa and Panda - only Lancia bothered having separate RHD market stalks to keep the indicators on the opposite side of the steering wheel! This old bugger will be constantly wiping the screen when trying to turn left if I don't sort it now!
Guy
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Guy,
In case you've not seen it, there's a photo on my 'HPE recommission' page
of the 2 small brackets I made in order to fit it to the RHD column.
For the cowls, Kevin (betaveloce) may still have a pair.
Nigel
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Thanks Nigel, I'll follow up for the cowls and have a look for the thread with the photograph later tonight!
I've had a slightly productive day cleaning out the scuttle panel of various nuts & bolts left there and taking out loose water rails, the expansion tank and pipework, separating the alternator from the block (not removed as I need to document connections - an earth strap I don't recall but shouldn't be surprised about given the rubber mountings).
And when it was blowing a hooly outside I was busy in the garage cleaning and polishing some of the stainless trim I picked up yesterday! One rain gutter, the rear panel trim and one sill plate done and stored safely out of harms way now. One more gutter trim to do tomorrow.
I've checked the interior and the carpet is fixed down with the plastic edging so the stainless one I collected yesterday is surplus to requirements. If anyone can make use of it please shout! i'm not going to throw it out!
Guy
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Hi Guy
The carpet edge trim may be of use to me, suggest you bring it when you decide to venture my way unless of course someone else is in dire need, in that case feel free to send it that way.
Peter
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It's yours Peter!
Guy
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A huge thank you to Tim who supplied a lot of the missing parts today, well worth the drive to the Peak District for a day out with a fellow Lancisti but the pile of parts in the boot of the Alfa, on the back seat and in the footwells was just mega! I'll be unloading it in daylight to avoid damaging anything tomorrow. Wanted list updated again!
Thanks Tim, you're a star!
Guy
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So, Monday 16th January 2023, and I've started the teardown. And added some more parts to the wanted list! Hey ho.
It's been on the driveway since I brought it home waiting for space in the garage and it's going to need some seals. It leaks somewhere. Maybe everywhere. Condensation on the inside of the glass was the clue, maybe it got in there on the long drive home from Norwich or maybe it's just the crap weather or I didn't notice it when picking it up..... Anyhooo. It was a swimming pool in there which, oddly, was a little encouraging. Colanders don't hold water....
Got home today about 11ish after a run to the vets with the cat. Repeat trip tomorrow. Don't ask. And it's the first dry day since I got the car. Well, outside the car anyway. So, time to strip out the interior, dug out the toolkit and started around 12. With this:
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Of course I was concerned about corroded fixings in a 40 year old Beta but how bad could it be? Only way to find out was to start! So, passenger seat, four allen bolts and the first issue, the seat tilt mechanisms are frozen or loose. The seats slide though so forward enough to get at the rear ones and back to get the front ones out. All tight but free! Repeat for the drivers seat. Happy days. Then the carpet edging, pulled the rubber infill out and 5 Phillips screws per side. Out of the 10 all came out without fuss! Put them back in their holes, infill back in place and onto the shelf. Door bins, 4 screws on the passenger side and 3 on the drivers. One totally AWOL but all just popped out. Then the seatbelts, left and right in the sills and either side of the centre tunnel. Tight to start but all came undone without fuss! Rear seats just lifted out. Side trims, two screws in each armrest, one Phillips in the trim at shoulder height, two in each stainless trim behind the belts and the plastic clips just pop out. I think one broke. Both cards are damp. Bugger. Two bolts on each seatbelt bracket and one each keeping the reels in place. No complaints from them either. That gave me a first look at tinwork on the inside of the rear wings. There's rustproofing fluid sprayed everywhere.
Next it's the centre tunnel. Two screws and two plastic fir tree types fix the middle to the bottom, simple job and out it comes once cables are undone. Two screws at the front on each side of the console and two midway on the floor. Gearlever trim off, gearlever knob off and the first breakage, the rubber is perished and it pretty much disintegrates. I need another or something aftermarket now. Hey ho. Then the centre tunnel comes out and we're making progress. Footwell kick panel under the dash drops out and straight on the shelf! Two screws holding down the bridge over the gear mechanism for the centre tunnel just undo easily and then lever the back of the tunnel over the seatbelt bracket and the centre tunnel is out.
Two nuts to remove the seatbelt bracket from the floor, three nuts from the gear change mechanism and I can slide the carpet towards the back of the car, over the handbrake and gear-lever and it's out too. Now hanging up in the garage drip drying. I'll need to shampoo it properly in the summer but it looks good despite all the ingrained crud with just a minor split in the drivers footwell mat.
And I'm left with this...
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Then a little work with a scoop and a sponge and the carpet is coming out and it's moment of truth, what's the floorpan like underneath?
A bit like this actually!
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More work with the sponge and rip out the underfelt to get at the floor underneath and see what the metal is like. Well, you're going to have wait for a photo as this muppet forgot to take one as it was getting dark and I needed to tidy up and put a cover over the car. Suffice it to say there are no holes in the floor that I can see that shouldn't be there. There is a fair bit of surface corrosion and one area, about 12 inches by 3 inches that's not pretty but looks strong. I'll find out next time I look at it. Next task is to hoover out the remains of the underfelt that turned to dust when I lifted it out (only the drivers footwell - the others were soaking and fell apart) as well as the loose crap that's lying on the floorpan. I'll treat the surface rust with a converter and red oxide primer as soon as I can.
I'll post a picture of the floorpan once I've hoovered it out if I remember!
So, what's left inside the car now? It's the rear seat backs - I think they undo from inside the boot?
The door cards - they're next once I've identified which way to push the door handle trims off so I don't break the locating lugs!
The trim above the drivers footwell (never seen one of those before - but never gone looking!)
The dashboard which can wait a while as well as the headliner and sunroof. It'll need to be under cover before I can strip out the glass to deal with that.
Next on the list is to fit a set of inflated tyres Tim gave me so I can move it more easily and then get it into the garage to remove the block and gearbox and assess the other mechanical bits!
Loving it so far!
Guy
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Hi Guy
Looking good so far, especially if those rear inner wings are in good shape.
Peter
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Hi Peter, I think the rear inner wings are solid, both sides, front and back. I need to remove the seat backs to be able to see all around them and maybe the mastic pads on the inside of the boot as well as the floorpan but judging by the state of the inside surfaces of the outer wings visible now the trims are out it's just caked with rustproofing fluid.
The original plan was to dip the shell and I will probably do that but it's going to remove what's saved the car's body until now and may open up seams that are then hard to fully dry out, prime, paint and rustproof again. I'll be needing advice from specialists before I take that step. It may be better just to remove paint in suspect areas and/or check with a magnet. There are issues with the front screen surround and the roof by the sunroof.... I wonder how easy it is to find a pristine roof/scuttle panel from a 1600 and do a sunroof delete?
Obviously I'll be letting experts see the state of the shell before much is done to it. Tim and Jacob are planning a visit once it's safely tucked away in the garage!
Guy
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Great work Guy
On the Shell strip / dip both Stuart and I used Envirostrip because there is no acid dip that can be left in seams. You do need to make sure ALL box sections have large enough drain holes. I had a bit of residual carbonized paint in the inner roof box and the seat cross boxes. It was easy to get rid of and not like the Sand Blast experience where sand appears for 10 years after!
Enjoy
Eric
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Are they in Tamworth? I'll have a look at their website and have a think! I guess it's an expensive process, there seems to be quite a lot involved?
Guy
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Well here's the floorpan without the soundproofing felt.. Some corrosion but no perforations that I've found yet. Some areas to be treated at the weekend with rust converter and primer.
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And here's the crossmember under the rear seats - was this the potentially problematic one Peter referred to?
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And here are the rear suspension towers, I need to remove the bitumen pads covering them but I see no signs of corrosion or rust staining yet. Hopefully it'll stay that way.
Left tower inside the boot, left tower down into the inside of the wheel arch and right tower inside the boot.
Apologies if anything isn't clear enough - I have tried to brighten the exposures a little!
Guy
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And here's the crossmember under the rear seats - was this the potentially problematic one Peter referred to?
Hi Guy
Yes it is underneath this crossmember which can be unpainted and often rots, but your floor looks pretty amazingly good…..
Peter
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This is the worst patch I've found so far Peter, it's passenger side footwell next to the inner sill. The white spots aren't perforations but flakes of white paint. It does need urgent treatment and possibly cutting out and plating properly. That's not a huge issue in the scheme of things!
I suspect there is metalwork to be done on the front inner wings on the upper box section, the windscreen surround/scuttle and sunroof. Fortunately there are repair panels available and others aren't complex shapes.
Guy
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If you want to be 100% sure you'll need to remove that bitumen type sound deadening and get someone to shine an inspection lamp from underneath while you look for pinholes - but it does look surprisingly good. How are the U section channels that run along the edges of the floors?
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Hi Guy
I assume this car had the front wing liners?
If so then they usually save you a lot of grief compared to the earlier cars where the inner and outer wings rotted out all along the top part of them.
Peter
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I plan to have some fun removing the bitumen pads from the floor and suspension towers once it's under cover in the garage. It might spook the neighbours a little though Stuart!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMMddYg1Zxw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMMddYg1Zxw)
And yes Peter, it has the plastic inner arch liners, all look to be intact, hopefully the fixing screws will come out as easily as every single one in the interior did! No chance, this stuff will have been exposed for longer!
I'm hoping it will be good underneath too!
Guy
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Hi Guy
Yes they are in Tamworth and a HUGE timesaver for a full restoration including getting those bitumen pads off. Be aware of course it will show the absolute truth about the shell i.e. holes you did not know about, previous dodgy repairs, accident damage hidden behind filler etc. I thought I had given them a fully re-metaled shell but still found pin holes in the floor under the seat support cross member.
Do not send them Petrol tanks to strip because the process melts the solder holding the pipes in place and you get a petrol tank kit back as I did!
As always time vs money and how much do you like stripping paint and sound proofing.
Take lots of pictures now of everything. When it comes to re-doing the sound proofing and wiring you will be glad you did.
Eric
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Guy - also I haven't forgotten about the spit / tilter. I just keep running our of hours in the day.
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Thanks both!
No rush on the pictures Stuart, the car isn't in the garage yet to be stripped. It still isn't on wheels that hold air yet. But that might change this weekend! Once in the garage I'm hoping teardown will take a few weeks/a month if I can get to it daily for a few hours. It's the bagging, labelling etc that will take the time. A chassis tilter/rotisserie would be nice, I'm not looking forward to trying to remove fuel lines and suspension bits whilst underneath the car.
I'm not looking forward to removal of the front and rear screens although I think it'll need a new front one, I spotted some delamination yesterday. Hey ho.
Guy
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Greetings Guy,
It looks like you've found a really good shell, and most of the bits appear sound.
If you have a heat gun, warming the bitumen slightly make removal
relatively easy.
On the windscreen, there's quite a long lead time at Pilkingtons so it's worth
ordering early on. There's an abrasive screen-cutting wire which makes removal easier.
You commented on the power windows early on: The motors will probably be ok, it's
the spiral cables that may be worn at one end, a reversal cures that. Fiddly, but do-able.
The window tracks/felt guides also gum up.
Watching, and you've my renewed enthusiasm for mine which has been waning a bit
recently!
Nigel
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Stuart - you mentioned U section channels down the side the car - do you mean the tops of the inner sills where the carpet retainer screws to? If so, one side has some corrosion but nothing holed as far as I can see. Job for the weekend if it's dry is to wipe all the crud away and get a good look at it. It can't be good everywhere!
Nigel - thanks for the tip on removing the drive cable and putting it back in the other way - I'm not sure I would have thought to try that, if they don't run smoothly I can try that after cleaning the channels. At the moment it would be daft to connect a battery, there are loose and unterminated cables everywhere. Wiring used to scare me but having build the Stratos loom from scratch (all the smoke is still in!) I'll check it over one cable at a time, strip off the covering and re-wrap with new terminals throughout. Luckily for me there are wiring diagrams in the Haynes manual... I'll also take your advice on the screen and get an order in when the shell goes for paint.
I hope the posts to come help you get back to your car so another one will make it to the next Beta meet.
Guy
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Hi Guy
On the Electric Windows Beta Boyz to the rescue as Mark sells new furry drive wires and the rest of the job is cleaning away and replacing grease that has turned to concrete. If you can't get them then Nigel's solution is a good one provided a previous owner did not get there before you.
Eric
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Thanks for the tip Eric, I'll bear that in mind when I get the motors out of the doors and strip them down. New sounds like the way to go whilst this stuff is available but the reverse the cable trick is just brilliant! I wouldn't have thought to try that. I can see me investing in a parts washer at the moment!
Okay, thanks to Tim the car now sits on four inflated FPS standard Lancia wheels. I'm not sure one will stay inflated as I had to put a can of goop into it but they'll do for moving it around. I took the opportunity to look around the inside of the left suspension turret and it looks as good underneath as it did from inside the boot. I forgot to look at the right one. Oops.
The carpet has been slowly drip drying in the garage for a few days now, it's still very slightly damp but has come out way better than I expected it to. Come Summer I'll give it a good hosing down in the back garden and a shampoo and let it dry in the sun. There are a couple od splits in the passenger mat but that's all. What I did notice is that there was still some factory clear plastic on the edges underneath the side fixings so this may well be the first time the carpet has been out of the car in 40 years! The plastic protective film is stapled to the carpet and guess what - the staples rust and I bet they've damaged the paint slightly, maybe enough to let some surface rust start?
Anyway, the car is now mobile again even if I can't move it with the handbrake applied! Rusty discs will grip anything!
Guy
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And the V5 arrived today in my name, the car is now SORN'd until I get it MOT'd - a while down the road yet!
Are any of the previous owners of HHV43W on here? Or close relatives?
It may be next week before I get back to her. The Panda is getting a new set of brake discs, pads and refurbished wheels with new tyres at the moment. The poor Alfa will be feeling left out!
Guy
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Today was a Fiat Panda morning followed by some stainless steel cleaning/polishing:
The rear panel side trims cleaned up really easily and a set of clips Tim gave me on damaged ones were carefully removed and the fixing bolts replaced with some stainless ones. Now safely stored out of the way with the rest of the rear trim. Only the actual boot edge one to do now.
I turned to the sill trims and noticed I've got an early one (with the Lancia L/Shield) either side of two panels. The later one just has three matching panels. Dilemma - I prefer the early one but the later is correct for my car. I guess I'll have to go with the next one that turns up to make a matching pair. I still need one right end trim for these.
Next up was the rain gutters and that turned up another missing piece - the end trim for the right side one at the back (near the side vents). There are none present at the front ends - should there be any there?
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Fairly sure that the sill trim I offered is the later type.
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I'll take you up on that kind offer Neil - don't post it though, it'd suffer I'm sure. Next time our paths cross can you bring it with you?
And thanks to Chris Mace (Betabuoy) I now have the missing exhaust manifold and heat shield and have made a donation to the forum as agreed.
More cleaning of removed parts tomorrow I think!
Guy
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Will do
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The last few days have been spent making sure Stratos2 is packed up and ready to leave and getting the Panda back on it's refurbished wheels - that turned out really well - good enough to spend an afternoon giving it a wash and shammy dry and then doing the Alfa so it didn't look too bad.
The only part I haven't found for Stratos2 yet is the circlip collar for the outer CV joint (the one that keeps the circlip in it's groove when you pop the shaft into the CV joint). There IS another spare driveshaft on a shelf somewhere in the garage I need to find and then the car is ready for collection at the end of the month.
So, work on Beta7 has been limited this week, plus it's been wet and/or cold outdoors this week. Anyway, rear seat backs unscrewed and removed and stored. Now I can see what the original trim colour was like - I doubt it'll clean up completely but you never know. Last of the puddles have been dried out and that might give me a chance to clean up the floorpan and treat the surface rust. The aerial has been removed and the hole taped over - it'll get welded up. Both rear lights came out easily, fixings mostly broken so that's the first repair job to be addressed before they go into the storage box. The frames each have one fixing screw sheared, I doubt I can fix them properly but there are enough to hold them in place. Both frames have overspray that comes off with a bit of elbow grease and a few bits of corrosion that's probably going to bug me but I doubt there are perfect ones out there. One has a crack between the centre horizontal bar and the outer edge - JB Weld will sort that. The lenses have seen better day, lots of minor scratches but no cracks. One side Siem, the other Altissimo. The reflector bodies are rough but repairable with a little fibreglass and new rivbolt studs, a good clean and maybe a respray of the silver surfaces. The bulb holders look serviceable but one has a broken side clip, the broken bit was in the boot!
I found a minor perforation of the steel under the right light cluster on the seam. Won't be the last! I've started cleaning out the crud in the bottom of the boot and the floors behind the rear inner arches and they're all rock solid. If we get a warm day I'll think about removing the bitumen from the towers to see if they are as good as I hope! There is some plating on the inside of the boot that's odd, probably minor accident repairs? I'm sure I'll discover filler on the rear panel. The repair isn't pretty but it looks strong and will be covered by the carpet eventually.
The car was missing it's sun visors but a pair appeared on eBay this week and an offer has been accepted for them. Should be here next week. One more missing part crossed off the list!
Guy
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This morning was dry so I got underneath the bonnet to carry on stripping out the various parts left on the engine to make lifting it out easier when the time comes. The alternator & bracket came off, distributor out, dipstick & tube, water rails, horn and compressor all put on the refurb shelf. Wiring moved out of the way etc. I think I've just got the shocks on either end end of the drivetrain to disconnect, the gear linkage, two driveshafts and three engine mounts to undo and it'll come out. Here's some pictures showing the inner wings, they need cleaning up but look solid to me. I have no idea how long the head has been off and I haven't attempted to turn the engine yet, I need to clean out the bores in case there's anything in there but the bores look okay to me, hopefully a clean and light hone will be all that's needed!
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This afternoon was spent in the garage. I looked at the air horns and wondered...... as you do.
Oops. Woke the wife up!! So I spent the rest of the time cleaning 40 years of crud off to find a nice red finish underneath the horns and pipework and a decent black on the compressor. The mounting bracket has been wire brushed, rust converted and zinc primed. It won't be an original finish but it'll get a coat or two of satin black tomorrow and that's the first thing that'll go in a box labelled "restored, ready for re-installation". It's a minor step but a positive first one.
I've polished up the lenses for one rear cluster and most of the frame. That needs another 24 hours to see if the JB Weld will hold. I may have disturbed it too soon. I can always dig it out and try again.
That's it for this week!
Guy
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And a lovely day her in sunny Formby - all day long. Apart from 90 minutes when the boiler was being fixed I was on the driveway from 10.30 to 4pm. Wiring loom removed and labelled from the rear corners of the boot and coiled up on the front footwells. That entailed two connectors being snipped for the heated rear window so it they could be pulled from underneath the trim. I also pulled the fuel filler neck off so I could drop the fuel tank half an inch to allow the sender cables to be pulled through. Still not had an issue with any fixings except one plastic screw block that doesn't want to come out. It will.
I did a little scraping of the floorpan and inner sills and removal of the adjoining bitumen pads where the glue had failed and treated them to some rust converter. There is a patch in front left footwell that'll need cutting out and replacing and another on the top of the drivers side sill that I managed to punch through with a screwdriver, nothing severe. I did find some corrosion on the right rear suspension tower, a small patch where the fuel line has rubbed the paint away and another at the front where there's a join with the inner wing. I think they'll be fairly straight forward to cut out and fix properly.
I can see (and smell) fuel at the bottom of the filler pipe so I guess that's one of the next tasks before It comes into the garage. Any guesses as to how much will be in there if it can be seen there? Half a tank? I think I might need to look into disposal, not sure I want to risk putting into another car! I wonder if the council tip takes it?
Other stuff on the calendar tomorrow but the next dry day will probably see me start on the removal of the heater box and dashboard after taking the door cards off. If I can leave the steering column in place ready for the move into the garage.
Guy
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Hi Guy
Whilst I remember if you can get hold of a Numatic George Hoover it will clean up your carpet and possible the seat/ panel trim very nicely.
Enjoy
Eric
PS it clean my carpet to an amazing extent.
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Thanks for the tip Eric, the carpet came up pretty well for just a brush and light hoover except for a few rust stains from the seatbelt mount bracket. It's certainly worth a go! I can hire one for not very much.
Guy
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I managed to had a look at why the seats weren't playing nicely. Neither had the crossbar linking the rake adjusters. I found one in the pile of bits I didn't throw away as I wasn't sure of it's origins but now I'll need another. Added to the list. I did remember to remove the boot light but the lenses is melted. Fortunately this is a Stratos part and I happened to have a spare one! And I also dug out an old spare Beta driveshaft as I needed to extract the outer collar for Stratos2! It all came apart easily enough but in taking pictures to demonstrate the reassembly I stabbed myself in the thumb with a screwdriver.... Idiot! Does anyone have an idiots guide for how the get the collar over the ring in it's groove in preparation for fitting it into the outer CV joint? I'll be doing that twice in the coming months!I did think about a suitable jubilee clip to compress it and then using the ring to slide it down the splines. a bit like a piston ring compressor tool...
Guy
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Guy,
I recall in the past I removed the spring ring, compress it so that it's
static end-to-end, and fit it back on the shaft. The collar should now
be a slide fit. You can always open up the ring if it's a bit 'small'.
Nigel
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Thanks Nigel, I'm a little concerned that compressing the ring to the extent that the collar slips over is the right thing to do? If it's compressed beyond it's memory position it won't expand once the collar is released on pressing it into the outer CV and might allow the shaft to slip out of joint? How catastrophic that might be I don't know. But I do know that I don't want to find out! I'll re-read the Haynes manual and see what it says come the day the shafts are reassembled!
Guy
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Got bored of working at the back of the car, not that there's a lot left bar the fuel tank and it's plumbing, so I moved to the other end for a change of scenery!
And i found the first screw that wouldn't come out with a Phillips screwdriver. It moved easily enough with a pair of molegrips. So, wiring looms down each inner wing have been unclipped, labelled and moved as far back as I can get them for now. The brake warning sensor wires need to be undone before I can get them back to the bulkhead. The radiator grille cam out very easily and a little WD40 on the headlamp bolts saw them follow quickly. Moving inside the radiator shroud came out easily enough but the nearside panel is heavily corroded at the bottom, probably enough to warrant making a new one, it's just a few simple folds.
Windscreen wipers off (the only thing holding them on was tension from the springs pressing the blades onto the glass! No nuts on the spindles.... Wiper motor assembly out next and the first "unfamiliar" feature to me - the mounting bobbins - I don't recall them being like that on the 1978 car! Not to worry, it all came out easily enough. Screwed to the underside of the front scuttle were the remains of the two windscreen washer brackets - I may be able to resurrect them now. Unless anyone has spares or is 3D printing this part?
Clutch cable adjuster was treated to WD40 and released easily enough too!
Having got the scuttle cleared of the wipers and release cables and mechanism I could then clear out the years of crud. And amongst all that were several lumps of filler. I know the scuttle panel is going to be an issue...
And that led me to have a go at the inner wings forward of the suspension turrets with a soft wire brush, some degreaser and rags and quick wipe down. I also had a go at the front lower crossmember (I ws worrying about this as I'd noted Mark sells repair sections). I've not done much on the nearside inner around the battery tray as it's covered in primer, I assume that it's had an acid leak at some point. Photo below, all came up beautifully and nothing to give any cause for concern here.
Another few days and I'll be at the point it really needs to be in the garage to strip out the glass!
Sadly the parts wanted list has grown again...
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I'm now contemplating the next tasks that can be accomplished on the driveway, all weather dependant! I think I can manage the following:
1. Undo the 6 inner CV joint bolts each side, if I can remove the outer nuts first, and remove the driveshafts.
2. Drain down the brake fluids and remove the callipers, master cylinder and reservoir.
3. Remove the gear linkages that I disconnected today.
4. Remove the instruments, steering wheel, column shroud and stalks.
5. Drop the steering/pedal boxes onto the floorpan.
6. Remove the dashboard and heater box. (this is where I'm going to have to start really documenting stuff with the camera).
7. Remove the door cards and furniture.
8. Remove the wiring loom.
9. Drain and drop the fuel tank and then vent it for 20 minutes with the Alfa before storing it somewhere safe!
I'm not sure about removing the headless engine on the drive. But it may come to that if we get a guaranteed dry day and I can shift the bonnet hinge pins! Suspension and engine subframe, glass, headliner and sunroof will have to wait until it's under cover as will fuel lines and brake pipes.
Guy
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Hi Guy
A few points.
On the bonnet undo the bolts, I found the pins a pain, though the bolts can be. I normally remove the ones attached to the crossmember.
I have a spare bar for the seat
The bobbins are standard from Series 1 for the wiper motor mounts.
Peter
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Hi Peter, thanks for the info on the bobbins and the spare bar! Much appreciated!
The reason I go for the pins is so I can remove/replace the bonnet on my own. I used to push them out with a thinner pin (AKA a cut down nail), close the bonnet, remove the nails and lift the bonnet off. If the pins couldn't be moved in situ then it was a case of undoing the hinges from the slam panel and bonnet and dealing with them on the bench.
I'll find out what works in the coming days but always appreciate any input from anyone with experience! Mine is mainly with the later dogleg hinge that you could get at more easily than the earlier flat type (that I have now!)
Guy
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Hi Guy
I tried to remove the pins on the IE Coupe with zero success and one of the bolts needed a welded on nut to remove it.
As you say it is much simpler if you can remove the pins, I managed to remove the bonnet on my own using tne bolts, but it is a scary process.
Peter
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This is going to need careful thinking! The pins are both stuck tight in the centre part of the hinge, attached to the bonnet. The screws in the body half of the hinges show damage from removal attempts. I haven't swung an impact driver at them yet and will carry on soaking the hinges in WD40 and try to get some PlusGas on them over the weekend. Or just leave things until it's under cover! I can see welding nuts to the screw heads to remove them (once it's under cover as I wouldn't be able to close the bonnet until they're out!) and replacing with stainless countersunk Allen bolts later on. Welding a nut to the hinge pin may also be a good plan. if I had a welder...
Guy
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Hi Guy
Me neither, but the car was at the body guy’s who does have one.
Grope you have good luck with soaking the pins
Peter
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Hi Guy
I did get mashed bonnet screws out with a combination of air die grinder and a decent MIG Welder (RTech Inverter). You die grind the center of the bolt head with a carbide bit to create a recess for the weld to get more grip. Then it is high AMP mid wire speed to attach 10mm nuts. My first attempt did not have the welder settings right and the nut came off before the bolt cam out. A change of settings later and success.
A Classic car body shop will be used to doing this sort of stuff if MIG and Compressor ownership is beyond your personal desire to own expensive tools.
Eric
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I'd love to be able to weld Peter but sadly that's probably going to be beyond me! Nightschool.... ooh there's a thought! I'll get them off somehow even if I have to design a tool to push them out - that should be easy enough!
Today was a first in Beta ownership for me. I managed to remove a hub nut without recourse to an ever increase sized drill bit. It did involve some surgery with a grinder to a 36mm socket to get it to fit inside the hub and securely over the nut and then all my weight on a breaker bar with a further tool (designed for this job but with a 5*98 PCD) to take the force generated! The 6 inner bolts were fairly straight forward after that and the nearside shaft now sits on the bench awaiting further disassembly, cleaning (I might have some use for that stale petrol after all), a coat of paint and re-assembly with new boots and grease if the bearing runs and bearings are good. One shaft at a time, carefully labelled so it eventually goes back on the right side in case there are any stress twists in it. The boots are all the original ones from Lancia judging by the securing bands.
Guy
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Hi Guy
You normally take the disk off before undoing the nut.
Having suffered before with these nuts, I was pleasantly surprised after buying a high torque impact wrench (Dewalt 899) they came off without too much trying. Having now just taken an engine to pieces it also was child’s play with it having previously had a nightmare trying to get the bolt off the shaft which activates the mechanical fuel pump and having to wedge the flywheel before you can undo the crank nut, not necessary with the impact.
Peter
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Thanks Peter, I considered removing the disc and calliper but wanted to leave them in situ until the car is in the garage, plus the shoulder on the disc gave me a leverage point for the bolt on tool, grinding down the socket a little was the alternative method I chose. It worked so no need to remove the disc on this side. The shaft I removed yesterday was torn down to it's constituent components today and the worst of the crud removed. There is a little play in the outer CV joint, I'll strip it down for inspection next week to check the racers for wear and if they're undamaged I'll try a rebuild with new grease and boots and see if it's okay. I didn't check the inner one for play but will do. Last step will be to wire brush the shaft and give it a coat of paint before it goes into the done box! Then onto the second one.
I also have a design for a tool to remove the bonnet hinge pins! If it works it's not something I think i'll need again so it can be passed around others in need. Does the forum have a repository for special tools?
Guy
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Hi Guy
No organised tool repository.
I have in the past enquired on the LMC for tool hire as they have a fair few I think for the Beta, but unless you really need it, I found the cost to be quite expensive by the time you pay for tne rental and shipping etc.
You will find that various folk have the odd special tool, eg bearing ring tool and some will lend them.
In my experience very few special tools are actually required which is useful. You can often find a work around eg for the rear anti roll bar I use a ratchet strap to compress it.
Peter
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Minor progress in the last few days. The tool I made for the bonnet pin removal wasn't strong enough and bent. A small modification next week may yield results but in the meantime the pins are getting sprayed with PlusGas (or Halfrauds equivalent) to loosen them. Perhaps.
Disassembly continues with a few more minor pieces removed and bagged. So far a few have been cleaned/polished and put away for the rebuild but this week saw the first part overhauled properly. The nearside driveshaft has been removed, disassembled, shaft cleaned, degreased and painted. The inner CV joint broken into it's 9 component parts, examined and appears healthy so it's been reassembled ready for grease. The outer CV joint was showing signs of wear and play but a good replacement has been dug out of 30 years of Stratos spares and assembled onto the shaft with a new boot and tie straps. I've placed my first order with Mark which includes a pair of inner boots and when they arrive that shaft will be boxed up and put away until it's needed again. Next week should see the same process with the other shaft. They'll go back on the side that they came off, I'll be able to tell by the direction I've put the straps on, exposed end trailing the direction of rotation.
The cover for the fuel pipes in the boot was also stripped of paint and rust, the surface treated with rust converter, primed and top coated again. Hopefully we'll get some nice days next week so spend a few hours tinkering!
Guy
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eBay trawling this week - an "unidentified" water pump looked like a Beta one to me so a punt at £15 could be a worthwhile gamble. Hopefully there's no difference across engine capacities?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/132930597736 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/132930597736)
Guy
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Hi Guy
I think the VX or a n other had larger impeller or higher capacity, but standard one for your carb 2l should be fine.
Peter
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VX and Monte have deeper impellor pumps
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Thanks for the information on pumps, it makes perfect sense that the Montecarlo would have a stronger pump, there's more fluid to me moved further. I wonder if there was real need on the VX or if they used surplus Montecarlo stocks up?
Looks like the one on the way will be suitable, I'm sure the gaskets I need for it will come in a full gasket set in due course.
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Another morning and the first snapped bolt. Clutch tripod front bolt let go. Guess the gearbox is coming out with it attached. Second driveshaft is now out ready to be cleaned and reassembled and put away pending it’s return! Gear lever and tunnel out, clutch cable out plus a few odds and ends. All callipers undone and hanging loose. At least the car rolls easily now.
And a horror story - this is why you shouldn’t put speakers in the door panels. The card is completely rotted out, the bottom six inches and more are just gone. 😢😢😢😢
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On the Door card somewhere on FB there is a guy in Italy doing a remanufacture service. The pattern is a mirror image so if the passenger side is OK you can copy that. I thought I was being clever changing to plywood but it made using the original pressed in top rail fixings impossible. So make them in hardboard and varnish the door side. BTW the damage is as likely because the door water membrane was not complete or stupidly fitted. This is usually a jobbing garage doing an electric window repair that is completely un familiar with Betas.
Good luck
Eric
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Thanks for the tip Eric - I may be able to use the drivers door one as a pattern as that has survived marginally better - despite having no plastic membranes to guide the water back into the door. All that remained were the plastic frames at the top of the door where the curtains should be. But at least I think I have a full set of those so it's not rocket science to remake them in suitable heavy duty plastic. Onwards!
Guy
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Hi Guy
Not sure the speaker is at fault there. That membrane should be attached to the door, not the card and amusing to see the hole cut for the speaker, obviously the person doing it had no idea…….
I remade mine out of the black plastic used for flooring, nice and heavy duty and importantly will not disintegrate.
Peter
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Peter, I'm definitely not blaming the speaker.. It'll never have anything to say again. ;D ;D.
Definitely the muppet that installed it and saw the need to cut a hole in the sheeting and also "reinstall" the remains of the cover upside down, stuck to the door card. When you say flooring plastic are you talking about remaking the waterproofing curtains or the door cards themselves? If it's the door cards that sounds like a great idea (and clues to source material would be appreciated! I was planning on using some damp proof course material to replace the curtains. I have a roll of it lying around....
Guy
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Hi Guy
No, sadly just the protective sheeting, it is called damp proof membrane or Visqueen.
Peter
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Not getting into the garage today... Well, maybe after lunch!
Parcel delivery from Mark with the first order of sundry bits, nothing significant (except the inner CV joint boots). I'm really happy with the speed the order was turned around in and will be making (lots) more purchases in the coming months. I may even want to drop in one day! I wonder if there is an open day in the offing this year?
Back to door cards. I've done a little bit of research and come up with a potential option, a product called Stokbord that is made of recycled plastic and is available in 3mm thickness in sheets 2440x1220 and is (apparently) easily cut or routed. I suspect that the trim could be Sikaflexed to it for a permanent solution. £60 a sheet but the nearest stockist is in Driffield, 112 miles away which will add to the cost. I think one sheet could produce four door cards and two rear side panels. It may even be worthwhile making a plywood jig to produce them? I can't be the only one needing them!
https://www.centriforce.com/product/stokbord-sheet/ (https://www.centriforce.com/product/stokbord-sheet/)
Guy
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Hi Guy
Remember I have a couple of Coupe doors and cannot remember about the state of the door cards, but will be visiting site this Friday so can check.
Peter
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Thanks Peter, would Friday be a good day to meet you there? I'm tied up the week after with Race Retro from Thursday to Sunday evening. But yes, please check on the state of the door cards (and maybe the drivers door - I found corrosion on it top and bottom yesterday when that door card came off).
Guy
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Hi Guy
You should be OK to Staple to that like the original and bash the top rail stakes into it which is hard to do with plywood. Air staplers are plentiful and so are electric ones if you have no compressor. If you use staples and contact adhesive you do not get the bleed through risk of Sikaflex / no more nails.
Eric
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Hi Guy
I will be with Nigel on Friday and not sure yet how it is going to play out, so suggest not. Also you had other parts on your list which I will not have time to look out before then.
From my point of view, waiting a couple of weeks is not an issue.
Peter
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Evening Guy,
Your comment about someone else needing door panels. I’m in the same position and will have to do something. I haven’t decided what’s the best way to go yet, but I’ve got a while to dither before the interior is priority.
Cheers
Ian
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Hi Ian, I've been contemplating this today whilst stripping, cleaning, rust treating and painting the second driveshaft and outer CV joint ready for reassembly on Friday....
I'll contact the makers and see if they have a distributor who can cut a couple of sheets into 48cm panels and post them to me as its a 5 hour round trip to the nearest stockist!
Once that's done I think it'll be fairly easy to cut two thicker pieces of plywood to pattern to make a sandwich type jig that, once set up, will take minutes to rout out a plastic panel. I may need to think about the fixing pins for the vertical sides to use a more easily available clip though? Plus there are a lot of holes in the panel that don't appear to be applicable to my car. I'm not sure all would need cutting? Just the alternative one for manual winders? If I do proceed with the project I may need to canvas opinion as to which holes are actually needed!
Watch this space as they say....
Guy
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Hi Guy
Mine were made by a furniture maker talked into it by my body shop. There are round jig holes in those backing panels I think intended to hold material to be cut to the template. Coupe and Spyders have very different rear cards and S1 doors have different fixing holes. Over the years many S1 doors have been used as replacements for S2 damaged items. I got a NOS S1 Coupe door from Italy and converted it to a Spyder Door. I also had to drill extra holes for the VX door cards.
Eric
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A little more progress this week. Spent a few hours on the radiator fan shroud, wire brushed the little paint that was left off it, treated the surface to a coat of rust converter, primer and satin black paint. I put it away before I took a picture sorry!
And then noticed Mark had one powder coated for £20. If I’d seen that earlier I might not have bothered! The fan works but needs an overhaul and clean which I’ll get to next week.
I also picked up a sheet of 3mm fencing plastic. It was rolled up to fit into the Alfa and it retained some of that shape. It’s been cut down into 5 sections 48cm by 122cm and flattened again. Whilst it does cut with a Stanley knife it’s hard going which is encouraging! I need to get some plywood to make a guide pattern/clamp for the sheets to have a go at making a new set of inner cards but it looks very promising. It’ll be a month or so before I can revisit this little project. Watch this space!
Guy
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Unfortunately the Lancia Delta fuel cap, despite looking identical to the Beta in shape and mechanism, is slightly smaller than the Beta flap. Still on the lookout for a decent one!
Guy
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Today was a major day with a very fruitful trip to Derby and back with the Alfa loaded to the gunnels! And a lot of parts crossed off the needed list as well as some i didn't know I needed.
Neil has had a VX Coupe for sale on eBay and currently has a VX drivetrain sat on a subframe for sale but it's missing the carburettor, and inlet tract to the face of the supercharger which is also missing it's driven cog. Those parts may be in a box somewhere in his garage but I didn't look too hard at them.
I did however come away with a full boot carpet set, a pair of rear lights, a single headlamp assembly and headlamp trim. A boot lock and key (!) that may or may not be the right type. I think I've got a full set of usable door and window seals plus the boot seal and the correct one for the scuttle too. A pair of side repeaters with a chrome base and gaskets with unbroken studs. A VX gearknob and a VX horn push. Then there was a NOS pair of door cards, one in VX trim, two used rear side trims in slightly faded VX trim plus enough material to retrim them to match the retrimmed VX Recaros and rear seats I also bought. So that's my interior pretty much sorted out now. It's going to look spectacular!
Guy
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Back from a week's skiing in Austria (in one piece) but not much accomplished this week! I had hoped to remove the handbrake cable but the plan didn't work... The end ferrules are well and truly seized in the callipers. I'll be waiting until it's in the garage as I want to use the hydraulics to start the pistons moving before I take the brakes apart. That should then let me remove the cable from the rear callipers on the bench.
Fuel filler flap is now sorted (pending the arrival of a NOS eBay purchase from Cyprus). I have a Delta one that has the same mechanism but is smaller and may try modifying that with a new cover but no lock hole for a smoother finish. I can either fit a lockable cap to it or an electric solenoid release mechanism and emergency pull cable from an Alfa 164. Wish I'd kept those bits from the last 164 I killed....
This time next week the shell should be safely installed in the garage!
Guy
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Can anyone identify this lock? Doesn’t appear to fit my 1979/81 Coupe! If you’ve got a photo of the correct one I’d appreciate it!
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Lancia Beta Saloon I believe ??? (Not Spyder,Coupe or HPE)
Also a few being advertised on EBay at the moment as Lancia Prisma boot locks ?
Raised a thread on this before in the body section under "Spyder Boot Lock"
Sorry don't know how to add that link
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Hi Guy
The important thing is you can usually swap the rear section to Coupe Spider etc. This means you re-use the buts from the old lock to end up with key matched new locks. There is a circlip holding the rear bit of metal on and 2 compress to release plastic pegs holding the rear plastic bit.
Enjoy
Eric
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I don't have a photo but the metal part of the Coupe lock is more like a finger. Even when they fit they are difficult. After changing my lid in 2015 I've never got the lock to work consistently......
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Thanks everyone, the bloke I got it from had another NOS one the same and a slightly different one that may be Coupe. After some trawling of the net I now know what to look for, either as a direct replacement or to cannibalise for this lock. Had it been HPE i would have known it despite the passage of 25 years plus!
Cheers!
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Big day today. Huge step forward. Stratos2 left for Newcastle and Beta7 is in the garage where teardown can continue. In the dry. After a shelf tidy. Although there is a lot of storage space in the shell….
NEC day out tomorrow when I really want to be in the garage….
Guy
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Anyone ever seen a replacement windscreen made by this company?
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And the NOS filler flap arrived today. In comparison to the Delta one you can see there’s a difference in shape, not massive but mainly in the curvature on the corners. I may use the Delta one to make an alternative flap with a tighter panel gap and no lock hole and make an electric release mechanism for it.
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Empty windscreen aperture this afternoon after a few hours careful working with a Stanley knife…. A Draper tool I bought yesterday at the NEC wasn’t needed. It would have broken the screen which is out in one piece. I’ll put it on the shelf for emergency use as there’s a little delaminating in the top left corner.
The screen surround is going to need some metal letting in. Probably a scuttle panel, maybe most if the perimeter of the screen. We’ll know once it’s been stripped fully.
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And at close of play today all the glass remaining is the rear screen which has been relieved of it’s stainless steel trim. A few hours cutting with a Stanley knife later this week should see it out. It’s the original rear screen, evidenced by the copper heating/curing wire still being in place.
Guy
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That screen aperture doesn't look bad in the scheme of things Guy. The smallish hole in the bottom right hand corner often develops into a large hole in the scuttle panel itself.....
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There's a lot of filler around the screen Neil, there are multiple holes and a few splits along the bottom and up the sides. There is also corrosion above the screen. It looks like it's been tackled previously with red oxide paint and crossed fingers. I'm not overly concerned by it, there's good steel nearby and repair panels available. I'll find out how bad it is in due course! At the end of the day it's a 40 year old Beta, when was the last time one of these cars (in the UK) didn't need a little attention to the metal!
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Hi Guy
Depending on your timing, there may be some sections of the HPE screen surround left which you could use, but will be a little while until my guy gets started on it.
Peter
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That's very kind Peter - if there's anything left of it it may be easier to take the whole surround and use it for patch repairs where needed - assuming it's in a better state than what I have!
Guy
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Hi Guy
As with most surrounds there are bad areas on both the HPE and Coupe, but luckily not the same spot. I would think there would be some decent sections left which you can use for repairs.
Peter
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Apologies for my misunderstanding Peter - the early HPE take precedence and anything left over is appreciated!
Cheers
Guy
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20 minutes to remove the rear screen in one piece - that was easier than I thought it would be. Just the plastic trim on the inside to get off safely now and then I can move onto the next step, whatever that might be!
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Not much progress this last week, dental procedures and an opticians visit plus the usual household jobs have got in the way.
Anyhoo - the car is on axle stands so I could drop the callipers off the axles, fit some wooden blocks and pump the brake pedal to push to pistons out, all moved out easily enough so can be stripped and rebuilt with new seals. The shell now and devoid of it's rear callipers, handbrake cable, handbrake lever and lower cover, all came off without any seized fixings. The front ones will probably come off tomorrow. The fluid in the system is slowly draining into suitable containers. The exhaust heat shield was less of a success with one or the three fixing bolts shearing. The remains will have to be drilled out and retapped. Not too much of an issue I hope!
Bonnet hinges... The score today is tool 1:hinges1. The offside pin came out after the application of a little heat from a paint stripper gun, releasing fluid and pressure from the tool. The nearside hinge was given the same treatment but it's still stuck. A slight redesign of the tool and some tougher threaded bar might be the next step.
I've made contact with Envirostrip in Tamworth and had quotes to strip the shell of paint/sealant/filler and e-coat it once repaired. Expensive but essential for the car to make the next 40 years. They have a 6 week lead time but I've decided not to set a date until the shell is fully stripped. There'll be plenty to do between placing an order and the shell being returned on the mechanical side of things.
The parts list has shrunk a little more after a visit to see Neil in Derby again. I now have a full set of VX Bronzo glass but the seal for the front screen was cut when removing it and is only good for storage. I'm not sure about using it now as the rubber trimmed screens don't look as good as the standard bonded ones. So I may still be looking for 2 clear glass pieces for the passenger door with mirror holes.
I also have a trip on Saturday to meet up with a LMC friend I almost bought a Y10 from, he's got some parts he's donating to the cause and anything I don't need will be made available to fellow Beta owners or dropped off with Mark who can decide to save/scrap as he sees fit!
Guy
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I managed to get half a day in the garage today.
All four brake callipers detached and fluid drained from the system. A little ended up on the garage floor but easily cleaned up.
Then the four calliper carriers came off, except for one bolt that seems to be fouling a rear transverse arm. I'll get that later.
Had another go at the bonnet, moved the car to the front of the garage so I could lean the bonnet against the wall safely. That allowed me to get the impact driver square on. Two bolts came off cleanly but the third one required a few cycles of heat, release fluid and scraping and not a little violence before it submitted. And then the bonnet was off!
Thirty minutes later....
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Amazing progress Guy, just notched up 700 miles driving locally in the Hawk, now time to drive the Beta again! I think your hard work will pay off sooner rather than later at this rate! Keep up the good work :)
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Great mileage in early days Tim! If you're out in the Hawk you have a destination here where the kettle is always hot and Jacob can give me some pointers!
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A long day today, on the road at 6.30 and home at 3.00 with a van full of bits and pieces. Some duplicates now and a few more missing pieces sourced. I now no longer need the engine/exhaust clamp or the cam belt tensioner spring and special bolt! The haul also included two sets of front stub axles, four driveshafts with CV joints and a pair of rear stub axles with the anti roll bar etc etc. A lot of the stuff is quite corroded but should come back to life after shot blasting and powder coating. There are some brake callipers and carriers if anyone wants a spare set? Some gold for me in the plastic top for the jack and some bracketry I'm not 100% sure about - probably the mounts for the jack I think. I got a pair of silver door handles, a boot lock and a very rusty petrol flap with a lock. Missing is the glovebox lock that might yield a key number on the back but that may be in Kev's loft and he's going to dig that out sometime. There was also a plug in rechargeable torch (bound to be dead) and a couple of sets of airhorns. Countless bits of rubber bungs and plastic clips but all the X variety (so far) are the large type for side trims, not the ones for the rear stainless trim. oooh - and a 99% straight front bumper with excellent rubber. It's all be put away in the garage but a gearbox will have to go live in the shed for a while.
Body panels, there's a pair of front wings, a front valance and a pair of rear wings. Nothing pristine and the rear ones may only yield cuts for repairing other panels. One front wing is fairly heavily corroded and the other shows tears to the top front in the steel. That one may repair okay or provide me with a bottom offset to repair mine if it is a lacey as I suspect! The valance is heavily dented. I'll post pictures of these items tomorrow or Monday in case anyone wants to give them a home. I'm going to try to get them under cover but I'm just about out of space now!
There's an offside HPE mirror with a broken corner too, no good to me!
I haven't put much in the scrap pile yet - just brake discs, rear top mounts and springs plus a steering column upper that's not got a key and has a lot of rust on the shafts.
If anyone needs anything please shout!
Guy
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Hi Guy
Not a trivial trip the Kevin from your place. From looking at the photos I would be interested in a pair of the rubber boots which attach to the inner wings and go over the rack arms if you have spares?
Peter
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There are three of them Peter, I haven't checked but with my luck that means I'll have three left ones.... Of course you can have a pair, it's not something I was looking for on my car.
Guy
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Hi Guy
Most likely the same side. I mainly need one side, will double check which one is all mangled
Thanks
Peter
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Hi
The one I need is below. It has a flap to the lower right which is missing on this one and has a small protrusion inboard of the flap.
Peter
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Looks like I have two right and one left spare Peter. You’re welcome to a pair!
Guy
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Hi Guy
Thanks, that looks a whole lot better than the two mangled ones I have!
Peter
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I’ve been digging through the smaller stuff I collected from Kev, bits I couldn’t look at as I put them away. Lots of nuts, bolts, washers and seat fixings plus plastic fittings. There was only one piece of trim that goes under the sill covers and, miraculously, it was the side I was missing! Another small part ticked off the list!
I’ll add a new thread on the spares area for bits I collected but don’t need next.
Guy
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Hi Guy.
You haven't got a spare silver escutcheon which fits on the door card around the lock button on the inside have you by any chance?
Thanks
C
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Probably Clifford! Let me check later today and get back to you!
Guy
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There were two different types, the pre facelift have bright silver finish, the facelift have a satin finish.
You will find that a lot have one or more fingers missing due to difficulty removing/installing
Peter
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Clifford, I've got two spare ones with the retaining clip, both are the later satin finish. Unfortunately they are both 3 legged ones. You're welcome to them if it helps? Drop me a PM with your address and I'll pop them in the post to you.
Guy
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That's excellent Guy. Thank you. I will send you a pm.
C
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Well that’s the fuel tank out without any stripped fixings. It’s been drained of 20 litres of fuel. The first 10 came out looking pretty clean, the last 10 not so much. A mixture of water and crud. Then an hour being vented with diesel fumes from the 159. The outside of the tank looks okay but the inside….. might need to get a camera in there to see what it’s like. Probably going to be usable once treated by a specialist. Does anyone have one to recommend?
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And here’s the cause of the engine failure that led to a teardown by the last owner. There’s one bent valve at least. One day soon I’ll get the block onto a stand and see if it’s seized….
Do you think I could reuse the belt if I stapled the teeth back down and ran it in the other direction?? 🤣🤣🤣🤣
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Guy,
Your repair plan, incredible , but use stainless clips and some silicon for good measure.
Running it backwards will give you amazing performance with 5 reverse gears, so
make sure your mirrors reflect properly.
Hope this helps.
I spent a week attempting to clean my tank. Shaking it with nuts and bolts inside
brought out so much rust I gave up. I figured the base would be rather thin.
Nigel
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Thanks for the thoughts Nigel - the plan wasn't to run the engine backwards, just to take the belt on so that it runs in the other direction to it's original installation. I think Sikaflex would be a better option than silicon......
I'm looking at a POR15 solution to seal the inside of the tank, there's a rust treatment first followed by the sealant but it's a one time attempt to fix I think. So long as it's reasonably solid metal without any holes I think it ought to work. Provided the sealant, once cured, doesn't block the inlet and outlet pipes.
Got the dash out this afternoon, the only fixing I forgot about was the bolt under the dash in the passenger footwell. Soon fixed.
And the bulkhead is rock solid too. Happy days! Heater box next and then the wiring loom next I think.
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A lovely sunny day today when I could push the car onto the driveway. The wiring loom is out and labelled up. Mostly… just the two wires in each door for the windows to come out when I strip them down next week.
Also got the pedal box out. And the brake servo. And the cross bulkhead linkages. The shaped (soggy) soundproofing came out in one piece too and may well go back in once dried out.
Rust. Found a patch on the offside inner arch including a pinhole. Looks like it’ll clean up and can be welded up easily enough.
Steering and suspension, headlining and sunroof, fuel and brake lines and door furniture to go. Plus all the remaining plastic fixing blocks to trace and remove. Getting there!
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ooh - another wanted - has anyone got a heater box top flap - the plastic one spare? Mine appears to have been worn through a little!
Guy
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That all looks pretty damn good. . . aren't these cars meant to have rusted away? . . . still waiting for mine to do that ;D
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Come up and see it sometime soon Tim!
The plan to use dry ice and isopropyl alcohol to remove the bitumen floor covering didn't work out. I started to use a scraper tool as my curiosity got the better of me. So far the front footwells are done and half the rears. There are a few other pads to remove underneath the rear seats, on the rear suspension towers and front wheel arches.
So far it's looking not too bad. There is one patch where it's been plated over a split in the floorpan next to the sill. My guess is some muppet jacked the car there and damaged it enough to allow the rot to start. I'm struggling a little for time at the moment - the removal of the pads needs to be done outside the garage on dry days. The shelves appear to be full of parts and trim such that I'm now storing things inside the car itself. Hey ho.
Photos to follow next week if it stays dry and I finish building the bike shed and changing the stereo on the Panda!
Guy
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Guy
I did the POR 15 system on mine so its do-able. Tips- grease or silicone the sender mounting ring and studs to make sure it still 'floats' and you can get the nuts on. (I didn't make a great job of that bit)
Do - wear gloves.
Don't - wear anything you might want to wear again.
Have fun
Mark
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Thanks Mark - I need to look at the tank again once the shell is away. For the time being it's no longer a bomb waiting to go off! i suspect POR15 will be the way to go with it. I have a new sender unit on the way for the car so the old gasket can be sacrificed with a temporary cover. My concern is not blocking up the return and breather pipes..... I may need to ask the POR15 peeps about that nearer the time! There must be something that can be done to stop this.
I have a tarpaulin (actually half a hang glider wing) and a big sheet of plastic ready for the day!
Guy
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It’s a 44 year old Lancia Beta. I kept telling myself that this last week or so as the pads came off the floorpan, boot floor and suspension turrets. There’s going to be corrosion I kept telling myself. We’ll at least I’m not disappointed, there is. The boot floor and rear seat area came up as perfect. Well pleased! The four footwells are surface corroded but sound but for a patch that’ll need surgery on the left front outer. I don’t think that’s a huge issue. Front inner arches and front bulkhead aren’t perforated anywhere but will need taking back to solid surfaces to make sure. Rear turrets. There’s rust in the lower seams where they join the boot floor and a patch on either side next to the side bracketry and another lower down on the offside inner side about 6 inches up. All looks repairable for now. Overall I’m chuffed to bits with the floorpan!
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Task for the rest of this week (if I can get to it) are removal of the plastic inner trim around the rear window aperture which will allow me to get the headlining and sunroof out for a better look at the state of the tinwork around the perimeter of the roof. Maybe a day or so for removing various plastic trims/plugs etc - especially the under car ones for fuel and brake lines. I suspect the heads I can see poking into the cabin have a centre pin that pushes out which will allow them to be washed and re-used? And with them out the fuel and brake lines can come out after I've made some notes (or taken pictures) for which pipe goes where. Steering, suspension, door furniture and subframes plus arch liners and it'll be time to remove the wings and front valence to see what it's like under there.
Then book it in to be taken away for paint stripping prior to tinwork. Six week wait I think for the strippers! By then I may have more components to refurb! And hopefully some bits to work with following the open day at Marks!
Guy
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Hi Guy
You should be pleased with the floor pan.
As to the plastic clips, yes, they have a centre pin which you can knock out.
Peter
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Nice day today so got to spend it on the driveway whilst keeping an eye on contractors digging up our garden, lifting flags and block paving to install a new gas supply…. Long story 😳
So I got the opportunity to look at the headliner. After a couple of hours work the A,B and C pillar trims were carefully removed without damaging them. The headlining was detached along the sides which allowed me to see how it’s secured front and back and around the sunroof. It’s out now.
Haynes manual for the sunroof itself. No mention. Luckily there’s one on here (thanks Matt) so I’ll know what to expect if I tackle it tomorrow. Oddly it’s not something I’ve removed before. Sadly there is some corrosion up there that will need dealing with one way or the other.
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Great work! Keep templates of the foam but replace with closed cell. Those sun roof drain hoses get blocked leading to trashed head linings and drips so it will be interesting to hear if your have crud in them.
I wish I was getting mine done. I am looking at a day packing away parts from the lock up I am gradually emptying then the focus is on making the Montecarlo fit to drive to Classic Le Mans at the end of June.
Eric
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Thanks for the tip Eric, the main foam pad came off in one piece but left more bitumen on the roof to scrape off - thought I'd got it all. I'm sure the tubes will be blocked with crud - if Alfa 159 experience is anything to go by. Having said that the Lancia tube bores are significantly larger but I've yet to check where the pipes drain out from. There is a small chance they'l be free.
Do the rears drain into the side vent area or continue down into the boot? I haven't found the top end of the rear tubes yet, I assume there are some and they'll appear when the sunroof is out.
Guy
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Sunroof. None of the offside tab screws want to play yet. Sprayed a little release fluid on them but contemplating violence with a drill.
Offside wing off plus arch liner. Top rail is buggered. Bugger. I’m sure it’s saveable but on a positive note tha bottom of the A post is rock solid with only a little bit missing from the bottom of the infill panel.
Near side will be worse. There’s filler bridging the gap between the scuttle and wing. Not a good sign.
Guy
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Hi Guy,
Sunroof drain pipes confuse me. Both my late coupe and HPE sunroof rear drain pipes extend down into the boot past the rear of the wheel arch and exit through a grommet onto the road.
But the fronts are confusing. Both cars run the front drain pipes down the A-pillar, down inside the door pillar (they are visible behind the speaker panel) and then stop ‘INSIDE’ the box section!!! There is no drain hole exit onto the road.
How can this be correct? But both my late cars are the same.
I’m planning to drill a hole in the floor of the box section and replace the pipes with new longer pipes that will exit under the car.
Has anyone else got this problem?
Cheers
Ian
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Near side might actually be better. Marginally.
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Hi Ian, I still haven't goat the sunroof out to find the top end of the pipes but the bottom ends are behind the rear wheels and open. I haven't looked too hard yet for the bottom ends of the front drains but I can see them in the speaker holes running into the bottom of the A post. Luckily my car appears to have been heavily rustproofed and I hope the sills are pretty sound, obviously not going to find out until it's all fully stripped but wherever they terminate on my car they don't appear to have caused any issues. If I keep the sunroof I think, like you, I'll terminal these drains outside the car and will find a suitable spot in due course!
Guy
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This morning's Beta activities just been curtailed, phone calls and footy coming up.
Front sunroof drain pipes also end inside the sill box section, I can see them through the holes in the bottom of the A post. That's going to be addressed in some way, either forward into the front inner arch area or through the floorpan/sill, sealed with a grommet.
Inner arch liners both off now, only one screw put up a fight but as the head pokes into the cabin a light tap from a hammer loosened it's grip. Steering boot lower screws all out as are the wing infiltrated panels. Both need a minor repair at the bottom but there's enough material and rubber left as a tell tale to identify and make the missing sections. Rust hey, who'd have thought it! Bonnet release cables now removed as I can now see the routing is easy enough.
And the two recalcitrant screws in the sunroof tab have both yielded to penetrating fluid spray so I can carry on with that on Tuesday when I can next get time on the car, weather permitting. It really is coming down to steering rack, suspension and brake/fuel lines and clips.
The front lower valance is still attached though. I put a bumper on the car which confirms it's got slight damage and needs to be pulled out at the centre.Once aligned that can come off too. Has anyone got any pictures of the lower support tabs/brackets, mine lokk a bit too bent?
Cheers
Guy
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Tim was here today to give the Beta a once over and to let me see his completed (bar paint) Stratos! Great to see both of them!
Progress report - the last two screws for the sunroof must have been listening to threats of being drilled out and gave up the fight after a dose or two of penetrating fluid yesterday. The sunroof is now out thanks to the instructions posted my Mattnovat! I had a look for the ends of the rear drain tubes and found them near the tops of the rear turrets just inside the outer wing panels. Tubes are now off, labelled and put away for cleaning!
The second bonnet pin also decided it was time to see the light of day again. That involved removal of the hinge from the bonnet and a vice with a large rubber mallet.... Happy with that!
An hour or so spent going round removing rubber plugs/grommets and plastic screw sockets too.
Whilst Timwas here we had a look at the bottom end of the engine to see if it was actually seized. A screwdriver braced against a gearbox bell housing bolt could be used as a lever against the ring gear on the flywheel - and it turned freely! Joy! Not that that is going to stop me stripping it down for a full rebuild in the coming months! The waterways are a tad furred up!
Guy
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Super impressed with the Coupe , this car has been really well looked after & rustproofed... before the black paint and those strange old wheels were fitted!
Lets be honest, you have to go a long way to beat standard Beta wheels.
Another one saved that will soon be one of the best, keep up the good work, it's already worth it!
The Hawk performed faultlessly on it's first trip up North, seems it's tailor made for the Snake Pass ;D
Cheers Guy, looking forward to seeing the next stage :)
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I got a key code from Kevin from the glove box lock he has stored in his loft. Took a punt with that number and ordered a key to see if it would open the locks on the door handle set I got from him a few months back. Success on the doors and the petrol flap but not the boot lock. Yet. All the locks have white overspray so I assume it’s from the same car. A bit of WD40 and time might see it come back to life yet.
Another item ticked off the list!
Locksmith was recommended on here, John Richard at 202a Pensby Road on the Wirral. 0151 342 2318 or 4074. I can vouch for the service too now!
Guy
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Guy.
Persevere with the boot lock with the key you got. I had a spare made and it was stiff on the boot at first but has loosened up.
The door locks will probably have more wear and therefore likely to take a new key more easily as mine did.
C
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Guy.
Persevere with the boot lock with the key you got. I had a spare made and it was stiff on the boot at first but has loosened up.
The door locks will probably have more wear and therefore likely to take a new key more easily as mine did.
C
The boot locks can be proper weird. Mine worked fine before it was transferred to a new boot lid and ever since, if you lock it, you never know whether it will open easily or you will have a horrendous key breaking struggle. The lock will fit in two ways, I've tried both with no success.
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Still soaking the lock in release fluid but no luck yet. I may yet resort to repinning one to match! When Tim was here last week he commented on the chassis plate. I’ve no idea what the Dymo label on it means but I think it’s been there since new…. Anyone any ideas?
Guy
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I've not seen a Dymo tape like that before Guy but I imagine it was some sort of stock control number added by Lancar or the dealer. All sorts of schemes were on the go around the time of your car to move on slow moving stock.
Your car is a February 1980 build, so probably hung around for at least a year before being sold?
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Hi Neil, how do you work out it’s a 1980 build? There’s a plate riveted to the front upper crossmember above the near side headlight that’s stamped “Cd011679” which I read as a construction date of 16th January 1979? This would have been around the time the r scandal was surfacing so cars were hanging about in stock for a while!
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I have the Dymo label too. 030B03 on my 79 coupe 1600.
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Hi Neil, how do you work out it’s a 1980 build? There’s a plate riveted to the front upper crossmember above the near side headlight that’s stamped “Cd011679” which I read as a construction date of 16th January 1979? This would have been around the time the r scandal was surfacing so cars were hanging about in stock for a while!
I have the copy build records in my DVLA role for LMC and your VIN is definitely February 80. Not seen your other plate either, so that is a puzzle……
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I have the Dymo label too. 030B03 on my 79 coupe 1600.
Anyone with a 1300 Coupe got the label? Might read 030A03? It's beginning to sound like it's factory?
Neil - I like a puzzle! It's obviously been there since new! I wonder if we'll ever solve it?
Guy
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I have the Dymo label too. 030B03 on my 79 coupe 1600.
Anyone with a 1300 Coupe got the label? Might read 030A03? It's beginning to sound like it's factory?
Neil - I like a puzzle! It's obviously been there since new! I wonder if we'll ever solve it?
Guy
My 1300 Coupe has neither the metal plate or the Dymo, though regarding the latter I think it was a dealer factory order car, built April 79 registered June 79.
Andy Collins and Alan Cooper are the ones who might know what these codes are all about.
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Boot lock…. Despite days soaked in fluids It didn’t want to play. So, on a trip to Boston for the last parts from Kevin I called in on Peter Stokes who kindly showed me how to dismantle the bugger. But up to me to put it back together again. He kindly donated some parts to help. So, after 3 days getting the Stratos replica ready for this weekends Malvern show I got back to it. Fiddly work and the only mistake was removing the key when I’d done one side to see if it still worked. Don’t do that, all the pins, buckets and springs just drop out the other side. 20 minutes later and it was all back together. And working. And the key worked in the glovebox lock I got from Kevin so now I have a full set of working locks with one key.
Must get back to the Beta next week. After the trip to see Mark! Despite what his website says the cancelled meet is on for anyone who pitches up! Please just don’t interrupt my shopping trip!
Guy
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Last jobs for this week - Kit Car Show tomorrow in Malvern this weekend.
Brake master cylinder out after noting the routing of each of the 5 pipes followed by the four pipes as far as the flex is. They’re not going back in but every union and clip came off easily. Gear linkage fully out too. Gearbox mount undone, removed and put to one side, rack unbolted but put back in place whilst it’s on its wheels. The four 22mm bolts between the subframe and body also yielded to a little gentle persuasion. That’s the front end ready to be completely stripped and put on axle stands. Before that happens I need to repeat the the exercise for the rear end but as that’s just 8 suspension tower nuts, four crossmember nuts and a further four anti roll bar nuts it ought to be a shell at the end of the week after next. I need to get the car more centralised in the garage to help with this. Then it’s just stripping the door internals and B post latch and check for the last of the grommets and clips!
Sunroof has also been fully dismantled today, I’ve updated the removal thread (from 12 years ago) with what’s necessary so I won’t repeat that here.
Alfa packed with bits to go down to Mark the weekend after next too. Looking forward to that trip and meeting some new faces that I can put names to!
Have a great weekend everyone!
Guy
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Sheared nut/bolt/screw count is now two. Rear exhaust hanger died when too much force was applied.
But on a positive note it’s now (almost) a shell. Do you like my new wheels?
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Front bumper irons need to come off but that will have to wait until I can get a template for the front valance, it’s got a slight dent in the centre that needs coaxing out and checking with a bumper on it.
Next task is to tear down the subframes for easier storage and restoration.
Then book the shell to be stripped of paint/filler and de rusted! We’ll soon know exactly what I’ve got!
Guy
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Done for the day. And this week. Off to Marks tomorrow for the Saturday gathering.
Front subframe stripped of it’s components. Most of the bolts still showing shiny cad plating! If it’s rubber it’s perished. Wishbones and subframe in good/fair condition and can be cleaned, blasted, treated and powder coated. Steering rack needs an overhaul and I need to look harder at the shocks - they’re the type with inserts which I’ll remove in due course and get the casings looked at to see if they’re reusable.
Really happy with progress today. Back to it next week I think?
Guy
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Another week gone by and a trip down to see Mark and meet a few others and look at Betas! Andy’s S3 saloon is looking amazing. I took a shopping list with me and got a lot of smaller bits and pieces. A very dead VX Coupe in the scrap yard was spotted and with Mark’s approval the windscreen rubber was cut and the glass carefully removed. Then the dashboard was freed from it’s mounting points (3 on the bulkhead, one in the passenger footwell, one either side and two above the steering column) and surgery commenced with an angle grinder. And later a bit of violence with a chisel and lump hammer. A cut across the roof in front of the sunroof, another across the bulkhead and then through the A pillars. There’s now a repair panel to be used to take any cuts to replace the rusty areas on the shell.
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Back to it today with cleaning 40 years oil and crud off the subframe, sadly only on the engine side. The gearbox side is still in excellent condition though. It’ll be going for shot blasting and powder coating soon along with wishbones, anti roll bars and the rear cross member. And anything else suitable.
As the car is now a shell I’ve made the call to the strippers who quoted a six week wait. So it’s being collected on 28th June. In two weeks! So I might have some major news on the real state of the bodywork towards the end of July! Watch this space!
Guy
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Photos duly sorted…..
It will be interesting to see how good the bodywork is, given the work you have done already, I would not expect too many surprises unless there is some well hidden stuff going on.
Peter
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I'm not stressing about it Peter - it'll be what it'll be and whatever is crumbly will be fixed properly! I don't intend having to do this again....
Photos stolen from the BetaBoyz facebook site of the aftermath of surgery... Not for the faint hearted!
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On the plus side we might have created a new Beta model - the Landaulette - should anyone wish to restore it?
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End of another week and a milestone reached. The shell and panels (including an extra door, bootlid and screen surround) are ready for collection a week on Wednesday. The front valance will need work when it comes back as there is some impact damage to it and the support struts. The pristine crossmember isn’t. It will need a patch repair to the front near side, corroded from the outside. Bugger.
All the suspension is fully dismantled, only one bolt was a struggle (lower one on the rear through the cross links) but it yielded to penetrating fluid, light sanding, bad language and some brute force. None of the shock absorbers feel worn and the chrome isn’t pitted. They might be okay. But I plan to replace them, shame not to do it at this point? Final job will be undoing the top caps and extracting the inserts. Need to make some tools for that job I think!
Weekend off. Or tidying up more like!
Guy
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Extracting the inserts? Do you have replaceable or need to cut the tops off?
Peter
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Guy, I've just spent quite a while reading this thread and had not appreciated how much of a similar situation we're in! Albeit your pace is higher than mine and yours will be rather nicer when done. My suspension and subframes are in their original functional but ugly state
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Extracting the inserts? Do you have replaceable or need to cut the tops off?
Peter
They're the insert type at both ends Peter. Front tool looks easy to make, back requires a 50mm ring spanner ideally. Plus a further investment in a tin of release fluid! I've not dismantled this type before so I'm hoping that once the lockings/caps are removed it's a simple case of anchoring the strut casing and applying a slide hammer to a nut on the top of the strut...
Guy
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Guy, I've just spent quite a while reading this thread and had not appreciated how much of a similar situation we're in! Albeit your pace is higher than mine and yours will be rather nicer when done. My suspension and subframes are in their original functional but ugly state
Thanks Chris - I found a pair of door rods today, which side did you need? I can post on Monday. I guess being retired has it's advantages? I could just do with the income to finance the restoration! anyone looking at a Beta is going to be travelling the path we've chosen, not a lot of choice really! Luckily I'm really enjoying it so far! Hopefully I'll have a painted shell back in 3 months which gives me time to sort out the mechanical side of things ready for reassembly and do the trim over Winter?
Guy
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I thought it might be rude to mention the retired aspect!
It's the left hand door I'm missing the rod for. Realise it's a tricky one to post but if it's possible I'd certainly appreciate it.
I saw in the early pages of this you had a parts needed list that had some bits on I know I've got spare. If you've got a current list let me know and see what I can reciprocate with
Edit - clarification on the rod, I'm talking about the one that goes from the lock mechanism forward to the interior pull handle, as opposed to the vertical push button one.
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Extracting the inserts? Do you have replaceable or need to cut the tops off?
Peter
They're the insert type at both ends Peter. Front tool looks easy to make, back requires a 50mm ring spanner ideally. Plus a further investment in a tin of release fluid! I've not dismantled this type before so I'm hoping that once the lockings/caps are removed it's a simple case of anchoring the strut casing and applying a slide hammer to a nut on the top of the strut...
Guy
Hi Guy
The original replaceable strut inserts had a nut with 4 slots in it and needed a tool similar to the hub bearing tool, after market ones tend to have a large nut head which it sounds like some of them you have. Interesting that they are not original unless modified as replaceable strut/inserts were only used on the early cars, probably up to around 1977?
Peter
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Hi Guy
The original replaceable strut inserts had a nut with 4 slots in it and needed a tool similar to the hub bearing tool, after market ones tend to have a large nut head which it sounds like some of them you have. Interesting that they are not original unless modified as replaceable strut/inserts were only used on the early cars, probably up to around 1977?
Peter
[/quote]
The fronts are the the ones with the 4 slots Peter, I've found some suitably heavy pipe to cut to suit, I may even be able to find a nylon insert to slide it over the rod without causing any damage, should help with alignment when a pipe wrench is applied! Rears have the 50mm castellated nut. I have a set (I think) of others from Kevin that I need to check to see what the tops look like, I wonder if the threads are the same? I think I prefer the castellated type.
Guy
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35mm O/D pipe with a 3mm wall picked up off the scrap shelf and 4 pins marked on it and the excess material cut off, not the neatest job but it'll do. Found an old nylon suspension bush with a 30mm O/D and a step drill with a 30mm ledge and used that to cut the tube to the right I/D, just deep enough to allow the use of a mallet to to tap it into place. Then a 20mm step drill to match the bush I/D to the strut O/D.
First front strut in the vice, spring pan and strut end on the surface and a pipe wrench used on the tube, mallet to shock the nut loose after tapping out a slight ding either side (presumably factory to prevent the nut coming out). What I forgot about was that it was oil filled. Well most of that ended up on the top of the workbench and some in the drawer. Bugger.
I'll get to the second one on Monday.... I may have another go at making a second tool, the prongs are a little longer than ideal.
Guy
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This week about done now. The car is ready for collection on Wednesday. The spare screen surround isn’t going on advice from the fabricator. It might dissolve too so he wants to keep it in shape for the profiles. Started work on the suspension and it’s all apart now. We’ll almost, I’ve still got three inner bearing races to remove from the two front and one rear hub carrier. I don’t have a tool to that yet but think it’s time, I don’t like grinding them off…. Shocks are fully dismantled are reusable with new inserts. Front locknuts needed the fork type tool making which worked a treat. The rears needed putting into a solidly mounted vice and an adjustable pipe wrench did the trick. All now ready for shot blasting and powder coating. Shopping list now has four bearings, two front lock rings and one rear lock ring n it! Why are they different sizes? Must be a reason!
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Hi Guy
The rear bearing inner race removal is easy if you use the two holes in the casting which allows you to put a punch into it and push the race off.
The fronts, I did cut them down and used a chisel to then split them.
Peter
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Thanks once again Peter - you're a mine of information! One of the rear inner races came off with the bearing but the other is still in situ, I'll have a look for the drift holes tomorrow, I'm sure it'll pop off easily enough. One front wheel bearing/steering arm and one rear hub cleaned up this afternoon with a wire brush on a drill. I'll treat them both to a quick coat of rust converter to kill anything that forms over the weekend and then a coat of paint or two. Probably red oxide and then a satin black rattle can, avoiding any bearing surfaces and threads. The brake dust shields are a little more fragile but the same treatment should work okay, I'll consider having them powder coated instead of painting them. Just a few dents to straighten. New bearings to press in and new lock rings and it'll be ready to go on the shelf for the rebuild.
Guy
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Wire wheels on the drill and the stub axles/hub carriers are starting to look better! Ready for a coat or two of paint as soon as the shell makes space. That’ll be tomorrow then 👍
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Impressive work on a job I have always used the Sandblaster for after masking the bearing surfaces with tank tape.
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If they are before rust treatment which they look like, very impressive, mine are not as clean as that after the wire wheel has done it’s job.
I have to say it is one very mucky job, necessary but not my most enjoyable bit of the restoration. The end result is however worth the effort.
Peter
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Photos are just after wire wheeling a front and rear with it's pair for comparison to show what I started with. All four are done now, it's not a fun job but satisfying when they all come out okay. They'll get a Ku-Rust coat to kill anything lurking followed by a coat of Nitromors Red Oxide and then Nitromors Satin Black to finish off. A few weeks in a box fully curing will be followed by new bearings being pressed, lock rings fitted and new bushes ready for reassembly. I've yet to tackle the rear brake backplates but i hope they'll come up okay. I did briefly consider consigning them to the box for shot blasting and powder coating but I think that might be a little too harsh on thin steel. If it fails in years to come it'll be a localised repair, I'm not going to destroy a new bearing and locking to get them off again!
Guy
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Hi Guy
If you treat them then I would imagine they will probably outlast both you and me….. after all they have lasted 40 years without being as well looked after.
Peter
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Very impressed with the finish on those parts. Is that achieved solely by using a wire wheel on a drill or grinder? My only concern with using the wire wheel (apart from pieces of wire flying off) is that it tends to polish the surface, which means that paint or primer doesn't adhere as well as it could. When I refurbished the uprights that Peter kindly provided I degreased them, then had them blasted, then took them to my local platers for black phosphate treatment. This is a genuine surface treatment in that it doesn't increase the dimensions of the part, but actually sinks into the surface. These are the parts that are still waiting patiently to be fitted:
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Just a wire wheel or ten on a drill. I’m comfortable with the treatment they’ll get, they’re in better condition now than when I got them.
In other news. Shell and panels were collected today.
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Hi Graham
You are probably correct, but as Guy says this technique is good enough for me, ie I can get on no do it myself and this car is costing way too much already…! The rust treatment I am using also acts as a primer so has some interaction with the metal from what I understand, though time will tell how effective it is.
I think some protection is better than none and as mentioned above, these parts will outlast me so happy with carrying on.
Peter
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Help? Amongst spares I’ve collected were the pictured brackets and…. I haven’t got a clue if they’re Beta Coupe or not! There was nothing like them removed from the shell by me but given the car was incomplete when bought they may be needed!
Top right has a clip on the back that may take a rubber strap? Maybe something to support the jack?
Guy
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Guy,
If it was me I'd get them blasted and re-plated while I was figuring out what they might be for.
Graham
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Top right might be the cover for the top of a jack?
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Thanks Neil - my jack came from 2 sources the missing top was a piece of plastic and looked nothing like this bit. Might it be a bracket to hold the jack? Don't know! I also got some Fulvia and Fiat 131 parts mixed in with the bits I've acquired so these may all be wild goose chases!
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Right, more for the Wire Wheeling Weirdoes out there (I’m going off it now)….
One rear strut top mount ready for a quick coat of rust converter and paint. The stub axles and backing plates are done boxed up now until reassembly starts.
Guy
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I hear your boredom, it seems like a never ending job, the reward is the finished painted item free of oil and dirt and you can handle it without having to wash your hands…..
Peter
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Ho hum. Wire Wheeling play stopped by dead drill. Half a front lower top mount done. Second one isn’t pretty and I may opt to replace it once I’ve had a go at it. The two rear top mounts are slowly curing after rust converter, primer and topcoats. Happy with them.
Guy
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And in the post yesterday/today were the tools from Chris (VXMan - lock ring and camshaft shim tool) to fit the lock rings front and rear. Two fronts and a rear were in stock and another front and rear arrived today. The Stratos also uses the Beta front lock ring so spares stock is replenished!
Guy
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Right, I’m not liking the condition of one of the front suspension parts. The lower half of the top mount which the spring sits on. The steel is looking very corroded and the edges are splitting/separating. It’s obviously weaker than it should be after an hour with wire brushes and a power file so I think this one needs replacing. Unless you lot think otherwise? Anyway, shout out time! Does anyone have a spare one in good condition or a lead to a new one? Or two new ones?
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A bit on the ropey side. Do not forget to take the bearing plate out of the centre.
Peter
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I've always found that cleaning up rusty parts (once they've been degreased) is normally best done by immersing said rusty part(s) in a solution of citric acid. It will convert what rust it can into a stable compound and provides an excellent base for plating. Citric acid in crystal form is readily available for cheap on ebay and I either use it in an ultrasonic cleaner to clean up bolts and small parts or in a plastic tank for larger parts.
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Thanks to Peter there’s a top mount on the way. Hero!
Head scratching today, so much to do and I didn’t fancy more drill work so I thought I’d have a go at the rubber steering rack inner arm shrouds. One down one to go. Scraped the worst of the crud off, washed with a scrubbing brush then a mixture of solvents (petrol and WD40) and some rubber treatment.
I’ll do the other one tomorrow. It’s come up quite soft after all that work and should last a while!
Guy
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Yes, the rubber items can be brought back well so long as they are not ripped. One thing is the rubber fixings, I used the plastic fir tree fixings on the Spider, but if you can find them use rubber ones, much more pliable and less chance of damaging the metalwork.
Peter
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Thanks for the tip Peter - I've got a full set of 8 of the correct rubber clips! Really pleased with the way the first one turned out. I'll do the other one tomorrow and then think about tearing down the steering rack if I can clear the table! I've got the overhaul kit from Mark.
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Another alternative fixing method is to
use plastic number plate screws and nuts which we
used to do when we couldn't get the rubber things.
A bit fiddly though!
Nigel
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Nice idea Nigel, did not think of that.
Peter
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If I were going with Nigel's suggestion I'd modify it slightly by fitting a rivnut with a suitable plastic screw. I had a look at the two cleaned up boots and noted that two of the rubber trees are down to single barbs. They ought to hold but may not be so easy to pull through. I'll have a look through the box of spares to see if I picked any odd ones on my travels...
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Steering arm inner shrouds eh.. so that explains what these mystery bits of rubber are amongst the box of bits I got back. I presume they are meant to be somewhere suitably awkward to access at the back of the engine?
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Hi Chris
You install them from the wheel wells but need te steering ball joints disconnected to fit them
Peter
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Lights.
Rear lights. Aaargh. I got a car with a mixed bag of Altissimo and Siem units and guess what, the parts aren't interchangeable! But I guess you already knew that. So, best left frame is an Altissimo but the best body is Siem and the best backing is Altissimo. There's a decent right Altissimo body with a good frame but the lenses are badly scratched. One of the frames uses fixing screws and comes apart fairly easily (Altissimo) and the other has proper bolts and they are a fine thread that seems reluctant to undo. So, I think I'm going to go with the best pair of Altissimo frames and bases with a little repair work where needed for the fixing studs. I should be able to cobble a pair together but may have to source a couple of clean, unscratched/uncracked lenses.
Front lights. AAAAARGH. Car came with the Carello lights with the nice housings/covers. One further, careful inspection they're crap. No, not that good. And one headlight is for a LHD car. I seem to have a variety of spares so I think I'll end up with a set of Siem lights on the front. I've got a set of fair condition inners (12300) and one good outer and one outer with corrosion in the reflector (12270) that will probably do for now. There's one brand new 12300 inner light in my spares (and that's easily available new as it's an Alfa Sud part). If anyone has a source for the outer RHD Siem headlights can you point me in that direction please?
Trim rings - the Siem ones look like they're stainless steel but the Carello ones are chromed steel. I'm not sure I could put together a good set of those which is a shame as the backing plates require little/no work bar cleaning.
The boxes of spares/refurbed parts continues to grow and extra spares are now being consigned to the garden shed for future cleaning/refurb. That's making space on the shelves for more stuff! The list grows!
And, on other news, the date for the return of the bare steel shell is set - Thursday 20th July, we'll know what we're fixing then!
Guy
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Lights.
Rear lights. Aaargh. I got a car with a mixed bag of Altissimo and Siem units and guess what, the parts aren't interchangeable! But I guess you already knew that. So, best left frame is an Altissimo but the best body is Siem and the best backing is Altissimo. There's a decent right Altissimo body with a good frame but the lenses are badly scratched. One of the frames uses fixing screws and comes apart fairly easily (Altissimo) and the other has proper bolts and they are a fine thread that seems reluctant to undo. So, I think I'm going to go with the best pair of Altissimo frames and bases with a little repair work where needed for the fixing studs. I should be able to cobble a pair together but may have to source a couple of clean, unscratched/uncracked lenses.
To answer your question on the thread on making a mix and match 'am i going to be the next poor sod to discover this', it looks like the answer is yes :)
http://www.lanciabeta.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=872.msg35286#msg35286 (http://www.lanciabeta.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=872.msg35286#msg35286)
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Hi
When I get back from France in August, will have a look on the Coupe to see if any are useable.
Peter
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Thanks Peter, an afternoon tinkering I have managed to clean overspray and crud off a full set of Siem lenses, and some polishing has resulted is a set great condition. I also have two Siem frames in very very usable condition (one has a very slight dent) and all screw holes free.
There are two Siem bodies too, well four. Two had heavily corroded fixing bolts button splits so I decided to remove all the studs with a drill. The other pair have damage to the plastic in a few places so are consigned to the spares box. The circuit boards/backing plates will probably need a new fixing method as I don't think I've got a pair with clips. I'm thinking a simple rubber strap will sort that out. I'll deal with the electrical connections when I get to the wiring!
The Altissimo lights are all not consigned to the emergency spares and/or give away to anyone who needs them pile.
The quality of the Siem lights seems much better than the Altissimo ones, the frames especially appear to corrode and bubble much more easily!
Final tasks for the rear lights will be a thorough degrease, clean and some new silver paint on the reflectors, a pair of BAY15D bulb holder for the reversing lights to fit a set of LED red/white bulbs so I have brighter reversing lights and twin foglights with nothing ugly below the bumper! And a set of stainless steel studs. Then box until re-assembly starts.
Guy
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A lot of work has gone into the rear lights over the last week or so. And is still ongoing with the casing for the right one but the left is fully assembled now.
The casing has been stripped down completely, you can see the faded finish on the first picture. This was rubbed down, etch primed, gloss black (second photo per paint instructions) and then chrome painted per the last picture with an original for comparison.
All the corroded mounting studs were drilled out carefully and replaced with stainless steel bolts/nuts.
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Next step was to cut an aluminium plate out of some 2.5mm stock I had to fit the back of the light.. I’ve decided not to fit the standard back panels carrying the circuit board and bulbs. Once the plate was cut to a rough shape it was trimmed to an interference fit with a power file. This allowed me to drop a socket through the housing to determine the bulb centres, mark them and cut with a step drill. Next, some twist lock bulb holders wire dropped in, tags marked and hand filed. Grommet holes then drilled to route the wiring back into the housing. It’ll be wired internally and either exit in the usual spot or via a separate socket in the backplate or lamp body. To be finalised when I deal with the wiring later.
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Painted the back of the plate so it looks a bit tidier. And less scratched after a bit of sanding! Fitted the grommets, bulb holders and LED bulbs.
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Coat of paint on the rubber seal per factory and reassemble, all screws having a coating of copper grease! We’ll pleased with the result. Just a slight shame about the small dent in the frame but there was nothing I could do about that. Maybe I’ll find a better condition Siem frame one day?
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And, in anticipation of the why?
Standard Beta Coupe rear lights have four single filament bulbs. I’ve ended up with three double contact BAY15D and one single holder. Instead of one sidelight in the outer position and one brake light on the inner position I’ll have a pair in each position either side of the reflector. The indicators are single function and the reverse light now doubles up as a fog light. So nothing hanging off the bumper looking out of place.
Plus the chrome paint should be a little more reflective and the LEDs a little brighter.
Guy
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Hi Guy
Beautiful work.
I was just wondering if a white fog light to the rear is legal? I thought the rules dictate this must be red to the rear? Obviously with historic status MOTs are optional but I have ended up putting my historic status Montecarlo through an MOT for proof of roadworthy status and so AA European recovery would not refuse to recover the car on my recent trip to Classic Le Mans.
Eric
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Dual colour LEDs Eric. White for reverse and red for fog. The red light takes precedence over the white. Ti be 100% legal I need a latching relay so I can’t leave the fogs on the next time I get into the car. Only question is whether the fog light is too close to a brake light…. I’ll leave that to the MOT man!
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I just had my MOT and on a 79 plate it was unclear if fog lights were required or not as that's when the law changed. So I did a quick VOSA check and spotted there might be another condition for your switching ...
"A rear fog lamp must: only illuminate when dip, main or front fog lamps are lit"
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There's a cut off date for fog lights. 1978 you don't need them (Stratos gets away without them) 1979 (some date?) you need one on the offside. Although I think you can get away with one centrally mounted one. Somewhere in the back of my mind I think there's a "construction and use" rule about the spacing of foglights. Wiring is straight forward, relay power supply has to come via the light circuit. The current rules are slightly different, when the foglight is switched on they must not re-illuminate after the ignition is switched and back on until the switch is pressed again. Not that I anticipate using the car in fog.
Guy
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Shell is back. Not unexpectedly the screen surround was rough. The donor surround will supply some cuts but it’s going to need some fabrication. A new roof panel without sunroof would be ideal but I doubt there’s one available.
Floorpan looks great with a minor repair being needed on one jacking point. Rear arches have had repairs and filler which isn’t surprising but wasn’t expected. Minor repairs needed to both front inner and outer wings. Sills not as bad as I thought but will need new metal in places. Rear turrets slightly worse than expected and some holes in the B pillar. Boot and bonnet (bar the pin holes cut into it) are mint. Petrol flap a waste of time but there’s a new one to fit. Rear panel is horrible. Ideally I need a new one if anyone has a lead for a reasonably priced one I’d appreciate it! Pictures to follow.
Guy
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In no particular order!
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Screen and inner wing top
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Front crossmember and left sill/B post
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Rear panel, both sides. Not pretty! Anyone got anything better or a lead for a new one?
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Tops of the B posts. Bugger. Rear arch too.
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Left sill and rear arch
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Left sill - dented and slight crease and left front inner arch.
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Floorpan and boot floor - superb!
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Floorpan and front bulkhead
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Mint bonnet but rally pin holes need plating. Why why why! Easier for a previous owner to do than fix the release cables! Muppets.
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Rear turrets. Not as bad as feared. Seen lots worse!
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Front crossmember, outer skin in one spot gone. Unexpected as it’s perfect everywhere else but knew it was there after the valance came off.
Floorpan had a spot I wasn’t expecting. Hey ho.
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I didn’t get a good look at the doors but two will be easily repaired, one will be spare. No pics of the boot lids but both usable. I need to bring one home to fit a HiFi spoiler to.
Unfortunately time on the Beta is going to be limited for the next week - Geoff is off to Italy next week. Told him to bring a rear panel back with him.
Parts refurb had ground to a stop. The Pandas back axle broke one of its spring pans yesterday so I’ve got to strip that out and repair/replace and the Alfa needs a new rear wheel bearing or two doing. Good job I’ve got the Stratos replica to fall back on! Newark kit car show this weekend and the Lancia AGM the Sunday after!
Guy
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Life is getting in the way with Hawk Cars at the moment so updates and progress will be slower than hoped! The fabricator has been working on it, I hope to see it Friday or Saturday before the BetaMeeta do! Unfortunately he has said that the screen surround "rescued" from the VX Coupe at Mark's is in a terrible state and won't supply any repair cuts. However it is giving him dimensions an profiles to work from so it wasn't a waste of time removing it!
Guy
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Well things at Hawk cars really are delaying progress for me. Just got back after 11 days down there. Went to see some progress on the shell. The outer skin of the left side pillar has gone and the inner steel cut out and replaced. The top of the near side inner wing has also been repaired beautifully. The spare screen surround is being used to build up repair panels which are then going to be cut out and grafted into the shell. Progress is slow as Geoff gets other work that pays better on a daily basis!
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Hi Guy
Glad to see the progress, now if only I could get my guy to actually start on the HPE that would be a bonus.
Peter
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Not sure why but I can only see some of those if I download them. Good to see someone else grappling with rust though! Fascinating the different places the coupes go compared to the Spider.
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Popped over to see the car for the first time in a month today. Twice. I'll get to that...
I've been tangled up with Hawk Cars for the last 6 weeks since Gerry had an accident in the workshop resulting in a 6 week stay in hospital. This means I'm spending at least a week a month down South helping out. It's been traumatic.
So yesterday I got a message asking for the front screen as Geoff was rebuilding the steel around the aperture. The pillars are three layers of steel, the lower one was okay, the middle not great and the outer skin scrap. The inner has been replaced now and the VX one I retrieved from Marks is being used to provide a repair section. Except for the two lower corners which are having to be fabricated. I got there to see the work with the screen and the surround in the Alfa and it was immediately obvious that the profile Geoff did wasn't quite right, too tight. So the plan is now to remove the remains of the original scuttle and stitch the new one in so it can be done in situ.
I'd just grabbed the stainless screen surround and gone over with it. But it didn't seem to fit very well. It wasn't until I got home I realised I had two sets and I'd mixed them up. And they're different profiles!!!!!! The original is wider by 5 or 6mm with a crease in a slightly different place. So back to Geoffs with the (correct) other half, offered it up and it's a much better fit. It just confirms that the corners need redoing but the positive is that Geoff now has the correct profile to work to.
Should have taken some pictures for comparison and I'll do that next time I have them together to show the differences. Anyone seen this before? Wish I could remember where I got the thinner profile from! Probably Kevin Plowman...
Guy
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Another chance to go see the progress was taken yesterday! There are pictures of the state of the screen surround earlier in the thread. Plus the VX donor cut that wasn’t much better. Anyhoo, Geoff has almost finished this area off. The entire outer skin from side to side plus an inch back from the top of the screen was removed. Then the inner skin removed and replaced. The replacement screen surround was made up, full screen perimeter and joined to the existing forward edge of the scuttle. Then it was welded in. Screen offered up which highlighted an issue in the corners that was resolved with a bit of further work with the stainless surround as a guide. Just a bit of lead loading to do for perfection. And then onto the next grotspot.
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Hi Guy
Hope you do not mind, I rotated the photos as I could not get my head around them at the odd orientation.
Looking good, I guess he has some free time!
Peter
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Thanks Peter!
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Going to visit the shell tomorrow but not expecting huge progress. I had a delivery today after an anxious wait of 4-5 weeks. Luckily customs didn’t nab it and it survived shipping without any major damage. After the windscreen surround this was the worst panel on the car.
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Hi Guy
Glad you found one and no customs charges, full result.
Peter
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Like me bringing back an HPE rear 3/4 from Belgium on the ferry and trying to look innocent as I drive through customs. One of the benefits of an anonymous small saloon, you don't look too much like a smuggler.
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It's a few years (and pre Brexit) when we moved Andrea from Germany to the UK via Rotterdam in a LWB Mercedes Sprinter and went through the nothing to declare channel. Naturally we got pulled over and got asked about cigarettes & alcohol. Since neither of us smoke and Andrea doesn't drink the answer was none. They didn't believe us but didn't look any further than the side and rear doors from where they could see all her worldly goods.
Except the Ford Escort she'd driven across in a few weeks earlier that had all the contraband. Well, a couple of crates of beer and a few bottles of wine, within our limits at the time.
These days it's probably not worth the hassle of getting caught... M'lud.
Guy
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Minor progress, the fabricator is busy with other stuff running in parallel!
But the small grotspot on the front crossmember and the top surface of the left sill/B post and wing had been fixed. Properly.
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And on a worse note, we scraped off the sealant on the outside top edge of the rear turrets to find the steel on the inner wing above was AWOL. More fabricating to be done.
The next task will be to chop out the rear panel and stitch in the new one in. Then it can come off the lift and go onto a spit for better access.
Progress is slow but there is progress!
Guy
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Well done Guy for making it happen!
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And on a worse note, we scraped off the sealant on the outside top edge of the rear turrets to find the steel on the inner wing above was AWOL. More fabricating to be done.
The next task will be to chop out the rear panel and stitch in the new one in. Then it can come off the lift and go onto a spit for better access.
Progress is slow but there is progress!
Guy
You'll still probably be done before mine :)
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Back panel cut out… the panel underneath that needs work too. The outer skin is excellent, it’s the inner skin that’s been eaten oddly. The left side had a few patches and whilst the right side will need work too, across the rear edge, it gives Geoff a pattern to duplicate the repair panel to.
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More progress since Christmas! After the rear panel was removed Geoff could get at the top of the lower panel which looked like this after a couple of patches were removed. He's cut away all the rot, fabricated a new upper panel for this box section, hoovered out all the flakes of rust and welded the repair panel in.
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The new rear panel has been checked for fit and it's perfect. One corner needs bending straight (lower right) but that's it. It will be welded in once Geoff has repaired the suspension turrets as access is much easier without it in the way.
Once they're done the panel will be welded back in place and the shell put onto a spit which will make the repairs to the inner and outer rear wings much more straight forward before he moves onto the sills, sunroof cassette and rear window surround. Once the shell is done there are repairs to be done to the bonnet and both doors.
Guy
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The rear panel has 6 square holes around the pressing in the centre. I assume that they're for number plate fixings but I'm in two minds about whether to leave them like that or have them welded up. Anyone got any thoughts?
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6 seems excessive when a couple + adhesive double sided pads will suffice for the number plate, or just the pads?
Good progress, nice to see.
Peter
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Just Pads for the number plate. Why risk holes that might chip with plastic inserts going in and rust.
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My thoughts too. Six more holes to weld up then!
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I've been dismantling parts ready to take for shot blasting and powder coating, subframes and suspension components mainly and I've had a look at the rear transverse arms along with some spare I have acquired over the last year. All the adjustable ones look to be in great condition with minimal surface corrosion and all broke down into component for easily. I'll be replacing the bushes with Mark's poly ones. Given that powder coating is likely to fill the threads I'll do one set with a wire wheel, rust converter and a few coats of paint as an alternative.
The pressed ones are a different matter and have suffered heavier corrosion but are still perfectly usable. I've removed all the bushes in preparation for installing poly bushes here too but looking at the three I have I noted that the pair that came off the car have probably got some damage. On examination they both exhibited a bit of twist at the outer end when placed back to back. Easily cured in the vice with a an adjustable wrench. They then matched the third one I have with no twist along the length. There is a sign of a little more damage though not exhibited by the third one, a very very slight downward bend to the outer ends. I assume this is as a result of someone jacking the car at/near the hub/ARB.
I don't think this is critical to the geometry and I'm not sure if I should attempt to unbend them, it'll take more force than the marginal twist they had to straighten them.
What's the perceived wisdom of this forum and does anyone have a spare pressed arm they'd part with so I can get two sets powder coated at the same time?
Guy
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Hi Guy
Go with 4 adjustable rear links ditching the weak pressed items. This gives you more options for suspension set up including camber and they are much stronger. You will notice the Integrale has 4 adjustable links. Keep your straightest pressed link as a dimension template. This is what I have done.
Eric
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Thanks Eric, Peter is sending me a spare pressed one so i'll have 2 pairs to have powder coated. I've stripped two pairs of adjustable ones down and cleaned one pair up to paint so far. I think I'll do the other pair that way too and not powder coat as that would clog threads and cutting them again would destroy the integrity of the surface bond and lead to corrosion again. Plus I'm not sure what the pitch thread is and buying two more taps to clean them up doesn't appeal! Know my luck I'd run the left hand thread down the right hand end....
I think I'll need to order two more pairs of bush kits from Mark for the adjustable ones.... Good to have options though!
Guy
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Nest question - front wishbone, I've removed the inner bushes ready to get them shot blasted and powder coated and poly bushed with Mark's kit when it all comes back. But, have I left part of the bush in situ and does it need to come out or should it remain in place for the poly bushes?
Cheers
Guy
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Hi Guy
According to Mark’s site you leave the metal part of the old bush in as the bushes supplied are just PU, no metal outer unlike the originals. This should be no great hardship as those outers are usually ‘welded’ in place…..
Peter
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Not a view I was expecting to see today....
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The braces are good to see. They are taking no chances.
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Geoff is a professional - I trust him 110% with anything car related, he's saved the Stratos once already!
I'm not certain how he's attached the back yet, he was lacking about the for fuel tank mounting bolts, the chassis there is rock solid fortunately. I think he's planning on some serious time on it over the next two to three week, And I've just jinxed that...
Off to see it on Tuesday I think!
Guy
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Work is progressing on the nearside quarter. The paint stripping uncovered a horrible patch repair buried in filler as you can see. The cill was perforated underneath B post which was opened up and the inner membrane replaced and is now fully repaired. The inner arch to outer arch panel wasn't pretty either as you can see... Both have now been repaired and Geoff is moving on to the next grot spot.
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And the next Grot Spot is a biggie. The nearside rear suspension turret. The top of this is mint but the bottom where it attaches to the lower chassis member, well, like a lot, it wasn't really attached by anything other than a few layers of crusty oxide.... The lower outer skin was tapped to see how bad it was and it was bad so surgery started. Open it up and see how bad it really is..
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And keep going....
The inner chassis member was sound, th grot was working it's way in from between the inner skin and the base of the turret. With the rot cut out a new inner skin was shaped and fitted and then the lower half of the turret reconstructed in the correct gauge steel to the original pattern.
Proper job.
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And a big box of special bolts, brackets and doodads dropped off this morning for plating! Hope to get them back the week after next and drop the next lot off for zinc plating!
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This inner rear turret area is almost a standard Beta repair because of that recess section note being properly sealed helping rust eat away inside to out. I had this one done on mine as well.
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My precious ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Got to love shinny plated bits. I have done this at the full crate of nuts bolts and every thing else I had been hording for years. It took days to sort it out, but has been fantastic in building the Beta Spyder and fixing the Monte.
Just never do it on 12.9 blacked fastenings like cam bolts or sprung dome washers. They become brittle leading to expensive failures. I still threw away many shiny bits that failed the fit to use test.
Eric
PS it seemed to cost the same for a crate full as a small box of bits.
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The second batch of plated bits collected today and pretty happy with the result. The only failure was the boot latch mechanism which didn't plate for some reason, I'll have to find out why on the next visit but I have a spare one just in case!
I was assured that the plating process wouldn't damage the plastic/nylon bushes in the wiper rack so didn't bother to remove the rivets and they were right, it all survived. So, next job is to finish dismantling and cleaning the steering rack then reassemble with new bushes assuming there's no discernible wear or damage (or plateable parts!) and put the wiper rack back together once I've found the bag of related bits. It won't be far from the bench!
Guy
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More progress. The left rear turret and inner arches were completed today, all that remains is tidying up excess weld inside the car and Geoff can move onto the other side. Last job on this side was cutting out the rear jacking point which was sitting on a sunken sill as the welded edge was rotten/missing. Inside the box section it's all solid and a decision has been made to construct an internal tower to further strengthen this area before it's closed off once more. We might revisit the front ones before he's done.
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Nearside done now bar filling in the aerial hole! The rear suspension turret and box sections are as good as new, the outer inner arch has been cut out and the corrosion underneath removed and all rebuild with repairs to the lip of the arch as necessary. The sill on that side is back to full strength and the floorpan corrosion dealt with, jacking point straightened and the two lift points cut out, strengthen and reinstated. A small dent in the sill has also been fixed. Work has started on the offside rear arch and turret. Now Geoff knows the issues I'm hoping the repairs will be easier for him. Once that's done it's the sill on that side, stitch in the new rear panel and flip it back over so the roof can be worked on. And that will be the shell done. Minor bonnet repairs plus doors and botlid and it'll be ready to be dipped again ready for .... paint!
So I thought I'd better get on with some bits... The steering rack is now done except for the new bracket for the shock absorber and oil. That ought to be finished in the next couple of weeks once the bracket is welded, plated and painted.
The fuel tank has been in the garden shed since last Summer. It was drained of 20 litres of stale fuel and force vented for 30 minutes by attaching the filler pipe to the exhaust of the Alfa 159. Nothing left in there. So, dragged it out of the shed to assess what it needs. The bottom of the tank was covered in underseal and rust proofing spray. It had suffered a bit over the years and failed where it had been scraped so needed looking at. It started looking like this...
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And after a lot of scraping with a body filler spreader and treatment of the remaining paint with Nitromors to soften it up, more scraping and then a few hours with a wire brush this was the result...
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Next week I might be able to spend some time working on the top surface. Which doesn't have any underseal or much rustproofing fluid on it and isn't nearly as pretty... I'm pretty sure that it'll be sound though, there are no pinholes in it. Yet. But it's possible that some wire brushing and paint removal may identify any areas of concern.. The welded flange around the middle of the tank is sound so I'm reasonably confident it's okay. The inside of the tank is showing surface corrosion unsurprisingly. There's a lot of dust coming out of it at the moment so that'll get hoovered out. Next test will be to block the inlet pipe and all the fuel lines and pressurise the tank to see if there's any evidence of leaks, find them and fix them before treating the inside of the tank with POR15 tank sealer to effectively put an internal surface in the tank onto a rust free surface. And then POR15 semi gloss black paint to the outside surfaces, fit the new sender and seal and put it on the shelf ready to be refitted.
Progress continues!
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Well done!
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Looking good you should be well on this year with getting it back together
Peter
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Guy,
Just after you've used the tank sealer, I suggest that you blow
through all the pipework, especially the small vent tube/s,
for obvious reasons!
Good luck, excellent progress,
Cheers
Nigel
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And grease the fuel sender mount 'floating' ring thingy and tape/grease the studs before you put the sealer in - ask me how I know...........
Mark
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Thanks for the tips Mark & Nigel - I was planning on walking into the Frost Restorations warehouse with the fuel tank to ask about the likelyhood of fuel line blockages. I had planned on blocking the filler pipe and float sender holes with a cork bung from a beer maker with a rubber glove to give a good seal whilst the goop gets sloshed around. I hadn't considered that it might be able to find the threads on the sender ring though so great tip. I'll see if I can find a can of compressed air to clear the small lines once treated though, great tip!
Won't be happening for a week or so though, away from Friday and still got half the top surface and sides to clear of corrosion which may be covering/finding pinholes soon.
Guy
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Procrastination with the fuel tank... I'll get to it later this week I hope, there's just too much crud flying about the garage to contemplate putting paint on anything at the moment. I need to finish some stuff off and then give the garage a damn good sweep before I start working out the best method to treat it and put a timetable together (and warn Andrea I can't give her any lifts whilst it's ongoing!)
So, cleaning more stuff up.... I decided to have a look at the brakes at the end of last week whilst the next batch of bolts and brackets is off being plated. The callipers were dragged out from underneath the bench and removed from their yokes with a bit of violence. Or quite a lot. But they all came apart in the end. The locking pins will need digging out and springs replacing (probably) and I've got seal and piston kits on the way for the rear callipers to overhaul them. I'll get the front kits from Mark at the beginning of June. All the pistons are free (pushed out when I dismantled the car using wooden blocks to limit movement) and they are now soaking in penetrating fluid in the hope that the bleed nipples will release. I'm going to try it out on a scrap calliper first with the rattle gun but my expectation is just sheared bleed nipples and a lot of swearing to follow.
The carriers and yokes are responding well to the wire brush treatment, I think I need to get a tap to run down the threads but I have a question for the Forum - what's the finish on the carrier/yoke supposed to be? I assume it's plated?
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Gold Passivate Zinc plated
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Thanks Eric! Another trip to the platers tomorrow then!
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Hi Guy
I had some done and IIRC there are two basic zinc plating processes. One doesnt work well on cast iron and the other does so worth exploring that with your plater. If you are struggling after that Vehicle and General Platers at Arlesey did a good job on mine. (I think it might be the acid zinc process that works but dont quote me on it). Peter
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Thanks Peter, I've had one fail so far with the platers - the boot latch mechanism won't take the plating for some reason? Not worrying about it, I have a great spare one. Four carriers and four yokes to go in tomorrow along with another pile of sundry odds'n'sods. The callipers themselves have been soaking for a couple of days now, I'll give them a few more before trying to undo them. I may try the AFT and Acetone route, no rush. Except that the rebuild kits are sitting on the bench and it'd be nice to put everything away ready for the day.
Shopping list for Mark's on 6th includes a pair of rear discs (got a front pair for £48 NOS when I did a stocktake at Hawk Cars a couple of weeks ago) and a compensator valve plus it's bushes and a set of brass bleed nipples as well as a master cylinder. Picked up a NOS reservoir for £24 at the stocktake too! Then it's just a few unions/copper washers and the copper pipe and I'm good to go with the brakes!
Guy
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Well that's another part to be bagged and put on the shelf. Steering rack fully overhauled, no discernible play in the rack/pinion, replaced the track rod arm bushes with Mark's polybush kit, new track rod ends, everything cleaned and plated, new boots and a custom made stabilised bracket to take the new Audi shock absorber.
If anyone wants the original, newly plated, shock absorber bracket drop me a PM!
Guy
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Today was part something or other of the brake overhaul whilst the carriers are away being plated. They've been marinating in release fluid for 4 days or so. I took them over to Geoff's workshop to use his aqua blaster to clean them up and that worked a treat! Got home and noticed the offside arch on the Alfa had been scraped but no note left so that put me in a foul mood until I got at it with a rag and some TCut and was left with the faintest of scratches in the paint. So, thinking I might be having a lucky day after all I put all four callipers on the bench, dug out a decent 8mm socket and 1/4 inch drive for the bleed nipples. The first five gave it up without any effort and the sixth needed a little tap and a bit more force before it popped out too! Proper result! The rebuild kits are there so now all I have to do is extract the pistons. I may need to rig up something to push them out hydraulically!
Happy days!
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Hi Guy
Good result, I needed to use a rattle gun on my bleed screws. On the pistons you can use compressed air without too much issue rather than rigging up any hydraulic setup.
Peter
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Hi Peter, I really didn't want to use the rattle gun on something so small, if they hadn't given up with penetrating fluid the next resort was going to be a mixture of ATF and acetone and then some heat but at the end of the day it wasn't necessary.
One of the rear callipers is ready for reassembly tomorrow, I read the Haynes manual and it said don't attempt the disassembly of the return mechanism inside the piston but given that the new piston in the rebuild kit didn't have the internals there was no choice. In the end it all disassembled easily and, more importantly, went back inside the new piston very easily. I polished up the inside of the housing with Autoglym Metal Polish and there is one small mark in it half way down. I don't think it will cause any issues down the line though so it will all go back together tomorrow. Hopefully it's twin will be as good.
I've never dismantled a front calliper but the Haynes manual doesn't say don't do it so I'll have a go over the weekend. Unfortunately I don't have access to a compressor to shift them but I've got enough old hydraulic lines to jury rig something to shift both pistons. Geoff wants to see the disassmbled components, he's never seen anything like it and wants to get his head around how it works!
Amazingly none of the roll pins are damaged either so the standard Beta lines will locate properly. The only slight concern I've got is that all the locking pins are impacted into the bodies, I'm hoping I can lever them out to get them working again. If that fails I'll be employing a stainless long grub screw and tapping the calliper carrier.
Guy
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Hi
Never understood Haynes on the rear calipers saying do not touch. I stripped mine completely and rebuilt and they have worked faultlessly, even using the original pistons. As to the front ones they are pretty easy, the real pain is getting the retaining spring out which sits halfway down the bore. I found poking one of my dental tools through one of the two drilling’s from yhe outside helps to lift it out of its groove, then using another dental tool to gently encourage it out the rest of the way, being careful not to make a mess of the bore.
The real pain is reassembling the handbrake mechanism on the rear ones, that was a challenge which I seem to remember using the hydraulic press to hold part of it down whilst I aligned everything. I have that joy to revisit when I rebuild mine which are all cleaned ready to go back together.
Peter
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This week I've mostly been trying to recondition the fuel tank. It has not gone entirely to plan. I settled on the POR15 kit, a degreaser, etch solution and a liner paint.
The degrease process started with an initial clean using a pint of degreaser mixed with a pint of hot water, tank shaken for a while (good workout) and was then allowed to sit for an hour on each side, seven in total as the bottom has a sloped edge. Contents dumped into a bucket were negligible, I assume the two pint mixture got absorbed into the goop in the bottom of the tank. The flushed out material was horrible. Repeat the process and not nearly as much got absorbed and the flush was a lot cleaner but an internal inspection revealed that there was still evidence of crap in the tank. So today I went to Frosts in Warrington and bought another 2 pints. Came home, put it in the garage with the tank and came inside for a coffee before getting changed (this stuff is corrosive to skin) and put two pints of water in the garage kettle and emptied the contents of the bottle into the kettle and then into the tank, shook it around again, noticed a rattle that hadn't been there before and left it to sit for an hour before the next rotation. It was at that point I noticed the full bottle of degreaser in the garage and realised I'd mixed the etch solution with water and poured it in. Well, you're not supposed to do that. I think the etch solution shouldn't be mixed with water but hey ho, it got poured out and the correct degreaser solution put back in for another seven hours of treatment. What came out was much much cleaner so I'm happy to take the next step and fill it with the etch solution and then paint. But now I've got to go back to Frosts to buy another £25 bottle and have lost another day. Hey ho.
And the rattle? That was one of the two fill pipes going into the swirl pot in the bottom of the tank where the pick up pipe filter is. That's going to take some thought as to how to drop it back in place and secure through a 2 inch hole.... I think I might need a really long pair of needle nose pliers. And a beer or two after it's done this weekend.
I wish they put the solutions into different coloured containers but no, they're all white with different coloured labels.
Guy
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Life gets in the way. Progress is slow but things are still moving forward. I dropped some heavier parts off for blasting and plating a few weeks ago and collected them today. Not perfect but given the state they were in I’m happy enough! Some parts probably weren’t plated when new but just painted. So in the next month the plan is to POR15 etch and paint them semi gloss black and reassemble with new bushes and parts bought from Mark a few weeks ago. When the new springs arrive I think everything will be ready to go back on the shell to get it to a rolling chassis state. At least the parts will be ready before the welding and painting are done!
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More parts on the done shelf. All the plated suspension parts have had two coats of POR15 as well as the fuel tank. Bearings pressed in and a full set of Marks poly bushes done. Next job is the front subframe. It needs degreasing and then painting with POR 15. I don’t think I’m going to have it shot blasted or powder coated. There are 4 adjustable rear transverse arm ends in for plating and once they come back all I’ll need is the springs and one more set of poly bushes and the shell can be put on wheels.
Progress is slow but the fourth corner is done. Just the sill in the rear corner of the drivers door to fix, the top of the B post and a small repair in the rear window aperture before a roof swap. Then minor repairs to closing panels and it’s off for dipping and e-coating!
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Time for a Webasto? Well no. The blue panel is a cut from a donor car, the steel sunroof mechanism is out for good. I picked up a complete roof, chopped through the A,B and C pillars a week or so ago and dropped it off with Geoff. He'd hoped to be able to remove the complete skin and stitch it on but it turns out the replacement panel was rotten above the offside B pillar, almost up to the fold to the flat of the roof and the rear window aperture was also shot. Luckily the one on my car is solid there (amazingly for a sunroof car) but the cassette and steel roof were shot hence the decision to remove it. The edge you see here will be joggled before the repair panel is let in. The sill at the base of the B post on the drivers side has also been completed this week, I think all that's left on the monocoque is the top of the B post under the window, a repair to the lower edge of the rear screen aperture, fill the aerial hole, fabricate one of six mounting brackets for the front inner mudguards and weld in the new rear panel. Closing panels after that! Getting closer to paint!
Guy
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And every day is a learning day! I was working on the hubs this week, they had all been wire brushed and painted so unsurprisingly the threads needed cleaning out and it turns out I didn't have the right taps to do that but eBay son sorted that out. I cleaned out the two rears hubs and one of the fronts when I noticed that the internal splines on one of the hubs only went half way through. A quick check of the rebuilt driveshafts showed that both of them a fully splined so that ain't going to work. I did find a half splined outer CV joint in the stash of spares but I thin it's going to be easier to dismantle and clean up another front hub to match the driveshaft... Bugger. It won't be the last glitch!
Guy
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And I also picked up something to pull her along…
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It needs a bit of work to clean it up and a gasket set too. The sump needs repainting obviously. The engine came from a fellow Stratos builder who replaced it with an Alfa Romeo V6 many years ago. It's a 2 litre Guy Croft motor mated to a Volumex gearbox. The sump is baffled with a ported/blueprinted head and matched to a Guy Croft offset inlet manifold and twin 45 Dellortos. It's mentioned in the Guy Croft bible on page 237 it's allegedly good for 155bhp. Looks like it has the standard distributor and somewhere along the way I have acquired a new distributor, drive gear and oil pump to fit to it during it's strip and rebuild.
Guy
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Hi Guy
That was a good buy, especially like the top water rail!
The roof is proving to be a bit more of a headache than you expected.
On the hub, never seen one with only half the splines machined, wonder if this was from a specific car model?
Peter
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I might bring the half machined hub and CV joint with me next weekend Peter, I've found another one that I got from Kevin and that's also half splined.... Maybe that car was a 1300? I don't know anything else about those parts other than it was from a Coupe with a filler flap so an earlier car. Somewhere I must have another hub. Mine came with two!
The top water rail has a thermostat in the head, not sure about that modification in a Beta but made sense for a Stratos replica. The top pipe is nice but it'll need a feed putting in for the heater take off from the head and another out to the heater. I don't want to risk overheating a special engine on No4 cylinder!
Guy
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Be interesting to see the hub.
On the takeoff for cyl 4, the mod is very simple and does not need the top rail modifying.
Peter
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Roof replacement going nicely! The plan to unstitch it and do the whole skin has gone by the wayside as the frame on the replacement was too far gone. After a bit of thought on where to cut it Geoff opted to cut a section out and fill it with a large cut from the donor roof. Everything was centre marked before cuts were made and the edge of the cut was joggled for a good overlap. He's now drilling it to hold it together with Cleko's before it gets welded up fully. Could not be happier with it so far!
Guy
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Looking good. Soon be on to paint…..
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Went to see it today and Geoff was hoovering out the dust. So close to finishing the shell! He did a hitlist:
Aerial hole to be welded up.
Tab on A post front for mudguard to be fabricated.
Tab on outside front inner arch to be fabricated (wing mount hole)
Exhaust mount - remove a sheared bolt.
Minor grinding of welds on inner arches.
Next he's moving on to the bonnet which needs 4 holes plating where pins had been set up.. Doors - tops need rebuilding and maybe bases, boot lid is fine and a minor repair to the battery tray. Middle of September we're going to meet to arrange a suitable day for everything to go back for dipping etc. Time to choose a painter too.
Gulp. This is where the bills really roll in!
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Bonnet fixed. Geoff said the rest of the panels will be done this week. Book the dippers! Getting exciting.
Found another NOS part the other day digging around at Hawk Cars…. Sometimes it’s the little finds that make your day!
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Well done! They are rocking horse Poo thanks to the bulbs welding in place they are frequently broken.
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The list is getting shorter. Bonnet and both front wings are now done but both required surgery to the bottom and one to the arch lip. One door has a small dent that will need filler as we can't straighten it without removal of the skin. I can live with that. The valance has been straightened but may require a little more teasing when in paint. One door to repair the top of and a few little tabs/jobs and it's ready to go back to the dippers who are coming to collect the car a fortnight today. Hope to have it into the paintshop by the middle of October!
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Progress with the spoiler. I've managed to acquire two HiFi spoilers and this one is the better of the two. The fixing method and finish leave a bit to be desired though with 5 captive bolts being fibreglassed underneath the spoiler and holes drilled. No weatherproofing so guess what? They rust. I was going to replicate this fixing method with stainless bolts but decided a more modern approach would be better.
So, I sealed off the surface of the boot lid with parcel tape, laid the spoiler on top and marked the perimeter. Next step was to cut some matting into 2 inch strips and lay it on top of the lid inside the lines, a couple of layers is sufficient I think. Once it was cured it could be carefully lifted off the lid and laid over the spoiler. A lot of careful sanding later and it fitted neatly within the perimeter of the spoiler and could be taped in place. Some resin was applied on each side and allowed to cure.
Next step was to clamp it back onto the boot lid and run a bead of filler between the flange and the lid to take up any slight gaps and give me a neat edge where the spoiler had been damaged over the years.
In order to finish to off fully I just want to put some more matting between the new flange and the underside to stiffen it up a little more. There are a few scratches and marks on the outside that will need a skim of filler to get perfect but it's a rough old thing, a bit wavy in places but will respond well to paint.
A HiFi spoiler really ought to be black, they weren't painted, just the gelcoat finish. But given it's state I'll have it painted body colour in due course and then it will be permanently Sikaflexed to the boot lid.
I'm not 100% sure I'm going to like the look. But it's an option as it's going onto the spare boot lid. I'll make my mind up in due course!
Guy
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Hi Guy
Sadly I never liked the HiFi spoiler, always looked a bit ‘tacked on’ look compared to the VX etc.
Peter
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I'm not sure I'm going to like it either Peter but having been given one and also having a spare boot lid it seems silly not to try it out. It's two springs and four nuts to change stand was to store in the garage if I don't like it.
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Big day today - spent it at Geoffs nailing panels back on for a dry fit. The wings went back on perfectly but the front valance didn't want to play nicely. The left side lined up beautifully but the right side took some work, it took us a while to identify that the end was flat underneath the headlamp surround when it needs to have a slight upwards curve. Once we'd identified that and teased it back into shape it was apparent that there was a dent in the front of the wing... A little more panel beating and it all came together nicely. The bumper was added to make sure the profile was right. The bumper isn't the one I'll be using, it's damaged/split bent down on the left side but was great as a profile check.
The rear panel on the car is new old stock and I made the decision to have the number plate holes welded up before paint so we think that's the last job for Geoff to do. I'm planning on spending Monday & Tuesday there again with some Scotchbrite pads going over every square inch of the outside of the car and maybe the inside and underside too to see if there are any areas we've missed.
The windscreen was tested to ensure it's going to fit with the stainless trim too, all good which is amazing considering how much surgery has been done there with a new scuttle, pillars and roof work.
Then it all has to come apart again as the dippers want it that way. I may ask them if I can visit once it's done to rehang everything before they bring it back to us. But that may make it too heavy to lift....
I feel as if a light has been switched on at the end of the tunnel today.
Guy
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Exciting serious progress. At this rate it becomes a car in the spring sunshine.
Well done
Eric
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Looking superb Guy.
I had a similar issue with the front valance recently, I also found that
the wing was not correct.
Looking forward to watching the build-up.
Nigel
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Hi Guy
Glad it is all coming together, will be worth the wait.
Peter
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The front wings don't look the picture now! I should have taken another picture after I'd spent an hour or so on each one with a Scotch pad. It took all the tarnishing off. I plan to do the same on Monday and Tuesday morning on the rest of the surfaces before a final hoovering to get as much of the dust and debris out as possible. Of course the objective of doing that is to find any imperfections that require welding. There are inevitably going to be areas that need a skim of filler after all the work that's been done. Roof and scuttle mainly. Not worried about that at all!
Guy
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I'm fooked. And deaf. Two days of going over the shell and panels with a drill/wire brush to spot anything we'd missed. One tiny grot spot on the front face of the offside rear turret and a few pinholes in the drivers floorpan. The plan for this morning was to get there early before the transport arrived and fit RivNuts in the top of the inner wing and the bonnet grille holes. I was just about to drag the bonnet out when he pitched up to take the car away at 9.45. Earlier than expected. So, the next time I see it it ought to be a nice even electrically applied satin black inside and out and down every box section. The painter has been lined up. Christ that's more than I thought it would be..... Oh well, gone this far, can't spoil the ship for a hap'orth of tar! Should be back early/mid October, hopefully back home before Christmas!?
Guy
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Well the shell and parts were collected a week or so ago.
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And carefully loaded and tied down, all covered, for the next stage of the journey.
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And it's all coming back next Wednesday and should be a nice satin black on every surface. Delivery is to the paint shop I've chosen, no date given yet for the painted shell to come back to me but there will be some work to be done so not expecting it within a month.... Still got lots to do.
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When the car is painted it'll come home as a rolling shell which leaves me with a few tasks to complete in the coming month or so. Better not hang around. I've been thinking about the front subframe for a while. Initially I was going to have it blasted and powder coated but decided that was the wrong way to go, it it gets damaged rust will set in quickly and possibly unnoticed. I also considered blasting and galvanising but the risks of distorting it are too much so in the end there was little choice but to attack it with the wire brushes to remove all the remaining (original) paint and crud from the outside, remove the surface rust that was inevitably there, bash out a couple of dents and treat it with rust converter then a four coats of POR15. Now that that is done I think I can wait a few days until it's fully cured and assembly can begin with the wishbones and anti roll bar plus engine mounts maybe.
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I also want to fill the subframes box sections with black Waxoyl whilst it's still accessible and 100% dry inside. That ought to protect it for another 40 odd years!
And then there's a slight step backwards. Having seen how nicely POR15 goes on I decided that the components I'd previously treated by wire brushing, red oxide spraying and top coating weren't as protected as I'd like. So the wire brush came out again to strip the rear transverse tubular arms back to shiny steel and they've had a few coats too. Next I'm looking at the front hub carrier/steering arms and rear stub axles and hubs. Trouble is I've pressed the bearings in so I'm going to have to find a way to protect them from the flying crap the wire wheeling will produce.
And, if there's any POR15 left I'll have a go at the old (temporary) springs so I can assemble the suspension struts. Which will leave me with a parts hunt to find everything I need to assemble the body and put the subframes and suspension and steering on it. I don't want to forget anything as the car will be an hour away from home...
Wheel refurb also started this week - It'll be riding on Delta integrale 15 inch pepper pots so the set of four I got have been stripped back to raw and primered ready for a test top coat before they're painted dark Anthracite, diamond cut and lacquered. Next hit for the credit card is a set of tyres. Hey ho.
I can see a Winter being spent in the garage. Probably a Spring and Summer too.
Guy
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After a little research I've ordered a set of four Continental Ultra Contact 195/55 R15 85V TL tyres, Good efficiency and wet rating plus I've had Continentals on the 159 for almost 10 years and like them. £370 delivered from Camskill tyres is a pleasant surprise... If only you knew how much a new set for the Stratos rep are :o!
In terms of being comparable to the original 185/65/14 tyres - it's immaterial on the rolling radius so the speedo will remain accurate. The only issue is going to be the marginally wider tyre caused heavier steering at parking speeds. But the Stratos has 205 section tyres on the front and a smaller steering wheel I'm not going to worry about that!
Guy
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After a little research I've ordered a set of four Continental Ultra Contact 195/55 R15 85V TL tyres, Good efficiency and wet rating plus I've had Continentals on the 159 for almost 10 years and like them. £370 delivered from Camskill tyres is a pleasant surprise... If only you knew how much a new set for the Stratos rep are :o!
In terms of being comparable to the original 185/65/14 tyres - it's immaterial on the rolling radius so the speedo will remain accurate. The only issue is going to be the marginally wider tyre caused heavier steering at parking speeds. But the Stratos has 205 section tyres on the front and a smaller steering wheel I'm not going to worry about that!
Guy
I always found the unassisted Stratos steering very manageable due to no weight over the front axle.....
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It's back. Returned after treatment at Envirostrip to the paintshop I've chosen to finish the bodywork and reattach the panels before the newly rebuilt subframes, suspension and steering are fitted to bring the car home on it's wheels to start the reassembly and retrimming. Now that the flash rust has been removed and the E-Coating applied it's protected inside and out, every surface on every box section is done. Once the paintwork has been done and it's home I will be filling all the open box sections with rust proofing fluids and letting that dry before a second application to be really sure. Still lots to be done and a few bits that need to be taken to the paint shop but there's no rush, it'll be the new year before it's ready to come home.
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Now that the shell is in black primer we can see all the surface imperfections (aka dents) in better relief. And there are more of them than I remember!
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The bodyshop has said that most of the imperfections are going to be lead loaded with only a light skim of filler where needed.
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So that means it'll be heavier than standard as there'll be a bit required on the front scuttle and the roof....
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And for the ultra observant the bonnet looks odd because behind the right side vent aperture rests the second bootlid that will have the HiFi spoiler attached for any days I feel like a change! Probably not many...
Not pictured are the front valance, second door and battery tray that were all treated plus the two A Post infill panels and the fuel filler flap that weren't treated as they were new old stock item. The other new panel that was treated is the rear panel between the lights, I carefully removed the primer on the outside but didn't bother with the inside however it's come back black so the E-Coating worked on that too.
Lots more shopping to do now. Sound deadening, headlining material, wiring loom and an exhaust spring to mind...
Guy
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Impressive progress and very satisfying. I also got a shock when my car came back from Envirostrip because previously hidden dents were no longer hidden. We also found the 1 bit of rust previously missed that was then cut out and replaced with new steel.
Eric
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Going to see the car tomorrow to check on progress with paint and drop off a box full of brackets and fixings so the wings, doors, bonnet, bootlid and valance can be nailed back on. It's been a few weeks since I've seen it so hoping for some good progress. In the meantime the wheels of choice - Delta integrale pepper pots - have been stripped, checked for damage (one small repair needed), painted, diamond cut and lacquered, cured and tyres fitted. Job was done by Tomar Alloys in Widnes and I am really really happy with the result. The only slight issue - I need to source another one for a spare, maybe two, and get them treated too.
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There is an alloy center Integrale space saver if you can find one. You then get a more recent steel space saver for the tire outer diameter merge them together for a spare that fits neatly in the boot. As a bonus if you upgrade brakes it will fit over them. I have this for both the Monte and Beta Spyder.
Eric
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That's a good call Eric! I'll keep an eye open but I still think I'll try to find another couple of rims whilst the paint code is still fresh in the mind of the team that restored the first 4!
Guy
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Delta wheels look good on a Beta imo. Have you gone for 6 or 7 inch width? 7’s are a squeeze on the rear.
6’s go on easy but fit/look best with a little spacing.
Cheers
Ian
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The set I found are 7 inch Ian - thanks for the warning - I may need to adjust the track by deleting the spacer plates but that's for days to come! I will be carful when it arrives!
Guy
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Well the trip to the paintshop was worth doing! Lots of taps run down threads and all clear of the heavy black paint used by the dippers! The shell is no longer black but is in first primer coat. They've gone over every square inch and there's a few areas with stopper/filler in now ready to be flatted by hand before more primer. The wings and bonnet are done. The valance will be done this week and the doors and boot lids probably next week. It's looking really good. I'll be back at the weekend when they will have primered the interior/boot areas! More pics to follow soon.
Guy
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T'other side.
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The front bit..
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Wings
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Bonnet
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All very satisfying to see it in primer.
Will not be too long now!
Peter
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Looking really good. I love the standard you’re working to here Guy. Thoroughly enjoying the picture updates of that lovely shell.
Chris
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Four bastard hours in the garage looking for the effing spring..... Wasn't with the plated parts - why? Because it fell off the bloody shelf onto the floor and I had to fish it out with a magnet. I want to fit this assembly before the painted shell comes back "just in case" and now I need to clean and plate it and looking at the black painted piece I'm not happy with the finish on that either. Let's start that one again I think. Am i right in thinking the bonnet bracket is held in place with three Phillips head bolts? Cannot remember now!
Guy
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IIRC you should have 2 plastic blocks and 4 pozi screws to hold the black piece and spring
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Somehow the plastic blocks disappeared out of shot Tim - but they are there. One posidrive bolt holds each of them down. There's a slot/hole in the crossmember for the two spring ends and three holes for bolts/screws in the bonnet bracket. They're not bagged up so I'll measure what I need and fit new ones. The old ones must have been so chewed up getting them out they weren't worth plating.
Guy
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Hi Guy Yes they were Philips head bolts but stainless cap heads with washers look neater and give you a better chance of removal in the future. If I remember correctly I struggle to find a decent spring and metal loop from a many cars selection. So many were rust pitted.
Eric
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I'm amazed at the condition of the bracket and safety strap Eric but the actual metal loop is pretty pitted. Hence the painted finish - I'll probably leave it as is and see if I can find a better one in the years to come!
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One step backwards and a couple forwards with more to come!
Early on in the restoration I wire brushed the front steering arms, rear stub axles, rear brake dust covers, top suspension mounts and rear hubs back to nice rust free finishes and then red oxide primered them and satin black topcoat it all. Moving forward these parts have been moved around the garage several times and, looking at the finish again, it was pretty obvious that the top coats weren't as hard and had suffered lots of little nicks. Long term this finish wasn't going to stand the test of time so yesterday I got the wire brushes out and stripped most of the parts back. I've got another day at it tomorrow before these parts get the POR15 clean, etch prime and two top coats so the finish matches the rest of the undercarriage in terms of colour and durability.
I've been putting off the springs because they're a pain in the arse to wire brush. And I thought that I'd get a set of lowering springs from Mark but that project has been held up with wrong specs being made for Mark so I decided, as the car is due back in a few weeks, that I needed to crack on with rebuilding the suspension with the old springs. But I couldn't bear the thought of putting the original ones back on as they were corroded and looked a mess. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Took them to Quality Powder Coating Ltd in Skelmersdale to see what they could do with them. Dropped them off on Monday, got a call yesterday lunchtime to say they were done and collected Thursday. Apart from a small mark where they were hung (I think) they look as good as new! I'll touch up the marks with something close enough and should have a rebuilt set of struts this time next week! Watch this space.
Guy
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And another step forward - previously painted with red oxide and satin black topcoat, the parts showed lots of scuffs and scrapes and chips from being moved around storage! So I decided to strip it all off and repaint it with POR15. I'm now ready to reassemble the rear hubs onto the stub axles and, once the Delta front hubs have been machined, the front hubs onto the steering arms. After that it's only the spring pads that need a clean before I can reassemble the front and rear struts ready to be fitted back to the shell.
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And after paint.
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Also been back to the paint shop, progress continues. The seams have been sealed inside and out, the interior is being primed and the exterior has been sprayed ready for it's final block sanding. The paint has also arrived ready to be applied sometime in the New Year!
Guy
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and seam sealing
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And the body as of yesterday
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Wow!
base is already good! is the Beta sprayed into epoxy primer?
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It's taken a year or so to get the base into good condition! I think it's an epoxy primer.
Guy
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Good day yesterday - painter called to say bring money, it's painted inside, underneath and engine bay. Outside next and probably also the closing panels. I'll see it tomorrow!
Not such a good day today. Decided to assemble the four shocks in anticipation of the car coming home but it didn't go quite as well as planned.
I managed to get the four inserts into the refurbed struts and tightened down ready for the springs and that's where it started to go tits up.
I managed to get the spring compressors onto the front springs only to realise they were the rears. Off they came and onto the longer fronts. Now that the springs are powder coated they're nice and smooth and, you guessed it, I can't have been tightening them evenly as one slipped and took my thumb with it half way round the spring. To the other compressor. Ow. At least you couldn't see the blood on the springs as they're red.
Oh well, the rear springs, being shorter are easier to compress and fit to the shocks. Well yes but that went tits up too as none of the spring pads I've got (lots) are the rear lower ones. They're a narrower diameter than the fronts and a check of the parts book confirms it. Looking at Marks site he's out of the PU replacements and has no used stock.
So, has anyone got any rear lower pads (Part no 82284077) they can spare before I resort to cutting a good front one down and zip tying it to the spring/spring seat in desperation? I am happy to swap for good front ones or for beer tokens! Heeellllppppp!
Cheers
Guy
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Hi Guy
Let me check, but suspect I will be struggling to find 2 decent ones for myself.
Peter
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Hi Guy
First major sympathy for the thumb! A clean cut and superglue on the rubbers might get you a victory whilst you wait.
Eric
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Thanks Peter & Eric - I have got an enquiry in with Cavalitto in Turin who may have some. Fingers crossed (but not thumbs) that they or Mark come through. I'd prefer the right sized ones to cut down fronts but if needs must in the next fortnight I'll try that solution.
Cheers
Guy
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Got over to see progress this morning and it's looking good. As expected the engine bay is done including the scuttle area and the interior, boot and underside are also finished I think. No lacquer on the inside yet and I'm not sure if they're doing that. The colour looks exactly what I wanted. Hope to get the car back at the end of the month!
Guy
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And inside..
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Happy Days! Take the time to feel satisfaction!
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What a lovely job Guy. love the colour too.
Although it doesn't get in the way, you could have removed the redundant clutch
cable bracket. Perhaps you wanted to keep some originality.
Looking forward to the build.
Nigel
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Never even gave it a moments thought Nigel! It's not like I need to save weight with this build but yes, I'm looking forward to the build stage too. Whilst there are lots of parts ready to go back on immediately the engine and box still need doing, plus radiators and wiring loom and headlining.... I'm not going to rush it. Might be nice to have it ready for the NEC show in November? I'm sure that there will be a load of parts I'll end up waiting on that aren't on the shelves yet (exhaust for example). If I had been fully retired and able to work on it 7 days a week then it might have been a simple assembly job from February but that's not the case. I lose a couple of hours a day with work and a week a month away from home with Hawk Cars. Not that I begrudge that at all, far from it!
Guy
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In addition to the steering and suspension I'm going to put back on the car so it can come home on it's wheels later this month/early next month I want to attach the bumpers to the car. Just in case. Any/all protection wanted!
When I bought the car it didn't have any bumpers but over the last 2 years I've managed to acquire a few and two of them are perfectly straight and undamaged so they're the ones going on the car. But I have questions:-
1. What should the finish be on the brackets front and rear? Just plated or painted? They're in the box for this weeks trip to the platers right now.
2. The rear brackets are fitted to the body via studs poking through the rear valance. The Beta Bible I have doesn't show anything between the bracket and the body to protect the paint. Should there be anything? I'm contemplating adding a very thin rubber gasket - something like a section from a bicycle inner tube.
Cheers
Guy
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Hi Guy,
The bracket were Gold Passivate as you still see from the Italian Sellers on eBay selling new ones. I have never seen factory paint protection, but thin self adhesive closed cell foam would do no harm IMHO.
Eric
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Thanks Eric - I didn't think to check eBay, I thought these parts would be NLA! That said, mine will be cheaper to have replated rather the replaced looking at the prices there. I think I'll stick with thin rubber rather than closed cell. I'll also use some Nylocs in this instance to make sure it can't rattle loose.
Guy
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Errrrm - not sure if I have a problem or not with the front struts. The components of the assembled strut, from top to bottom is the top plate, bearing, spring carrier, rubber, spring, rubber and strut, all held together with the nut on the top.
Looking at the left one you can see that when the top plate is bolted to the chassis the strut will point down and towards the front of the car.
Looking at the right one you can see that when the top plate is bolted to the chassis the strut will point down but towards the rear of the car.
I expected to see the struts exhibiting some inbuilt castor angle which the left one does but not the right one. I have looked at the Beta Bible but not found any reference to there being different part numbers for the left and right spring carriers which are the parts that would induce a bit of natural castor.
Obviously when the lower hub/driveshaft carrier is attached to the strut and then the bottom wishbone there will be an element of give in the rubber in the top plate to pull it into line but am I missing something here? Is there in fact a right side upper spring carrier that has an inbuilt castor angle like the left one? (and if so, where can I get one!)
Two photographs attached, one showing the orientation when installed on the car and the other both angled for the left side so you can see the angles on the top plates are the same.
Cheers
Guy
Further, I've got three top spring carriers, two that came with the car, one that Peter kindly supplied when one of mine was deemed too corroded to use. All appear to have the same angle on the carrier.
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Like the bucket of wire wheels!
Seriously isn't geometry defined by the bottom elements of the suspension?
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Of course it is Tim, my concern is that the left side, on the bench looks right, the strut having an angle that matches the castor angle whereas the right one looks like it's got to be pulled into position which I think it'll do but if that strains something that shouldn't be strained I'd wonder why. How come Lancia didn't have a spring pan for the right side that leaves the strut facing forward? I'll wait and see how it all goes together in a couple of weeks unless someone else can identify an issue with the assembly!
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Perhaps some rotation of the strut assembly?
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I tried that but the spring seats preclude any other orientation. I'll see what it looks/feels like when I put them on the car. Visited on Friday to be told that the opening panels had all been hung and gaps were great, all removed and either painted or ready for top coats which will happen this week followed by a lot of flatting and polishing to perfection. The car comes back with dire threats to avoid scratching it.... Hopefully at the end of this month! Just need to find covered transport now.
Guy
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I don’t have an explanation for your mis-seated springs but a few questions that may be worth looking into. Are the springs Original Lancia springs or aftermarket lowered that aren’t formed very well? Or if they are original is it possible that someone has cut a bit off to lower it?
If you see my original Berlina strut assembly the start and finish point for the coils are almost in line whereas yours appear to be 180 degrees apart. Maybe this is just down to different springs fitted on different models but if someone on the forum can take a peak under their coupe they can confirm if the springs start and finish like yours or like mine.
Hope this helps
Ian
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Thanks Ian, definitely the original springs and neither is cut down. I will have another look at them and maybe disassemble the offside one and turn the ring upside down just in case that makes a difference! My thought was that the lower half of the upper mount differed from side to side but that doesn't appear to be the case. I'll report back with findings in due course.
Guy
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Well the springs will have to wait until tomorrow. Last week I had a low rise lift delivered to help with the rebuild and general maintenance, I really missed the 4 post I used to have in the last garage but that's not a possibility for this place, the roof is so much lower. I won't be able to use it to it's fullest rise and will have to modify the rise-stop switch to suit so it can't get too high. It was an eBay purchase of an ex-display showroom model but the seller cancelled the sale and offered a brand new one for the same price with a full guarantee. It was dropped off just inside the garage but was easy enough to get off the pallet with a trolley jack and a bit of careful thought. It needs a 13amp plug fitting, there are two hydraulic lines and four electrical connections. It raised first press of the switch. and stayed there. It would not come down. A quick message to the seller and a phone call ensued - there is a safety valve that controls descent speed that is shut and needed opening until you're happy with the speed it drops. Glacial for me is safest! Now I just need something to put on it. Should make reassembly easier and, most importantly for me, no more lifting engines out of the engine bay, it can go in on the subframe nice and safely!
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Great minds think a like! I have been working my way to a high rise scissor lift that is recessed in the floor when not in use. I will have to adjust the limit switch as well. Note sometimes they have to go up a bit more to release a safety lock. You do not want to find out about this with the car on the lift or your beautiful roof will be modified. So far I have the low profile ceiling lights, power run and roller shutters in place of sectional doors so no door structure getting in the way.
Unfortunately my concrete floor needs real building work to get much further and the money has been reallocated to Solar and battery storage in place by Spring.
I rejected 1 or 2 post lifts because there are chunks of large metal in the way when you are not using them so they would make my garage less versatile.
Eric
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I've already noted that the lift does raise slightly before it starts descending and I know that I'll have to factor that in when work out the final lift height. Obviously it has to co-incide with one of the various locking catches but there's enough of them to give me options for both the Beta and the Stratos replica. The Stratos has a flat floor so won't need more than a sliver of rubber pad whereas the Beta will need careful checking to decide on pad heights.
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It's getting close to coming home. I dropped in at the paint shop to be greeted by a grinning boss. The colour and lacquer is on and the final flatting and polishing process has started. I'd take it as is but the boss won't let it go out until he's 100% happy with the result. An appointment has been made for me to start suspension assembly on Monday so it's looking like I need to find a transport company with a covered trailed for next week!
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There was a hiccup this morning though. I was doing final assembly of the front stub axles and had torqued down the locking, the Delta hubs that I'd had machined to remove the wheel locator that's on the Beta disc were already in place so last job was to fit the disc. It didn't. The Beta hub is 116mm and the Delta 117mm. Luckily I found a machinist who will resolve the issue for Monday.
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I need to make an idiot list of the parts and tools I'll need to ship across on Monday to start assembly.... it's a 45 mile round trip if I forget anything....
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So glad that sunroof went! If anyone needs sunroof components (except the steel panel itself) drop me a message - they're all still around somewhere in the garage and won't be thrown out.
Guy
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Thanks for sharing Guy ! it looks super.
It's interesting because the bottom photo on your last post is the first time that I've seen the 'Fulvia' in the design! ( around the C pillar ) anyway I digress,
I wanted to ask if the Silver is the Factory Light Silver ( like on mine ) or a 'special' custom one you've specified.
apologies in advance if it's already mentioned on the thread I had a look but couldn't find it.
It looks ( better than ) new again, great Job!
Thanks for sharing.
Andrew.
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It's interesting because the bottom photo on your last post is the first time that I've seen the 'Fulvia' in the design! ( around the C pillar ) anyway I digress,
I guess you know its the same designer who penned both!
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Hi Guy
Getting very exciting for now….
Peter
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It's the later VX colour that I specified Sandro. To be honest, if it's lighter than that I won't be unhappy as it just looks great! I'll know more when it comes out of the paint shop on it's wheels in the next week. I hope.
Guy
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Thank you both for your replies!
Yes that Sliver looks great! ..it's a beautiful body shape with subtle transition panels along its length
and the silver or the metallics accentuate these body planes. ie: offer great depth.
( sorry Industrial designer by trade ) I tend to go on about this. ;)
Can't wait to see it on Wheels.
Thanks again.
Andrew
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Well I managed to load everything to put it back on it's wheels into the Skoda Superb Estate this morning, all carefully wrapped, covered and tied down with the exception of the wheels. It just swallowed the front subframe assembly, the steering column, the cross engine bay bracket and the steering rack, two front struts and hub assemblies, the rear crossmember and transverse arms, rear hubs, struts and the anti roll bar assembly. Plus two bumpers and tool kits. All the required fixings are packed too I hope. Day two will see the wheels nailed on I hope! Then it's just waiting for the painter to declare it finished, pay him and find someone to transport it home.
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And everything I took to the paint shop got fitted to the car today. I had to borrow two nuts from the front suspension to fit to the rear anti roll bar to floorpan and one of the studs for the rear bumper is iffy so I may have to get a tap to run down that before the rear bumper can go on.
But there was a real bugger, b*****cks and f**k moment.
The painter said, the second I walked through the door, that the petrol flap was the wrong one. So, has anyone got a good petrol flap for a Coupe? Luckily he still has enough paint to do it when I find one...
Photos to follow, kinda wrecked, you may have to wait until tomorrow when I put the wheels on.....
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Photo overload to coming...
First parts reattached were the rear crossmember that was preassembled with two sets of adjustable arms set to the same lengths left and right, front and back. All with Marks polybushes of course!
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Next up it was the rear struts followed by the rear ARB. Attaching the outer end bolts with the brake shields in place was a bit of a challenge but ultimately successful. Attaching the right front transverse arm caused a slight hiccup as it was resting on the floor. So I had to undo the outer end, counting the turns, lift the arm and wind it back on. Got there in the end!
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Then moving onto the front the subframe assembly went on first. On my own, no help except from a wooden stool that was the right height and a trolley jack. Very easy to manoeuvre into place and lift by hand the last inch or so to locate the spikes and slot the bolts in. Might be harder with an engine attached....
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Next was the struts, despite concerns about alignment they both pulled into place easily enough.
Looking at the picture I realise that I'd attached the steering rack with it's grommet before that. The first part put on was the transverse servo frame followed by the inner steering column bracket and the column itself plus steering wheel.
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Steering assembly inside the car.
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Day two, took the wheels over and attached them to the hubs, there is a little play in the rear wheels that I think is the wheel centres settling onto the disc spigot. But the bolts don't seem overly long enough for me to want to tighten them too much in case I strip something. Investigation required when I get it home!
The front bumper had been attached the day before, the rear today.
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And from the rear, on it's wheels, on the ground for the first time in eighteen months.
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Once it was on the floor I could do a very quick visual check of the suspension geometry. Needless to say ground clearance isn't an issue. Rear wheels looked pretty parallel and even down the sides (as would be expected by having the transverse arms set equally) but the front displayed significant toe out. A little turning of the rack adjustors had them parallel and a gentle push showed it rolls very very easily. No brakes. At all. It has to be chocked at the moment.
Collection is planned for early Thursday, it should be home later that morning!
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Very Nice and Satisfying ! Those wheels are thick around the bolts so likely you need longer bolts so take care.
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Bought longer bolts Eric.
Sadly they are not long enough. There's sufficient bite to get it home on the (covered) trailer and into the garage but no further.
Live and learn!
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Looking very nice, Guy. You must be excited to get on with the work.
Mark
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A brand new Beta....!
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And you did not think you would be on the road before me….. I think you will be way ahead of me!
Looking really smart I have to say!
Peter
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Haven't touched the engine or box yet.
Some brake parts to be done.
New loom to be designed/made.
No exhaust yet.
Headlights too.
Headlining to sort out.
The list just goes on and one. But it is getting shorter and the big bills are behind me now. I hope.
Guy
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I have one big bill left to do the paint, then as you down to me, before we go for the tuning etc.
What is your thoughts on the engine/box? Full or partial or no strip down of the engine? Is the box a known one or will you just give it a go and see how it performs? Are you going to replace the clutch while it is out of the car?
On the wiring loom, can you reuse what you have or was it past its use by date?
Peter
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The engine is a Guy Croft motor that's sat for a few years. Maybe 15 (well stored) in a garage so it'd be mechanical suicide not to strip it down, clean it, check it and paint it before reassembly with new gaskets and a few shiny bits. I have a NOS distributor and oil pump and the connecting gear (that's been in stock since I had a 124 Spider). If there is any doubt about the parts they'll be replaced. Full gasket set supplied by Mark.
The gearbox is a VX one, I'll check that over and change the oil as a matter of course. I've also got a spare gearbox (non VX) and I'm contemplating butchering that in an attempt to see if I can get an Alfa Q2 differential to fit. The bloke who bought the Alfa 159 Q4 from me recently has offered to have a look into that with me - it may be a small business opportunity for him?
I'll assess the existing clutch on the engine but the chances are that the plate will be replaced and work done on the flywheel if needed.
On the loom I think it's probably toast. To future proof the car I'm considering another big bill in the form of a Simtek loom and do away with all the fuses and relays and end up with an electronic loom with a lot less connections. If that happens then the original loom is likely to supply little more than special connectors like the ones on the instrument panel and switchgear.
Lots still to do before I get to these jobs. Once it's home I want to sort out some external trim, door handles, latches etc so that the body is better protected in the garage environment. Then a bit of soundproofing. Or a lot. And then a few days on cavity waxing! There are a few parts hanging around the garage that will either be cleaned and re-used or used as pattern parts. That's the fuel and brake lines plus the fuel tank and carpets. Once they're in I'm creating a lot of space on the shelves which means they can go to create even more space to work around the car.
Well, that's the plan, let's see how it pans out!
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Hi
Interesting on the loom, I did consider using a PDM setup, but balked at the cost it would likely be (I have spent enough to date and know I still have a fair way to go).
On the engine gasket set, what head gasket are you aiming to use?
Peter
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Probably the one supplied in the kit by Mark, it's a decent make, I think it's Payen but it's too cold to go look right now!
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And it's safely home, tucked up in the garage next to the Stratos replica where it'll be for a while to come!
Where to start?
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For reliable use a Cometic MLS Head Gasket with new bolts or better the ARP Studs. There is plenty to read on here about it. Also beware cheap spec cam box base gaskets that leak even from name brands. And finally oil seals should be late Fiat spec not raw metal outer cheapies. On valve stem oils seals the turbo spec type are made of a better material to last longer.
Your clutch will be 228 8V Integrale pattern.
Enjoy
Eric
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Started at the back today, had two days of nightmares trying to sort out a failed (15 month old) Salamander shower pump, we're washing in the kitchen sink at the moment, no bath!
The idea is to put as many bulky parts on the car to clear shelving space and to add stuff that might take a knock in preference to the paint. Bumpers were fitted before it came home but the rear lights went in (very easy 2 minute job) followed by the trim on the boot lip, full set of clips, no issues, just needed to give the stainless strip a quick polish inside and out. Bolted up perfectly.
Lower strip retrieved from storage. Not having been near the car for about 18 months I wasn't sure if I had enough little X clips for this bit. I was one short and only two with a full complement of pins and body protection tabs but enough broken ones that I could repair the outer X clips by drilling a 3mm hole through the centre and then countersink it with a 6.5mm drill. Got a pair of 3mm stainless bolts and put the threaded end in a Dremel and a rough file to put a countersink on the underside and then file down the remainder of the head so it was flush with the plastic clip. A bit of epoxy glue to stop them moving and then slip them into place and nail it to the car. End trim pieces were a doddle but the captive bolts have been replaced with stainless ones. Looks great!
Tomorrow I hope to complete the boot lid lock and it's mechanism and fit the catch and helper springs. Badges have been dug out of storage and I'll give them a quick clean and repaint the black bits and they should be on at the weekend. Just need to remember where I put the paint code sticker for the underside of the boot. I bought a second one this week for the spare boot lid.
A couple of boxes of Dynamat arrived on Monday - ordered on Sunday afternoon from JustKampers.com it took less than 24 hours to arrive along with a roller, tape and a roll of Dynaliner for the front bulkhead. I'm seriously impressed with that service! It's all been laid flat to get rid of some fold creases and I've got some brown parcel paper to make templates to aid fitting.
i want to put the door sill stainless trims on before getting into the cabin. Floor first and then the carpet can go down and I should be able to think about headlining next week and sort out a couple of gallons of Dynax and treat all the box sections.
Busy times ahead!
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Life gets in the way as usual and not as much done as I'd hoped! Still, it's a start and the parts I need to carry on are all here now so it's just a matter of finding time to carry on. Boot floor was cleaned with a tack rag to get rid of what little dust was left and then wiped down with a surface cleaner to ensure no residues were left. A pattern was cut, laid over the first piece of Dynamat and the shape cut out. I'm not cutting out every hole in the sound proofing but enough to allow access into box sections for the Dynax rustproof stage to come. If the hole is not into a box section then it's not covered obviously! It was pretty cold in the garage when the first two pieces went down and I didn't use a heat gun to soften them (thanks for the suggestion Tim Heath) but they stuck down pretty well and even adhered to the dips nicely.
Before:
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And after! I did manage to finish off installing the stainless trims, the boot lock and latch and the badges need a second coat of paint (and maybe a better 2000 badge) but here is the result:
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I also fitted the paint code sticker I'd bought from Italy a while back. The second one arrived today which prompted that! The second one is destined for the bespoilered boot lid.
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Lighting.... The back end has been finished for a while with repainted reflectors and LED bulbs fitted. I really must try and connect some up to see how they look.... I need to get a couple of bulbs for the side repeaters but I've been struggling with the headlights for a while. None of the ones I've got are right or really serviceable. I bought a couple of H1 units at the NEC last year, price was good, Carellos, but likely for the early Saloon and not Coupe. So the search continues.
I'm spoilt by the quality of light the Alfa 159 had (BiXenons) and the quantity on the Stratos (sheer weight of numbers & wattage) but the little Panda is pathetic in comparison. The lights on the Skoda are probably the best of the lot. And I suspect the Panda is a step up from the Beta...
So, I've started looking at alternatives but there is so much crap out there that just doesn't look right. The only thing I've found so far is from an Australian company called Banging' Headlights who have a couple of products that may well do the job. The lights use an LED bulb so are just going to be brighter, the lenses are glass instead of plastic, have a fluted design and are E marked and legal in the UK plus they do RHD and LHD options. That's good to know! There are two basic types available in 5.75 inches and should build into the Beta headlight bowls very easily. The first is the "Traditional" one with a replaceable H4 bulb and the second is the "Restomod" where the bulb isn't replaceable but also comes with a circular Halo light for daytime running that also colour changes to Amber for indicators. And a bigger price tag.
Both types provide dipped and main beam headlights but I think I'd just use the dipped plus main on the outer lamp and main on the inners.
I'm leaning towards the Restomod version at the moment... Change my mind. Go on, I dare you!
https://www.banginheadlights.com/collections/5-75-headlights (https://www.banginheadlights.com/collections/5-75-headlights)
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Hi Guy
Interesting find on the headlights. For me BMW style angle eyes is wrong for the Beta and I am not shy of some modifications. My lights are hoarded NOS SIEMS with just enough extras for my spare set which is not for sale because they are now impossible to replace as far as I know. Some Main Beam units pop up in Italy as do LHD Dipped that might be converted with extreme care.
Eric
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Well the boot soundproofing is done so I thought it's time to start fitting the fuel tank and systems and get some big bits off the shelf and onto the car where they belong. I spent an hour or two cleaning up the green Cavis piping and working out (from photographs) where it all went. Luckily I had 2 sets as the Y piece on the car had broken when dismantling it and some of it was covered in overspray. A donor car filler neck and seal was in better condition than the original so that got used. I looked at the state of the cloth braided hoses and decided nope, not good enough so they're on the shopping list.
Pulled the tank off the shelf with it's new fasteners and slung it up under the boot and tightened it up. So, there are three pipes on the tank. On the right side of the tank I've got the braided rubber hose breather to the spigot on the top of the inlet pipe and the Cavis pipe, via a roll over valve, to the Y piece (the other sides of that connect the filler area drain and the drain out the bottom of the car. Simples. Then there's the return pipe from the engine bay, that's another braided rubber hose. Also simples.
Except there's a feed pipe to the carburettor. And that's in the sender unit. And mine doesn't have the pick up pipe. It's a new old stock sender. For a VX/Ie car with an electric fuel pump and a different pick up. And it was fracking expensive. But not as expensive as the one I've just ordered from France.
Hey ho. Does anyone need a sender unit for a VX/Ie? Sadly it's NOS box went in the bin a few months ago...
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Guy,
Nice progress there,
I'm sure you know, but use R9 or better fuel hose everywhere.
I didn't know this 4 years ago, and found an R6 hose split at the tank end and just
about to shed fuel.
Nigel
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Boot, sides and turrets now sound deadened and I've moved into the cabin. It's taking way longer than expected, I just seem to keep getting interrupted every time I go into the garage this week. I think I'm even going to give the footy a miss this afternoon. Unless I get frustrated with it...
Moved into the cabin this weekend, the main footwells on the drivers side are now covered, hopefully the passenger side will go quicker over the next couple of days leaving only the front bulkhead, rear seat floorpan, front of the rear suspension towers, door inners, rear quarters and roof to line before I can move on to the messy (?) job of spraying Dynax into all the box sections. After I've cleaned up all the rubber bungs I need to stop it seeping out! There's a day involved in that alone.
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And since nobody dissuaded me from buying some sodding expensive headlights I have mugged the credit card and now await a bill from HMRC and a delivery from Australia.
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Good luck with the Headlights and I really sympathize on installing Dynamat. I thought it would never end and it is worse with cheap knock off alternative. The difference it made on the Monte is amazing so worth it in the end.
Eric
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Thanks Eric - I will never know the difference it makes never having experienced this car. I suspect that the induction roar from the twin 40 carbs will be dominant.
Guy
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fyi last week i fitted led bulbs to the std HPE dipped beam lenses and i cannot believe how much difference they've made. Previously the dipped beam lights were hopeless even with high intensity bulbs but now it's like driving a modern car with the added bonus of lower power consumption. The bulbs came with an adaptor so they could be plugged into the std connectors. They have a little cooling fan on the back so i'm struggling to get the dust / water covers over the top but i reckon i can mod them to fit.
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Hopefully the beam pattern with standard headlights is okay? The ones I've bought are (supposedly) street legal and E marked.
A contact I made a few weeks ago had a pile of mixed Beta bits that were offered but no takers. He phoned to say they were on the way to the tip unless I wanted them. Not much usable but if I see anyone asking and it is there the parts are free! Or they will get down to Marks on the next trip South.
A pair of rear seats will get fitted to the car for a while whilst I work on the rustproofing and headlining. I have a funny feeling I will run out of Dynamat... Still got about half the floor, the under rear seat area, rear quarters, doors and front bulkhead/wheel arches to do. I think the one piece I managed to wreck when it folded in on itself will be the one piece I needed to finish the job. Hey ho.
Guy
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The petrol flap saga continues. And I still need one.
No 1 came with the car but was corroded beyond use. I threw it away but it's possible it's still laying on the floor at the bodyshop so I'm going to see if it's still there tomorrow. Might be usable as a pattern...
No 2 came from Greece via eBay and was a new old stock one. It's painted but when we tried to fit it the aperture was bigger than the flap, especially noticeable in the corners.
No 3 came from Felix in South Africa. Parts catalogue said it's suitable but there was a mix up in picking it and it turns out to be the twin of No 2. It's now back in SA.
No 4 was on a Beta Spider with Jim in Farnborough. Right shape but had rot and the hinge mechanism differs to the coupe. So it stayed on the Spider.
No 5 is still on a Beta Coupe at Jims, a HiFi that isn't for breaking. And is the right shape.
No 6 came from Mark. Same shape as No 2 and 3. Oh FFS!
No 7 may come from Mirco Andries in Italy. I've seen a piccy it might be correct. But I'm not sure.
No 8 may also come from Felix once he's compared it to the one I returned and, if the shape differs, I'll have that even if the hinge arrangement is wrong. I can cobble something together from the parts I'll have sometime soon. I hope.
Guy
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So, the grey one sat in the aperture is mine and obviously wrong.
The blue one, with the keys is the right one.
Does anyone have one the same shape as the blue one? Please?
My car is a 1980 built 2 litre Coupe, ZLA828BC1 Chassis if that helps! First UK registration in 1981.
And if anyone can identify what type of Coupe the grey flap should fit I'd be grateful!
Guy
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Well that's a couple of packs of Dynamat used. Lost one sheet when it folded in on itself. No recovery from that mess. Boot completed, floorpan completed and roof completed. I still need to sort out the front bulkhead/wheel arches, speaker/door bins on the sides, inside the doors and inside the rear quarters. Now I'm waiting on another delivery of mats... Probably need half a pack to finish it?
Tim expressed a concern about the longevity of the mats on the underside of the roof in the heat but they're so sticky i think they'll be fine. Especially as there are going to be the four cross bars supporting the headliner too.
Looks like I may have sorted out two filler flaps as well as the gearbox splash panel and a better radiator shroud part that's rusted on mine too. One flap coming from Raul in USA and the other parts from Mirco in Italy. Thank you both!
Guy
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And the roof.
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I put Dynamat on my Monte Roof and it has stayed in place on all the hot trips to Italy even though the car is black. I used Dyna Light on the doors on my Beta Spyder to keep the weight down and still have a solid closing feel.
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And that's it done. Who thought that putting soundproofing material down would be such a long job but it's done. I suspect that I didn't need to fully cover every square inch like I have for it to be effective but that's what I decided to do. The front bulkhead was definitely the trickiest part to do but I got there in the end. Last sections were the insides of the doors (very easy in smaller section) and the rear seat area on the outer wings. I haven't done the underside of the boot lid yet nor the bonnet. I think the heat from the engine would dictate not fitting it?
The rest of this week will be spent cleaning up and fitting rubber bungs so the rustproofing fluid doesn't leak out. Bound to miss a few spots!
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Actually, not done, there's another layer of bulkhead padding to go on top of the Dynamat.
Postie came with a new model for the cabinet. This Laudo Models one is really really nice!
Guy
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Hi Guy,
Careful with the weight of sound proofing on the boot lid or your springs will not cope. Use Dyna light.
Eric
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The petrol flap saga is... over! Bar painting. It's still a bit of a mystery though. The top one is the first one I bought, second is from Mark and are both the same size/shape/hinge arrangement but not for my series (ZLA828BC1) but the bottom one is correct and came from USA from Raul Solis-Dipp after a Facebook appeal. There's another one on the way from Mirco Andries (same Facebook appeal) along with a couple of other parts so I ought to have two to paint now.
The one from Raul came with a plastic opener rather than the lock we're used to here. Fortunately the lock will fit as I prefer that look.
Now I just have to hope the printshop has enough of the paint left that's usable to do a couple of filler flaps and maybe a spare front valance I've also acquired... Spares, if you've got them you'll never need them!
Guy
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I can see the different corner profile on the one
from Raul Dipp-Solis.
Who'd have thought there were differences like this?
Glad you've sorted it Guy.
Nigel
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Who'd have thought there were differences like this?
Nigel
The list is long and distinguished!
Mark Wastnidge
Felix Furtak
Mirco Andries
to name but a few!
I suspect the squarer cornered one is Saloon but need to see one in the car park to compare it to! Is there one on the stand at the NEC next week?
Guy
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Hi Guy
No, but Alex could bring a tracing of his.
Peter
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Alex is going to bring a brass rubbing of the Saloon petrol flap to the NEC for comparison so I'll know soon. I hope.
In other news another correct one landed today from Mirco Andries in Italy along with the inner splash guard (from the inner wing to subframe) and a right side radiator shroud in way better condition than the rusty one I got with the car.
Today I dropped off the two petrol flaps and a spare front valance to the paint shop so that they can work their magic. No real rush but it'll be nice to have them done and back. They have enough of the original paint left to do the lot. Phew.
So, for the rest of today it's new clutch slave cylinder time for the Stratos replica....
Guy
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And the latest petrol flap from Felix in South Africa is the correct shape but the edges aren't fully turned over and it has the wrong hinges on it. This is for an early Spider (I've seen one on a brown dash car that's identical) and possibly early Coupe too.
The wrong shaped ones have been compared to a "brass rubbing" that Alex kindly took off his Berlina for comparison and they are identical shapes. The one Mark sent will be returned marked Saloon/Berlina!
Guy
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TaDah!
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I may have a use for that spider one!
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Let me work out how much it owes me..... Hundreds probably ;D ;D
Seriously though, it's of limited use to me so I'm happy to pass it on to you for say £20 plus P&P? It cost more than that but I think that's a fair price?
Guy
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email sent!
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Not received yet? it's guymayers@mail.com - did you send it to gmail.com?
Feel free to PM me here, I'll pick it up.
Guy
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Well that's one of the wrong filler flaps off to a new home with Stuart. I have a perfect saloon one painted metallic grey if anyone needs one and one to return to Mark in due course (also for a saloon).
Not much to report so far this week other than cleaning years of crud and underseal off rubber blanking plugs isn't fun but it is coming to an end I think. Worst one (so far) was the oval one underneath the gear lever. I must have spent an hour on that one, working on the best one I had, to get it to a state where I could try to superglue the worst of the cracks in it. Then I found another in the boxes of stuff and that looked even worse but underneath all the baked on underseal it was in great condition except for the topside which was showing paint overspray. No easy shifting that but the flanges all came up uncracked so that one is cleaned an in place now.
I thought I had a decent handbrake cover/gasket but closer inspection shows that needs blasting and powder coating so it's time to put a batch of stuff together again. Everything that should be satin black I think!
Hopefully tomorrow we will get a new garage door fitted so I'm praying the weather is as good as forecast as both cars have to vacate the premises for the day!
Guy
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The car(s) have been out for the day whilst the new garage door went in. Much more secure now, draught proofed and created a little more headroom in the garage too. Marginally brighter too with a clean white surface too. Hadn't realised how dusty the Beta has become after a few weeks in the garage so it'll get a careful dusting this weekend! Happily both cars are back where they belong this evening.
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It's so close... The new garage sectional door is installed and with the car nose into the garage I could start risking it on the mid rise lift. With the original door opening at a much lower height this new door is giving me about 6 inches extra headroom but it was still a squeaky bum moment using it for the first time! The lift has a safety feature with physical locks on the frame to stop it dropping until you press the down button. The issue with that is that, in all but the fully up position, when you push the down button it raises the lift before it comes down again.
So, with the door shut I could raise it bit by bit to check the body wasn't going to hit the RSJ or the joists and I eventually got it up to full height and there's plenty of clearance on the RSJ and joists.
However, with the garage door open it's too close for comfort. There are hinges along the panels of the door and it looks like one of those will just catch the roof if the car/lift is at full height. There's less than 1cm in it so I'll have to see if the hinge can be modified or moved slightly. The other slight worry will then be if I modify that hinge will the actual door foul the bow of the roof? Solution for the time being will be to switch off the garage door power supply when the lift is fully up. And get a warning sign made to ensure I Switch the door power off before raising the lift.
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Even with the screen in (whenever) there's no risk of it hitting the joist. Luckily for me, when the built the garage, the joist isn't quite central in the roof!
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And plenty of clearance on the roof too. With the garage door shut!
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The car is currently breathing off the vapours from the Dynax S50 - with a couple more tubes on the way to complete the job - I hadn't appreciated how many box sections there are to find, probably missed a couple too, mainly the sills at the moment!
So, on to other stuff today. I'm working on the headliner and A/B/C pillar trims. I got the headliner with the replacement roof section complete with tensioning bows. The original is being used as a pattern and I've decided to do it in black Alcantara. Then I realised I hadn't prepped the parts, found the bag with the front/rear retaining straps that clip over the first and last bows and they needed a wire brushing and a couple of coats of paint. Why they should rust is beyond me - they were plated from the factory but i guess moisture must get in and wick along the headlining and bows (which are also rusty!). Topcoat next!
It'll be time to drag the sewing machine out this week. Time to learn a new skill.
Guy
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Headlining pulled out of storage this afternoon ready to start the stitchery stuff. Except that's delayed for a day or two. I tried to pull the bows out of their pockets but nothing doing. In the end i just cut them out and it was immediately obvious why they wouldn't pull out. There is rust. What a surprise.... Out with the wire brush and then KuRust the remains which still have a lot of springiness left in them, certainly enough to do the job. The only points not corroded were the ends that sit in the plastic sockets in the body shell. Zero protection on this steel, not even plated. They'll get a coat or two of red oxide and a topcoat before reassembly. Probably totally unnecessary overkill...
Guy
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And yes, that raggedy diagonal line in the last picture is a roof bow. Should have adjusted the contrast a lot.... Soz!
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Be interested in how you get on with that lift... I have the headroom in my garage for one but couldn't convince myself that a half height one would be worth it, particularly as a lot of them seem to attract poor reviews on the quality side!
Been deferring it as a house purchase with a double garage is on the horizon but it's tempting!
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It's almost perfect Chris. This one will lift to full height within the garage without risk of fouling anywhere. So long as the lift is in the correct position on the floor. The only issue is that a row of hinges on the sectional door might foul the roof at full height. So that merely needs a little care - switch off the door when the lift is at full height.
The lift is the type that doesn't have the two platforms linked together at the top. This allows me access underneath to brake lines, fuel systems and exhaust systems. The ramps at either end can be fixed in the up position to lengthen the bed if needed. Or even removed and the hinges are held in place with circlips.
Whilst it's not the cheapest lift on the market at circa £2k it's pretty flexible and will allow engine installation from below which is a big plus for me. I may need to remove the bonnet for that though so I can see what's happening clearly. Once the project is done I will probably dispose of it, if you check eBay and Facebook Marketplace these things hold their value pretty well. Oddly I've held onto a hydraulic engine crane for longer than usual at the moment. I probably ought to be rid of that but I know I need one soon to do an engine swap on the Stratos. The mid rise lift is useless for that!
The last place we had only had a single garage but it was fairly tall. I managed to get a 4 post lift in there and that allowed two Stratos to be stored. Or a Stratos and a Fiat 124 Spider. But it was so tight just moving around cars was impractical let alone working on one!
Guy
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And if anyone wants a (limited edition) model of my car....
https://otto-models.com/en/special-sale-g088/1178-lancia-stratos-gr-4-san-remo-1978-g088.html?
Yes, they used pictures of it in their publicity.... Albeit it in an earlier guise!
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It's almost perfect Chris. This one will lift to full height within the garage without risk of fouling anywhere. So long as the lift is in the correct position on the floor. The only issue is that a row of hinges on the sectional door might foul the roof at full height. So that merely needs a little care - switch off the door when the lift is at full height.
The lift is the type that doesn't have the two platforms linked together at the top. This allows me access underneath to brake lines, fuel systems and exhaust systems. The ramps at either end can be fixed in the up position to lengthen the bed if needed. Or even removed and the hinges are held in place with circlips.
Whilst it's not the cheapest lift on the market at circa £2k it's pretty flexible and will allow engine installation from below which is a big plus for me. I may need to remove the bonnet for that though so I can see what's happening clearly. Once the project is done I will probably dispose of it, if you check eBay and Facebook Marketplace these things hold their value pretty well. Oddly I've held onto a hydraulic engine crane for longer than usual at the moment. I probably ought to be rid of that but I know I need one soon to do an engine swap on the Stratos. The mid rise lift is useless for that!
The last place we had only had a single garage but it was fairly tall. I managed to get a 4 post lift in there and that allowed two Stratos to be stored. Or a Stratos and a Fiat 124 Spider. But it was so tight just moving around cars was impractical let alone working on one!
Guy
Intriguing... my garage has a high roof and its a roller door so no sectional issues.
If we end up staying put I can see this being a thing!
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The lift isn't nailed down Chris, it can be as there are holes in the baseplate for anchor bolts though. It comes with a set of removable wheels, you raise the lift to attach the rear ones (they slide onto brackets welded to the lower crossbeam that rotates as it lifts. The front has a single bracket that also slides on and it has a towing type socket that accepts a wheeled lever to raise the front end. Once they're all on it can be moved around the garage floor very easily. It only moves once fully lowered though. So, even if you moved house you could take it with you but the whole thing is not something you can lift without some serious muscle. It's big, heavy and unwieldy and the ground clearance with the wheels attached is very low, you couldn't drag it up onto a trailer. I think you'd need a few very strong mates, some lifting strops and/or an engine crane or and RSJ in the roof. Ideally something like pallet truck or a forklift once you've got it onto a pallet...
Guy
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Headliner Progress! The headliner bows have been painted and the covers stitched up using the £20 Aldi sewing machine, not too difficult to use as it turns out but not heavy duty for the final task. The headliner itself has had 4 ribs sewn into it using the original as a pattern and just needs the bow pockets attaching. That'll be a job done by hand. Then it can be installed in the car where the final trimming can be done and it can be glued in place, a ton of Bulldog clamps will keep everything in place. I'm going to use the same material to cover the plastic trims on the A, B and C pillars.
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And the flip side that'll be visible once installed!
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I have no idea why it appears to have some brownish marks on it in the photo? They're not there on close inspection!
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I have no idea why it appears to have some brownish marks on it in the photo? They're not there on close inspection!
It will be caused by the built in filters on you camera.
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Must be Neil, iPhone! Scared the crap out of me for a minute!
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Christmas arrived today - a shipment from Australia containing a set of four Bangin' Headlights. Beautifully packed, nothing damaged and it got through HM Customs without attracting any extra Duty ::).
I grabbed a set of Carello headlight assemblies plus a Siem trim ring and they are a very nice fit. I'll be using the Carello assemblies as i have a better set of those (I may have scrapped the rough Siem ones..). I will need to find a few fixing screws as it looks like the assembly will protrude about 5mm further away from the bowl. I can live with that. The Carello lights have the plastic backing cup and there is enough room in there for the back of the headlight projector too. Only slight concern will be heat so it may be wise to run without these for added ventilation.
Picture attached with the trim rings fitted, top is Carello and bottom Siem.
Guy
Alex, the three little bobbles on the headlights don't foul the trim rings!
I may have to wire up a headlight this weekend and see what they're like compared to a standard headlight!
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Ignore the comment about the Siem rim.. I have no idea what the lower one in the last picture is off! I just found a set of reasonable Siem lights and the exposed rim looks like the Carello one but the back is different. The headlight adjustors fit into the clip on the back of the headlights on the Siem ones. The Carello ones fit into slots on the side of the nest.
I may have some new and old headlights available soon for beer tokens... I need to replenish the paint fund as I just put the first scratch on the body. Caught a boot on the door sill edge. Not much but it's deep and there and I know about it. It was always going to happen... Not quite as pissed as I thought I would be. Hey ho.
In other news the headliner is clipped in place and looks good but won't photograph yet! I need to stretch it into it's final position, trim the edges further, fit the grab handles, mirror mount, visors and courtesy light first. I also want to put some foam padding on top of the sound deadening underneath the headliner to give it a better feel. The carpet also went down today, temporarily, it also needs some padding underneath to replace the felt that came out two years ago. I think some closed cell neoprene should do nicely.
Guy
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I like the look of the top one. The rounded lens looks right for the period. I am waiting to see what they look like installed.
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They look great Guy - glad there's no fouling of the bobbles on the rings - it wasn't quite clear to my eyes from the Bangin' Headlights webpage photo. Can't wait to see them fitted up on the car.
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Patience young man! I stripped the headlight assemblies back to their component parts yesterday now that I know it will all go together. They'll be off for powder coating on Tuesday (with a few other bits) so I may get them back towards the weekend. Following week I'm off to Gerrys for a week. I may get a chance to assemble them and do a trial fit soon though. I've ordered some M3 stainless cap head bolts to replace the rotten Phillips head ones that secure the bezel, they need to be 6mm longer. My only slight concern is going to be the plastic headlight surrounds now - how much clearance is there? Will they foul the three tabs on the rings now they're slightly further forward. Time will tell.
Carb to airbox mount rubber/spacers/plate in the post to you this morning Alex!
Guy
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A little progress in the last few days. I bought some closed cell padding, 15mm thick for the headlining to create a pad underneath the Alcantara and that landed this morning. Unfortunately I should have bought 30mm thickness pads.... I've started fitting double layers of it and it's gone very well so far, just the bits infront of the first rib to do and then I can think about a little contact adhesive and final trimming leaving just the pillar covers to contemplate.
The headlight assemblies are being powder coated now, collection on Friday. Some Allen socket screws arrived today and are marginal on length. I think, for the sake of £3, I'll buy some longer ones. Hopefully I'll get a chance to assemble everything on the bench before I go to Gerry's next Monday!
Lastly I dragged out the exhaust heat shield. It was a bit battered and bruised but a little persuasion with some suitable tools has restored it's correct shape. I think. It was also covered in years of crud, underseal, oil and road dirt. A day with a filler spreader carefully removing it all and then a bit of sanding have restored it nicely. I may drag the polishing kit out to get a mirror finish on it and protect that with some lacquer but there are a couple of splits in it that need a slight welding first and a spot that's been rattling on the front pipe to centre clamp that needs more careful attention.
Lastly, a question for those that know!
How thick is the felt padding that sits between the carpet and floorpan?
The carpet is loosely in but it's very "baggy" so I need to replace that too. Another job for the closed cell foam but this will be stuck onto the back of the carpet rather than the floor I think.
Guy
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It's these mats that I'd like to know the thickness of. Obviously I threw these straight in the bin, they fell apart when I removed them and stank! Held a lot of water too....
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Guy, I reckon it was about 15mm. That's roughly what I put
back in mine.
N.
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Headlining and carpets take a step back when shiny stuff arrives... A batch of stuff went off for powder coating this week and they did a great job of it once again.
The strut to slam panel bars took about 5 minutes to install. No surprises there and then it was time to start some headlight reassembly!
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First step is working out which side I want to do - and since the backing plate is handed, but can be flipped upside down, I decided to do the left side. Put the backing plate on the table, identify the mounting holes for the bucket and fit the plastic retainers then screw them in place with some nice shiny stainless self tappers.
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Then fit the plastic plugs for the adjuster rods and the rods themselves, clip the nest into the adjuster rods and fit the tensioning springs.
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Then clean up the retaining rings and fit the headlights into the nest. As you can see they fit very nicely with nothing poking out the back.
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And the plastic covers clip on too!
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And this is where it went tits up. I mounted the unit in the car and it's sitting way too low. I need to remove it fully, have another look at it and see where I've gone wrong. There's no way the surround is going to fit that.
It'll be something simples won't it?
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You haven't put the RH unit upside down on the left side have you?
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I don't think so Stuart - I have three backing plates to build the light units up and they all have the same number stamped on them. There are holes stamped in them to allow the headlight buckets to be assembled either way up so one part does both sides. I suspect it's a panel alignment issue. The valance is slightly off centre as the two upper mounting holes in front of the radiator aren't screwed in and the lower brackets to the subframe are also out of kilter and not attached by the bodyshop. The outer brackets to the wing/inner wing were fitted by the bodyshop and I suspect there is an alignment issue with them pulling the valance in the wrong direction.
Plan for today is to pull the first light unit off and build up the second one. Then I'm going to offer up the headlight surrounds and see if they fit and look correct. If not I'll pull the bumper off and remove the front valance and try to refit it starting at the middle mounts, top and bottom, then the wing joints and then the outer brackets. And if that fails to correct the issue I'll try the second valance I have and pray that fits better! I'd better find my masking tape...
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Had a really close look at the photographs i took before disassembly and built up another left side unit and swapped them over. I think I had the buckets mixed up for high and low beams. The second unit slotted in and there's more clearance now, enough to get the trim on, it's not fully home yet but will go in once the valance is properly nailed down and the plastic cups fitted to receive the tags.
Phew.
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And the more observant of you will notice that the grille is making an appearance! in the photo above.
Took the first assembly attempt apart, flipped the mounting panel over, popped the plastic plugs out and reassembled with the correct bowl position and fitted the new lights and dropped it in, trim slides over it and will also drop into position with a little persuasion once the receivers are put into the valance, grille looks like a great fit too.
The plastic is now all off the car until the end of the build. One thing I hadn't thought about until this morning is that the Bangin Headlights have an indicator function built in but no sidelight. I think I might use these and dispense with the one in the bumper which will give me a chance to fit a fully clear lens into the bumper and double up on the sidelight bulbs. If I can find any that is.
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And to cap off the headlights I have found the missing covers this afternoon lurking in another box which raises a small query! There are two types with different number inside. I have a set of 4 with the tag at the top to squeeze to remove the cap easily whenever needed and a pair without the tag. At first glance I assumed the tables ones were merely broken but they never had the tag on them. So, a question! Should I be using 4 with tags or 2 with and 2 without and if it's a mixture, which is the inner and which the outer? And does it matter! All these, and more daft questions to come as the rebuild continues!
Guy
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Hi Guy
Never seen the tagless ones. Do your bowls have the required indent to accept the tags?
Peter
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Here's a picture of the two types Peter. It wasn't until I checked the part number cast onto the inside that I looked more closely at the two "broken" ones and realised they are meant to be like that, no jagged edges on them and absolutely identical!
And yes, my headlights have the recesses for the clips but both types fit.
Guy
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Hi Guy
Ok, understand the difference. The one just clips on and off without the extra part to release it.
No idea why they would change it.
Peter
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Back from another trip to Gerry's for a week when nothing got done on the Beta I'm home and recovered (a little) and have a week or two to crack on with the car.
Today I did what I'd been dreading since sewing the headliner and I trimmed the edges to fit properly. There was a LOT of head scratching as I pondered how to trim the plastic covers on the A, B, and C posts with the Alcantara I've used. The B posts were simple. But there are some double compound curves on the top corners of the screens but this proved impossible to achieve so that idea has gone into the bin and they'll just go back in as Lancia designed them.
I've still got the grab handle, mirror, sun visors and interior light to fit (I am contemplating a light delete) but those will fit pretty easily. I just need to trim the sun visors. And that'll mean stripping the exisiting covers off to reverse engineer them!
The next job I'm contemplating is refitting the stainless steel trims. Lots of masking and padding needed for the gutter trim and what are the chances of the screw holes lining up? I'll probably rely on some Sikaflex instead. Side windows just need a clean and screwing in place but I'm sweating the door trims!
The two pieces of trim around the frame of the door which are a very tight fit over newly painted surfaces. So, I'm looking for advice on those that have achieved this without damaging the paintwork! Do you fit it by putting the trim over the outer edge and then forcing it over the inner edge? The vertical one has to go on first as the top one clips over it. Next, the outer door capping - should they have plastic end stops? I'll need to reattach the glass wipers as the spot welds have let go but I think I'll try Sikaflex for this.
Guy
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Guy,
That's quite a list....
I refitted the gutter trims after I had my roof wrapped and found them easy to do.
All the screws lined up perfectly, although mine are in 2 halves with a joining clip.
I recently retrimmed the sun visors. Stripping reveals a fairly stiff wire frame and a device to
allow tension on the swivel. This bit is prone to partially fracturing, but doesn't seem to affect
the function. I dispensed with the foam and used a cardboard inner to which I glued the leather
on one side then folded it over the frame. Difficult to describe but happy with the results.
Does the alcantara have any stretch? Even a small amount is often sufficient to form it over
compound curves, even with compression in places, using contact adhesive in the process.
Nigel
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Hopefully the holes will line up but if using sikafkex be sparing otherwise they'll be impossible to remove without damage.
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Thanks chaps! I mention the gutter hole alignment as I don't know if the gutter trim was made offsite and came in predrilled or if this was done on the production line? If you check out page 1 post 1 of this thread there's a picture of several bits of trim including the gutters and later on, the car as it arrived, guttlerless. The gutter trims I got from Bristol have never been formally introduced to the car let alone screwed together.. I also suspect, that if the holes do align, that said holes will be full of the paint from dipping which is rock hard. I know I haven't got a tap that small and I don't know if the little screws are hard enough to self tap!
The Alcantara I've got is the real deal and it has some stretch in it. There's enough to cope with the curves on a Stratos dash binnacle but not the curves on the tops of the plastic trims for the A & C pillars where they meet the plastic retaining strips across the screens. They turn 90 degrees inwards whilst having a tubular shape. I could have them flock coated but I prefer the finish to match either the headliner or the dash texture. Standard it is.
The visors I have are not a pair, they are the same material but one is noticeably thicker and one is still in the bag! Never fitted! I might leave this pair alone and see if Mark has a pair at the open day. Condition is irrelevant for this task really. Looking at them I think there is a stitched seam on three sides with the top one having the material folded back on itself to form a tube on each side that can then be stitched together to create an invisible seam once the thread is drawn tight. It may be a job that gets given to a seamstress or car trimmer if my attempt fails!
Guy
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I think the screw holes may line up! They're countersunk in the guttering that I've just spent a morning polishing minor scratches out of, removing the rubber mastic sealant and carefully removing some white over sprayed paint from. I suspect the shells were drilled on the production line once they were fitted.
A bit of research and I've ordered some Sikalastomer 710 sealant to replace what was there originally and protect the panel joints the gutter clips over. That should be here tomorrow but a trial fit shows it'll slip on without too much trouble and then I'll find out if it does line up properly. I will have another morning's work repeating the clean and polish routine on the passenger side, clipping in the NOS end trims I got from Felix in SA and fitting them both. For the rest of today I think I'll see if I can extract the rear side windows and clean them up ready to fit.
Guy
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I think I found my two original windows (because they have the screws attached to the levers... as well as another pair and an odd glass. A quick inspection of the two right side ones resulted in the original one being discarded due to a lot of scratches on the glass. The second frame had a number of small scratches in the stainless surround but they polished out satisfactorily. What I did find odd was that every frame's inner surface, where it closes against the rubber, was heavily scratched over most of the surface. I assume this is to aid sealing? Has anyone else noticed this? It took longer than expected to clean up so I haven't got round to the left side yet! Tomorrow is another day! I suspect my car is going to end up with a variety of glass manufacturers to get the best set!
Guy
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Evidence of Fiat's involvement or accountants clamping down? (sorry!)
Today I've been cleaning out the mastic on the passenger side gutter trim and rear window frame/glass and in doing so I picked the best frame with the best glass and intended to use the best window closing clamps/hinge mechanisms. I've got 3 chromed ones and two black painted ones. The black ones aren't in the best condition and could do with a respray but I prefer the chromed (more expensive) finish which matches the stainless polished surround rather than the last black frames.
What surprised me was the difference between the two types of assemblies. I know the chunky ones are from my car as there's only one of the slim type but that looks a lot cheaper than the ones I've settled on. The only clue to age I have is that the window the slim type came from had "injection" etched on the glass.
Anyone else seen this?
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Not sure when it started/changed but my 1976 car has the skinny ones.
Mark
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Not sure when it started/changed but my 1976 car has the skinny ones.
Mark
Do you want a spare?
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Not sure when it started/changed but my 1976 car has the skinny ones.
Mark
I wonder if Peter's HPE also has the skinny version. I don't recall seeing these thinner
ones before. I suspect the Coupes and HPE's had the same mechanism.
Nigel
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I can look when I get back from France. I have the early original windows and two sets of later stainless surround ones.
Peter
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Successful morning today. Found the end stop and clipped in place, final clean of the channel in the guttering and filled with Sikalastomer butyl rubber sealant, pushed into place and started searching for screw holes. I was a millimetre or so out of alignment but found one hole above the door using a cocktail stick and then a steel scriber which gave me the little leverage needed to ease the gutter forward. One screw in straight away followed by 7 more. The 9th went AWOL on the garage floor but I can't manage to find the relevant hole for it at the moment. I think the threads are gunged up with paint so I may have to resort to ignoring it or drilling it out...
Right side window also went in without too much trouble save for a disappearing rubber gasket on the through window bolt. It's in the goop in the sill I think.... Luckily I have a spare one! I think I'll look for the rear quarter vent trim to give that a nice "finished" look next. I may have to consider moving the car outside to do the passenger side later today. I hope that the screws on that side line up too!
Guy
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The picture above looks amazing. Close ups of newly sprayed cars with stainless trim looks so good.
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Thanks - I think I prefer the earlier polished stainless steel to the later painted stainless steel.
Passenger side went together but not as well as the drivers side. I found two screw holes aligned on the A pillar but had to re-drill the remaining 7 with a 1.5mm drill and a steady hand to stop it punching through and snapping. The screws are lubricated with Dynax and all bit nicely. The rear window dropped into place too but the quarter trim has a crack in it revealed by cleaning. It'll do for now I think but I'll find a better one in the future. Could also do with the plastic plugs to protect the paint before pushing the vent into place.
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Jobs for the coming week are to polish up the door trims and fit them along with Sikaflexing the door capping window rubber strips back on. I need to look at fixing methods as I want to avoid scratching the paint underneath them. I've had a look at the door frame trims and I seem to have acquired several sets during the build but the original ones seem to be the straightest and have a subtly different profile to the others. They have a curved profile where they fit over the frame whereas all the others have a sharp edge that looks like it just wants to bite into the paint. I hope that the curved originals will simply pop into place with a little lubrication from some rust proofing spray that I plan to apply and let partially dry first. I also seem to have a full complement of the black trims that fit on the lower ends of the trims. After that it'll be time to start building up the door mechanisms and see if I can persuade the dormant lift motors back into life! The door handles need cleaning (mask up and water bead blast probably) before they get a fresh coat of paint. I always struggled to get the handles out of the doors, the trick appears to be to remove the lock mechanism first!
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Not quite a day on the car, we didn't get back from Manchester until mid morning and then had a roofer drop by to give us a quote... There's some of the Beta fund redirected!
So this afternoon I was sorting out the door frame trims and looking at the door capping stocks I've acquired trying to work out what to use. Then polishing started and I got the frame trims onto the drivers door quite easily but more of that in the next post!
Here it is! I'm reusing the trims that came with the car, they were the straightest ones I found but there was a lot of overspray that needed T-Cutting off before I could polish them. You'll notice a plastic cover over the top of the door. That's from a later Coupe or HPE, it lines the black trim on the later cars. The earlier style ones scratch the paint when fitted which leads to the inevitable rust. The downside is that the stainless trim underneath the black finish will need a lot more polishing to get it to the same finish. But I have the time to do that. It'll also need the window rubber reattaching. That might involve a little welding as I'm not 100% sure Sikaflex will hold it. If anyone has had success with that please let me know, I really don't want to have to strip the door down in a few months!
Guy
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Now the Geek Bit! Door frame covers - I've found out that there are at least 3 different profiles (this is worse than the fuel flap saga!).
Left to right!
The one that came off my car - there is a channel section to the outside edges that curves away from the door frame just a tad. When refitting this I just clipped the inside edge over the frame and gently persuaded the outside edge to pop over the raised outer bead on the painted door frame. I'd liberally coated both surfaces with Dynax and it just popped on with a little gentle persuasion. Might have a little bruise on the palm of my hand but it was simple enough!
The next one has no return edge, just a sharp edge that looks like the only thing it will do when being refitted is dig into fresh paint. It looks like the only way to fit it back would be to relieve the fold, place it on and use a tool to refold it. Nasty job that will end in tears I'm sure.
The final type is from a late car as it's got the remains of the black finish on it. It's similar to the first but instead of having a a sharp edge it's folded over completely on itself which would probably go back on without damage to fresh paint.
There is another slight difference, the top sections from my car have a gap in the inside edge where the quarter light frame sits that the later one doesn't. No idea why, not sure it matters but now I realise I have another piece of trim to find, polish and fit along with the quarter light itself.
Guy
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Frame surrounds on the passenger door had the final polish and are now fitted, no scratches suffered. Phew. Quarterlight frames polished and door cappings inside and out polished and a glass wipe strip fitted to the drivers door trim ready to fit in the coming days. I thought I'd get the doors built up and glazed this week but then I found a little issue that I can live with but don't want to!!
Rear windows are clear Sicursivs. I have two Sicursiv drivers door drop glasses and a clear Saint Gobain passenger.
So, has anyone got a clear left side Sicursiv drop glass handy? Coupe obviously, happy to swap or buy.
I have a passenger door quarterlight with mirror holes by Saint Gobain in clear glass.
Has anyone got a clear glass Sicursiv with holes they are willing to sell/swap?
I have a drivers door with holes by Sicursiv but it's Climaglass. It has a slight green tint so doesn't match.
Has anyone got a drivers door quartelight, in clear glass, marked Sicursiv with the mirror holes they are willing to sell/swap?
In summary - I'm looking for clear glass, marked Sicursiv, passenger door drop and quarterlight and drivers quarterights with holes! I bet Mark has a ton of this stuff but it's a couple of months to the open day and I'm impatient and willing to travel to collect!
Thanks
Guy
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And another ask - the trims that clip over the doors, inside and out, have a cloth liner (early) or a plastic liner (late) to reduce the chances of scratches happening. I've got 3 plastic ones but could do with a better passenger side outer one and one inner one if anyone has any spares waiting for a purpose!
Thanks
Guy
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Love looking at your build into a lovely bare shell. What state is the interior, do you have Recaro's? I was looking at Delta Intergrale Recaro's and they do look similar and come up a lot more often I am sure
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Hi Mark, thanks for the comments! The interior is from a Beta Volumex Coupe, already re-trimmed in the correct material and ready to bolt into the car when I get to that stage! The carpets in the car are the originals and have cleaned up nicely, the only evident wear is in the rubber mat for the drivers heel pad. Thanks for reminding me, I've been meaning to slide a thin piece of rubber in there through the split, manoeuvre it about and secure it with the Sikaflex that's open/curing now having been used to repair the window scrapers on the door cappings!
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All door cappings fitted now so pending sorting some glass to match everything I've probably done as much of the door build up as I can for now. Handles and latches next to be overhauled I think.
Today was a lovely day so I finished off the exhaust heatshield. It wasn't a pretty sight when I started, a little bent out of shape and covered in crap from years of abuse.... A bit like the spare one I have only worse bar the tears in the spare! A little work soon had it twisted back into shape and a lot of work to remove the crud and clean it up before a light polish. There is one area that I couldn't fix where the exhaust clamp has battered it. That I'll leave as is, I think welding it might be asking too much! Let's call that a little patina!
There were three mounting threads in the floorpan for these when it went back for final dipping, one survived but was so loose it came out as soon as I saw it rattling away! New Rivnuts are needed to secure this I think.
Guy
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I also looked at the rubbers I have for the drop glass channels in the doors. Considering I have sets from at least three cars I'm a little disappointed that none of them are really serviceable. So I've ordered 5 meters of the 13mm wide channel which should do both doors!
https://sealextrusions.com/products/flocked-window-channel
Guy
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I cheated on the exhaust heat shield and made it from modern twin layer formable heat shield sheet. This is very easy to form and is a better heat shield. Pictures on members cars. I did notice the unusual oblong fitting washers which got a sand blast and paint. Keep up the amazing work Guy.
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Oblong fitting washers? Oh bugger. None on the car when I dismantled it so it'll be going together with a sandwich of standard round ones top and bottom with rivnuts through the floorpan into washers above the floorpan. I can see that needing a few pairs of hands to hold everything in place whilst I crush the rivnut. Or the judicious use of masking tape.
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Oblong at each end round in the middle, but in reality you are clamping a light weight item in place. Some large stainless washers and an angle grinder will do nicely.
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Window channel arrived in the post today and it is a perfect fit for the Beta. Hopefully I'll find the 2 door glasses I need in the next few weeks so I can complete the install as report on how good or bad they are but a drop glass slides very smoothly in the felt.
Please se my parts wanted thread!
New felt on the left and original on the right.
Guy
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Hi Guy
Where did you get the window channel from?
Peter
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https://sealextrusions.com/products/flocked-window-channel
Pick the 13mm wide one Peter. I might have to pull out the lift motors and see if they work as I move forward with building up the doors ever so slowly! I hope to find the missing glass at Marks in June unless they turn up here first but I'm hopeful the new felt in the channels will result in less friction to be overcome.
Cheers
Guy
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Hi Guy
Thanks. I know the ones I have are not the best.
Peter
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After all this time and a soft wearing surface I'd be amazed if any were in good condition Peter. Hopefully this may be a partial solution to slow windows?
Slight rest day today and this morning was spend degreasing bits ready for another batch of plating. Or so I thought. I started with the bonnet catches which are particularly cruddy. But underneath all that caked on 40 year old grease they came up really nicely. I may clean up a couple more and pick the best ones, I think the cables will need replacing to the pull handles though. After that I pulled the handbrake mechanism apart and gave the lever a polish as best I could. It's got rust pitting but it'll have to do. The base plate is repainted and the underfloor cover powder coated so that just left the rubber seal to clean (it's great!) and the pulley linkage. The link arm was quite badly bent, no idea why but it's straight enough now and a tap rand down it's length cleanly. It'll go for plating I think. The wheel itself came apart easily enough but was really caked in grease/mud and is heavily corroded. It was only when I got it down to a cleaner state than something started ringing bells. A quick search in the tool draw turned up an identical one in perfect condition, doesn't need plating. I have no idea, absolutely none, where it came from or when but it's been in there forever. Complete mystery but it's going on the car in the next week or three!
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Couple more days and a little progress. Finished off the last of the Dynaxing so that's going off over the next few days, a few parts put to one side to get plated and another pile for powder coating. I fitted the bonnet release mechanism, adjusted it, removed it and put it back in but whatever I did I ended up with the left lever working but not the right one. In the end it all came out and went back in with a couple of additional cable clamps to stop any chance of them slipping. I think it's okay but the grille is going to be the last thing back in and I may rig another pull handle to lift the bonnet when the latch mechs don't release fully... Probably just needs a bit of greasing.
Then it was the wiper assembly. What a pig of a job to get it back in, there must be a knack. I ended up with a small scratch in the scuttle. Hey ho. Won't be the last one. Washer jets went back in too. I will replace the tubing in the coming weeks. Tomorrow we're having roofing work done so I doubt I'll get much done! Next task is to disassemble the heater box and give it a good clean and refurb. The matrix will be taken for checking and recoring (along with the radiator) but the heater box can go back in. I've got multiple fixings plated but only two of them had the rubber cushioning inserts so I'll need to cobble something else together for the other two.
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Guy, a tip,
I'd wait and put the completed heater box in. It's surrounded with clips,
some of which you can't get to at the front.
Nigel
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Thanks for the tip Nigel, I'll have a look at that but the first install is a dry run, I need it in place so I can think about routes for a wiring loom, that means the dash needs to go in too plus a few other minor bits. I intend to talk to a company called Simtek at the Malvern Kit Car Show in a couple of weeks with a view to getting a special loom made. I do have a memory of replacing a heater matrix on my '78 HPE (brown dash) and doing it by separating the housing upper and lower halves. With the interior out of the car I suspect it's possible to get to the clips between the housing and the bulkhead. Time will tell!
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A week away at Gerry's, a trip to BetaBoyz to collect stuff and a week getting Hawk Car's accounts finalised and off to the accountants equals bugger all time spent on the car recently. I'd struggle with the B post door catches and thought I' pick up a tap at the Malvern Kit Car Show but nothing doing so it was plan B and a spare one was removed from scrap at Marks, brought home, threads wire brushed and then a few slots cut in to make a tap, that cleaned out the E-Coat paint out of the threads, both latch pins now back where they belong!
Unfortunately a search of Marks place didn't find any clear glass quarter lights with mirror holes by Sicursiv so I'm back to plan C with those now (carry on looking for reasonably priced ones!) but I did find a Sicursiv drop glass for the correct side in clear so that's sorted now.
And when I got home there was an intriguing box waiting for me - original 1970's Lancia packaging!
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Well it was a little box really... but the contents were very welcome given the state of my car's original servo! I was going to dismantle, clean, de-rust, plate and reassemble but this one turned up so I bought it and bolted it in for a little bit of progress this week. Other than another batch of stuff off for powder coating and prepping more for plating there's not much to report. Must try harder this coming week!
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Thought I’d find the answer in the Haynes Manual….
Anybody know what the clearance between the brake servo pushrod and master cylinder socket end should be?
Cheers
Guy
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No idea on a value, but probably very small gap to allow for expansion in hot weather, the main adjustment is normally that long rod which goes across the bulkhead from memory?
Peter
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Thanks Peter, yes, I think that any slack can be taken up by the cross bulkhead adjustable rod, I'd forgotten that bit and may be assembling it in the coming days. I ask as I'd had an issue on a Fiat 124 Spider years ago with slight contact causing dragging brakes to eventually bring the car to a halt... Don't want to repeat that mistake!
Onwards. Having started at the servo/master cylinder end I thought I'd go to the other end of the car and install the balance compensator and the associated linkage. Dragged the new one out and it was soon apparent that it was incomplete and there are other issues! Luckily I hadn't thrown the original one out so that provided the missing bush and retaining bracket. Then I struggled to work out how to assemble it all. A bit of crawling around under the car didn't help so i had to refer to good old Haynes. Then the penny dropped! The rubber boot that came with new compensator wasn't right. Lucking the old one wasn't split and half an hour with some white spirit softened it up again to the point it was perfectly usable again. All assembled on the bench but then the bushes for the drop link just started disintegrating. Probably okay once installed but I'm going to start again with a stainless insert and plastic tube instead. Ten minutes back under the car and it's all in place bar the drop link that I'll finish tomorrow.
More time lost running back to the powder coaters with a couple more bits I'd forgotten needed doing and then a therapuetic hour or so cleaning up a rubber scuttle gasket I picked up from Mark over a week ago. Now it's as good as I'll find and better that the chewed one I had before!
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Apologies for that picture - not sure what I've done wrong other than using a WIndows machine instead of the MacBook I'm familiar with - I think that's dying a slow death now....
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Try once more
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I hate brake pipes. Two days on it so far and one left to make and install. So far I've only managed to make one of them too short and had to start again, I'm so glad I removed the original ones and kept them as patterns! It made it so much easier to bend them into the correct positions but there is a downside - one of them still contained some old fluid which luckily landed on me rather than the paintwork!. I've got a few unions and copper washers on the way so I may be able to connect the rear callipers and handbrake in the coming days. Whilst I'm in the mood to work with pipes I think it's time to consider the fuel lines. Unfortunately I've just realised that the GC motor hasn't got a mechanical fuel pump for the twin 40's... So there's a dilemma. Do I bother running the return pipe to the tank now or not? If I don't run it that may solve an issue I have with broken pipe clips.... I should really replace the lot, I wonder if Car Builder Solutions stock anything suitable that's a direct replacement. I'm not going to be drilling new holes in this car! I bought a bag of 50 screw in unions for the job. I think that's about twice as many as I needed. They must have been cheap! No photos today - it's not tidy enough and not all clipped down. I really must remember to go around the pipework and tighten them all down in the next few days.
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Anyone with a Coupe and Jack mounting brackets available to give me a measurement?
The bracket underneath the left rear light is bolted into the right place but as the panel it sits on had to be fabricated I don’t have any reference holes as to where I need to drill for the inner bracket. Bugger. Freshly painted and Dynaxed and I have to drill it. Anyhoo, can someone give the measurement between the hole centres for the two nearest ones on each bracket so I can position the second one correctly please?
Thankfully the pair I retrieved from the dead VX Coupe are Marks two weeks ago cleaned up nicely and are now powder coated so should last a while!
Guy
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And how should the jack be stowed? Top nearest the outside of the car or the middle? Lift pin on the top side of the jack I assume?
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I have no jack, or know where to store it.
When you are done pictures please 8)
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If you can elaborate what you are looking for I think I have all the jacking points still in situ.
The brake compensator, can they be rebuilt? My one looks a little funky
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Hi Mark
On the rear brake compensator, just buy a new one, they are pretty cheap not worth messing with in my view, used on a wide range of cars from memory.
Peter
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Thank you. If you want details of jacking points etc shout. Everything seems original under my car.
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Yes please Mark - distance between the two closest screws on the two brackets would be appreciated!
When you get a new compensator check that the rubber boot has the correct orientation, keep the old one until you're sure!
Guy
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sorry being thick "Yes please Mark - distance between the two closest screws on the two brackets", I dont quite get this.
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Mark,
He's not referring to jacking points, but to the location of the brackets
in the boot where the actual jack mounts. A photo of yours will help.
BTW Mark, those 4 square flimsy brackets on the sills are not jacking points but were used as support
points on the assembly line.
Msg rcvd!
Nigel
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Thanks Nigel - yes the bracketry within the boot - I'll try to attach a couple of photos but I'm struggling with a dying MacBookPro at the moment so I'm juggling stuff.
Mark, yes, it's the two brackets in the boot. One underneath the left side light and the other towards the centre. Photos will help but the measurement is what I need.
And yes Nigel, the four square brackets underneath the car were for build purposes but on my car, when the sills were opened for repairs Geoff T built in strengthening structures to allow me to use these as jacking points! Inner and outer sills and floorpan are all tied together there now.
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Photos, top one is in the correct position, the screw head to the left is nearer the centre of the car. The second photo shows the other mount but I need a measurement from the screw in the first photo to the nearest hole in the second bracket. Hope it's clear!
Thanks!
Guy
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ahh okay. I dont think I have any of these brackets, and was actually trawling the internet yesterday trying to understand whats missing. Sorry for the confusion. I might still have mounting holes. I will try and figure out
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Thank you Guy. I now have a jack to tick off my list ;D
I think they use toothpaste tube tops here?!
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I might be able to provide two replacement thumbscrews.
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If not then should have some of those in one of my boxes.
Peter
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I believe there is also a bracket somewhere on the floor to hold the warning triangle? Can't show you where as my own car is, as always, in bits.
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Conscious i am someone elses blog, but please on the kn0bs :-)
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No problem Mark - send me an email with your address and I'll drop them in the post to you.
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I believe there is also a bracket somewhere on the floor to hold the warning triangle? Can't show you where as my own car is, as always, in bits.
That's an awful thing to say! I have neither the bracket, the warning triangle nor the holes in the floor for any of said bracketry. Photographic proof or it never existed. (Anyone with said bracketry and triangle please let me know! Beer tokens waiting!)
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Ah the warning triangle.....
Normal one say £10, Lancia original were going for silly money when I tried to find one!
I think it was an option from memory
Peter
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Ah the warning triangle.....
Normal one say £10, Lancia original we're going for silly money when I tried to find one!
I think it was an option from memory
Peter
It's just a standard style triangle with Lancia embossed on the case, not really essential but nice to have
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Ah the warning triangle.....
Normal one say £10, Lancia original we're going for silly money when I tried to find one!
I think it was an option from memory
Peter
It's just a standard style triangle with Lancia embossed on the case, not really essential but nice to have
A bit like the torch then? Well, I have one of those but the case is seized...
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Here is a Lancia triangle on EBay in Italy, £104 anyone.....
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/267102386764
Peter
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:)
I have one but fine its not an expensive Lancia one. So where did it go?
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:)
I have one but fine its not an expensive Lancia one. So where did it go?
Good question I need to find out if I imagined the whole thing😂 I remember researching a clip that we found though and that's what it was for! I'll get back to you. In had a look in my boot but it is completely stripped out. It's so long since I did anything to the car that my mind is blurred. Lancia variations are so confusing!
Your boot floor looks fantastic and original by the way!
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I think it's the item marked in red, fitted on or near the back panel? Might be wrong it's so long since I actually worked on the Beta that my memory is getting vague at best and probably I shouldn't comment on stuff any more 😂
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I think I have the nylon mounting point.
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Okay, that's a bracket for something and it's not the jack! Odd how they made brackets to put the jack on the left side on RHD cars and right on LHD cars.
So, that's something else to research further, trace and fit. Or not. I think an ordinary triangle will do at those prices.
Mark, I've found one knurled nut for the rear carpet fixing. I'm sure there will be another floating around the garage waiting to be found. Please email me your address and I'll drop it/them in the post to you.
Guy
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Christmas today - a parcel containing a new Facet Silver Top fuel pump and a Malpassi Filter King. Plus a note from the supplier (FastRoadCars - thanks Nigel) that the pump has to be installed vertically. Which I'd hoped wouldn't be the case, I'd wanted to install it horizontally as per the injection/VX cars. So, lots of head scratching aided by dry fitting the fuel tank and it's all a little tight under there but I've managed to get a temporary install in a near vertical position. Downside was that I had to drill the freshly painted crossmember but I can live with that. I'll be a final fit when a pair of thinner rubber mounting bobbins arrive, the 20mm ones supplied leave the inlet barb too close to the filler pipe underneath the back of the car.
Photo attached to show where it is but the fuel tank is now nailed in place permanently with all the fuel hoses attached and routed. I've used DIN 93379 braided hose to keep it looking original, research shows it's R9 standard.
Last steps on the fuel tank will be connecting the rubber joiner for the filler neck and a couple of jubilee clips and that's done until I need to sort electrical connections.
Tomorrow will see me continuing the install of the Filter King. i've seen installations with the Filter King hung off the underside of the strut tower to slam panel support but I've decided that I'm going to fit it to the back of the slam panel behind the headlights. I think it'll fit there and still allow access to the headlight adjusters. Once it's in place the last job will be running the hard fuel line from front to rear. Unfortunately the original one isn't going to be much of a pattern part as the new one will be terminating further down the inner wing than the original and I might route it beneath the inner wing box section rather than on top.
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Guy,
Photo tricky to interpret, but I'd move the pump inboard and up to avoid
possible interference with suspension parts. A fabricated bracket would be needed though.
Nigel
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It is a very slight concern Nigel but I'm reasonably confident that it'll clear the suspension on compression. I will be keeping a very close eye on it! Trouble is, there really isn't much choice with this pump for the installation. If it fouls at all I'll have to resort to another type but I'm not sure if the cube type Facets will fit or if an injection/VX type will be too powerful for the Filter King.
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After Nigels comments on the pump position I revisited today and decided that the installation would likely get fouled on full compression of the rear suspension by the rear transverse arm. Well, cannot have that happening can we!
So I looked into positioning the pump at the front of the car but that's a non starter so the only other option was to fit a cube type pump or reposition the new Silver top. So, with a bit of head scratching I decided to move it 90 degrees and make a substantial bracket from some aluminium channel I had lying around. The first attempt didn't move it far enough so it needed a filler plate to make sure it cleared both the suspension arm's arc of travel and didn't foul (or come close) to hitting the flange on the fuel tank or the filler pipe. Experiments with thinner bobbins were a waste of time, they had too much flex so the ones supplied with the kit were installed even though that meant installing the bracketry first and then the pump/bobbins. And a word to the wise, don't be tempted to use Nyloc nuts on the bobbins, it can tear the stud loose within the bobbin. Ask me how I know....... That was a pig to change when it started rotating. Lockwasher and standard nut. And I hate how the earth lead is red and power lead black. That could go so wrong!
First and second photos shows (just) a plumb line off the edge of the pump closest to the transverse arm, there's good clearance! Last one the dry assembly on the bench. Tomorrow I hope to run the feed pipe to the front, clip it in place and connect the pipes to the pump and install the Filter King. Then it's off to see Gerry again for a week!
Guy
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Is this what others have done before?
Mark
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Pass Mark! My car will have a set of Twin 40 Dell o’rtos. That needs a different fuel system with no mechanical pump and no return line. It uses pressure regulator to keep the supply right.
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Nice bracketry Guy!
And appears to be in a much better position.
Avoid the cube variety, I found it very noisy.
Nigel
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Photo overload to coming...
First parts reattached were the rear crossmember that was preassembled with two sets of adjustable arms set to the same lengths left and right, front and back. All with Marks polybushes of course!
I have a couple questions Guy, what length should the adjustable transverse links be CtC? Obv I will look into proper four wheel tracking as soon as I can.
Re: front wishbone bushes - my car didnt have the original bushes, they were hand made, when I fitted Betaboyz bushes the subframe supports are flexing in on one side when I torque to 59nm, any thoughts?
Mark
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There are two types of rear transverse arms, a pressed steel one that's not adjustable and a tubular one with rod ends (left and right threads). When I put mine together I opted to go for a full set of the adjustable ones as they look stronger. Obviously the adjustment is there to allow you to set up the tracking properly. On my car I have merely set the length of all four to the length of the pressed steel ones and will deal with the tracking adjustment later.
On the front wishbones I didn't notice any flexing of the subframe or mountings to the body but I have yet to torque everything properly. That will be done methodically once the drivetrain is installed and suspension set up. For the meantime the geometry is line of sight such that the car can be rolled around easily enough.
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FYI there is also a tubular fixed length one which came on the earlier cars. Normally you have a fixed and variable length one on each side.
Peter
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FYI there is also a tubular fixed length one which came on the earlier cars. Normally you have a fixed and variable length one on each side.
Peter
Every day is a school day!
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And that's it for another week. Pump installed, Filter King installed, Pipework run from the front to the back, clipped in place and not fouling/rubbing anywhere. Just the final bends to sort out at the pump end and two short rubber pipes to route and the fuel system is done bar the connection to the engine. Next week i may get back to glazing and interior work!
Guy
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Ooo I like a pressure gauge on it :-)
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FYI there is also a tubular fixed length one which came on the earlier cars. Normally you have a fixed and variable length one on each side.
Peter
Some cars, series 2 pre facelift I think?, have all four fixed length then a fancy offset bolt system to adjust the rear tracking. All very clever but it LOOKS like there's no adjustment unless you know, it seems to have been abandoned fairly quickly.
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The Pressure gauge is set up only. They are an unnecessary fire risk day to day. You simply replace it with a plug until you want to check for issues.
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Correct Eric, once the engine is singing it's merry tune that will be deleted and the port blanked off. I've just got to find somewhere safe to store the plug between now and them!
Guy
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That made me laugh 8)
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Back from Gerry's and a couple of days on the car. Fuel line completed and connected to the pump. The majority of the generic brake pipe clips turned out to be too loose in the original holes and I wasn't prepared to drill new ones so the old, original clips have been cleaned up and the best of them used instead, lucking, with no return pipe on the tank the tripe ones (which were the most damaged) could be replaced with doubles (5/16 & 3/16). With all the pipework routed I could reattach the steering arms so I can push the car out of the garage and turn it around when the time comes to start building up the passenger door. Maybe next week.
I've also hung the rear exhaust mounts just to get them out of the way. The jack bracketry has been powder coated and is now installed, thank you Mark Ferris for the pointers where it had to live. Sadly it meant drilling two holes in the box section as they weren't reinstated when the shell was restored (because they had been plated over poorly!). The jack now sits, where it belongs, behind the carpet. I noticed a couple of holes in the carpet and one lines up with an existing hole so there must be some retaining plugs to keep it in place. They'll be standard Fiat ones so no panic there! And talking of carpet, an hour or so with the hoover got them looking reasonable but I think the one on the floor will need the attention of a professional valeter to get the stains out. THey're not as bad as they look but it should be better. I've stashed the toolkit on the right side of the boot for now but think it belongs behind the carpet near the jack. It can stay where it is until the right fixings appear.
My memory of the first Beta HPE I had was that the carpet sat on a piece of hardboard. I'd like to do that with the Coupe in time. Should it have one?
Next week I have a couple more bits to drop off for powder coating and some handbrake mechanism parts for plating. Once I get them back the handbrake cable can go on with the cover and the exhaust heatshield. I may even be able to hang the rear and centre sections to get some shelf space back! They will need a coat of barbecue paint first and I've got a tailpipe trim on the way which should slip over the end of the straight pipe I went for. (the Laser variant).
That's it for this week I think. A beer or two is needed next!
Guy
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Guy, re the boot carpet:
Yes, the HPE had a ply base, and I'd do the same on yours. In addition,
the HPE had some firm rubber blocks beneath to fit inside the 'channels' in the floor,
I guess to prevent flexing, but also to minimise rattling.
I suggest marine grade 5/6mm ply coated with something to seal it from moisture.
Outstanding progress.
Nigel
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Thanks Nigel, instead of rubber I might use a little of the bitumen soundproofing pads or the self adhesive foam I've got left. I think a marine grade plywood is a great alternative material and it'll keep the carpet flat - no lumps!
Guy
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"I noticed a couple of holes in the carpet and one lines up with an existing hole so there must be some retaining plugs to keep it in place. They'll be standard Fiat ones so no panic there! "
The little clips you mention, I still have one, I will try to remove it and take some pictures, I need one.
Where the carpet overlaps behind the wheel do you still have the clip that holds the carpet (both sides) in place? I found something that looks right, I need to try it sometime.
Ferris
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Hi Ferris - no, the centre fixing is missing. As was the entire carpet set when I bought the car (if memory serves me right. I managed to get them from a couple of helpful souls on this forum though!
And yes, I'm still looking for the second spare screw for the rear panel, it's wandered off somewhere! If Peter has a couple please send him an email and let him know I'm struggling to find a pair.
Guy
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I may be getting ahead of myself here but having completed the fuel supply system last week I thought it might be wise to ensure that the exhaust system was ready.... That'll just leave the heavy lump in the middle to sort out.
Anyway, I've bought a mild steel Imasaf system for the car, manifold to tailpipe with a Laser type back box. I'm not a fan of the kinked tailpipes so the straight end was the look I was after. Unfortunately the tailpipe is a little plain but an eBay purchase of a stainless steel trim with a nice rolled edge has fixed that. Just needs cutting back a little to the right length and then screwing on. Or maybe welding on. That sounds like a better alternative! I've also bought some barbeque paint to give the system a bit more longevity...
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what a difference! 8)
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Thanks Mark - it needs a little more polishing yet..
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Is it a Darkside item? I follow Darkside quite a bit (previous history with my BiTDI VW van)
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We had a small break in the weather, enough time to put the centre part on stands and give it a coat of BBQ paint, once cured it should give it a little bit of extra protection. Tin said black but it's actually quite a light grey. Maybe that will change with a heat cycle whenever that happens? And if it doesn't it's dark enough underneath the car that it doesn't matter!
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Yes Mark, the stainless tip was from Darkside - first time I've dealt with them, shipping was expensive for a small parcel but the packaging was over the top and the part was a bargain! £18 on my doorstep in all.
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Same treatment for the back box. I suspect that welding on the stainless pipe might damage this finish a little (!) but there's enough in the tin for another coat. I haven't got enough for the front pipe though. I see another trip to the local DIY shop in my not so distant future...
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And today wasn't paint stuff outside weather so time for some mechanical stuff! Replacement screw blocks fitted, the brake lever assembly slotted into place, bolt dropped in from above (if the nut loosens the bolt stays in place) and the nut tightened enough to not quite pinch the pivot and stop free movement. Retaining washer fitted to keep the pivot and servo pushrod in contact, spring washer, washer and circlip in place and checked. Then checked again. Once more for certainty. Cover and gasket cleaned and refitted with the threads tapped out so the bolts go in easy. This side of the bulkhead is almost ready to put the heater box and dash in for a dry run before I think about some modifications there.
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And finally the cover put back where it belongs with the dash bolt in place so I don't lose it! This is the only part that came off the car with original sound proofing felt that's going back on.
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And with the brake servo in place and attached to the pivot lever on the left side of the bulkhead and the steering column/pedal box in place on the right it was time to reconnect the two halves of the mechanism. The actuating rod from the pedal has been released from the ball on the engine bay lever so I could clean out any crud that had accumulated over the years, repack it with fresh grease and refit with the special end fitting adjusted to no play but allowing movement and secured with a new split pin. Next step was to retrieve the cross bulkhead adjustable length rod and fit that. Straightforward except that one of the pins had gone AWOL and it's replacement took an hours digging in spares boxes and then another 20 minutes work with a drill bit held by hand to clear excess powder coating off the inside of the lever to allow it to fit. New split pins installed as a matter of course!
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And that was it for today, next step is some disassembly to check tolerances on the brake system. I don't want the pushrod in the servo resting against the end of the socket on the master cylinder, any contact can cause the exertion of pressure on the pads, a heat build up in the calliper will cause fluid to overheat and boil but the expansion will bring the car to a halt before that can happen. So, I need to remove the master cylinder from the servo and measure the depth from the servo mounting face to the contact point of the piston rod and ensure that the servo actuating rod doesn't protrude too far. On previous Fiats the adjustment is done by slackening a locknut on the servo, adjusting domed head end nut and tightening the locknut. On a Beta this looks to be done with the cross bulkhead pull rod which has an adjustable length with left and right handed clevis rods and locknuts.
So, how to measure said gap? With a little widget I got last week from eBay! I think this was £7 well spent! Even if I only ever use it once! Maybe tomorrow will see how effective it actually is.
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And finally the cover put back where it belongs with the dash bolt in place so I don't lose it! This is the only part that came off the car with original sound proofing felt that's going back on.
OMG I didnt know that was in there :-)
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And that was it for today, next step is some disassembly to check tolerances on the brake system. I don't want the pushrod in the servo resting against the end of the socket on the master cylinder, any contact can cause the exertion of pressure on the pads, a heat build up in the calliper will cause fluid to overheat and boil but the expansion will bring the car to a halt before that can happen. So, I need to remove the master cylinder from the servo and measure the depth from the servo mounting face to the contact point of the piston rod and ensure that the servo actuating rod doesn't protrude too far. On previous Fiats the adjustment is done by slackening a locknut on the servo, adjusting domed head end nut and tightening the locknut. On a Beta this looks to be done with the cross bulkhead pull rod which has an adjustable length with left and right handed clevis rods and locknuts.
So, how to measure said gap? With a little widget I got last week from eBay! I think this was £7 well spent! Even if I only ever use it once! Maybe tomorrow will see how effective it actually is.
I may be wrong but the under dash adjusters on both sides determine the pedal position - at least it did on my VX coupe. But you are right to be concerned re servo / MC as also too long rod from servo will also seal off the fluid return hole leading to brakes being locked on as the fluid cannot return from deactivating the the brakes.
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Thanks Tim, I didn't get near the car yesterday and a blood test today will delay this further! I'll have another look at it but I think the pedal stop position for both brake and clutch should be set first (with the brake light switch in place. This may involve me fitting a seat temporarily to get the pedal heights right. From there it's a matter of adjusting the pull rod length such that there is no contact at the master cylinder at rest which could cause issues.
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Well that was a fun afternoon. First off, you can alter pushrod resting position by moving the brake pedal via the brake light switch but it's a plastic thread on that so I quickly discounted it. The clutch pedal was also much higher than the brake pedal but a bit of investigation found the rubber stop was worn through. I've merely replaced that with a slightly better one and set it level with the brake pedal.
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New pedal pads are in stock awaiting fitment!
Next was removing the master cylinder and reservoir which also involved unscrewing all the pipe unions, none of which are tight yet. It came out easily enough. At this point I realised there was an issue with the tool I'd bought to measure clearances. It fits the servo just fine (and a nice clunk revealed the feet were magnetic - nice touch!). But it won't fit the master cylinder as the legs aren't long enough.
So, after a bit of lateral thinking I cut down a 4 inch nail and made the end hemispherical, a small grommet to centre it in the master cylinder and made sure the head was flat. Next, a couple of bolts were fitted to the master cylinder and heights adjusted on both sides until they were identical heights, matching the nail head using a flat edge across all three against a backlight to check.
Then the tool could be fitted and the adjustable centre rod set to the correct gap -ie in contact with the nail head.
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With the tool locked off it could be transferred back to the servo and the gap checked. It was at this point I realised that the nail I'd used might not have the same curvature (and hence contact point) as the servo pushrod. Back to the previous post except this time I replaced the nail with the head of the pushrod from a scrap servo in a brass tube and repeated the steps above.
Then it was a simple matter of lengthening the pull rod to close the gap to nothing and backing it off to achieve a small (1mm) gap. Checked the pedals were still in the same relative position, reattach the master cylinder and reconnect all the pipework.
Job done, now, where did i put the box for the tool that I'll never ever need again.....
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On my VX coupe the brake pedal was a bit lower than the clutch. This had been commented on in some MOT tests and the PO had asked his garage to sort which they failed to do - even wrote to PO saying so. I had a look at the system of links to get the RHD brake pedal to activate the servo on the LHS. There are a couple of ball and socket adjusters which when both were adjusted gave me pedal at the correct height......
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Hi Tim, yes the pull rod on the pedal can be adjusted to move the pedal rest position but I think you need to be really careful doing that as the switch position, being adjustable, can also affect it. You may be transferring movement down through the linkage to the servo inadvertently? Proof of concept comes when you drive the car - any contact between pushrod and master cylinder could cause the brakes to drag or worse?
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One step forward, two steps back then three forward. That's what today feels like!
First job was to install the quarterlight frame. That was simple enough and the rubber seal fitted nicely too. Next was completing the window runners, another simple job, all lined up and bolted into place. Then the new felt channels went in. They were a little bit of a struggle until I realised they were getting stuck on the stainless trim's return edge so working that side in first cured that. I decided to keep it in one piece so some careful cutting for the two corners was needed, I think factory is one section per part, five sections in all but I went for one continuous run. Very happy with the result.
Next up was the door latch mechanism and pull handle. That was easy once I'd removed the rear window channel. Then I had to take it all out again to fit the pull rod. The opening handle at the front was then connected up, stuck in place and tested and the latch works. It also opens from the outer handle aperture. At that point I was happy to adjust the catch on the B post and the door closes with a very satisfying clunk. Luckily it opens too! Then out with the inner handle again so I could rivet on the internal rubber rain shield before the handle went back in for the last time.
Drop glass next. I hate this bit. But it went in lower leading edge first with a couple of filler spreaders either side of the bracket on the bottom edge. Until I realised I needed to remove the lower channels so I could rotate it into position inside the door and lift it into the raised position. Then I could refit the channels and felt and check it dropped smoothly. Which it did.
Next, pick a window motor and manhandle that into the door cavity. Yup, off with the front channel to get the motor past it. With that in place I could refit the channel and felt, drop the glass down the tracks and attach it to the motor runner bracket loosely, connect a battery to it and lift the glass to the top of it's aperture, tighten the bolts and check it runs smoothly up and down.
It did. And pretty well too!
Not much left to finish off the drivers door now. Just a quick repaint of the outer door handle, fit that and then fit the lock from the inside (that allows the handle to be fitted much more easily - without paint damage!) and connect up the mechanism. Once that's on I need to make an internal wiring loom for the lift motor, door edge light and central locking - if I decide to fit that in the coming months. A few plastic bungs and the green "waterproofing" sheeting and i can think about the next tasks. The other door probably....
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Drivers door handle stripped down to it's base components and cleaned. I've removed the old paint as it was mostly flaked off and given it a fresh coat of matt black. Now I think it should have been satin. Ho hum. I guess I'll find out how well satin covers matt!
Can anyone confirm the correct finish?
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And I must be off my trolley. I spotted a left side Sicursiv quarterlight with holes in it on eBay complete with an incomplete mirror (no glass) and bought it for silly money. Fortunately I also need a mirror gasket set despite already having three mirrors.
This car is going to kill my bank account.
This car has already killed my bank account... :-\
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Door handles. The set that came with the car were corroded beyond use but fortunately I managed to pick up a goodish pair from Jim in Farnborough a while back. They still needed a clean and repaint before they could go back on the car though.
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So, out with the circlip pliers and remove the one on the handle pivot pin and the other on the latch actuator arm. The actuator arm slips off easily enough with the spring and nylon spacer and the two pins can then be punched out with a drift and hammer ready to be overhauled. Except for the lock mechanism itself it looks like this when cleaned and painted.
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I'm only doing one door handle at a time... the handed parts are clearly marked S&D to allow differentiation but the springs aren't interchangeable. Once it's cleaned the reassembly is quite simple, especially if you have a second handle around for comparison.
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Once the door handle is assembled it can be fitted into the door itself. Don't be tempted to fit the lock itself though, this makes fitting it in the aperture without damaging paintwork impossible. Fit it once it's in the door, it's only 2 screws! (The same applies if you're removing a handle from a door - take the lock out first!
The window channel at the back had to come out again to gain access though. It's all confirming that assembly the first time round was all wrong and the lower channels should be last to be put back in.
So, with the handle and lock safely back in the door the pawl can be reattached to the latch mechanism and the door shut and openend using the door handle and, even better, locked and unlocked using the key.
The lock mechanisms were previously stripped and rebuilt to suit the key I had courtesy of a demonstration by Peter a couple of years ago. This allows you to thoroughly clean all the components and reassemble them with graphite powder and not grease for (hopefully) many more years of use!
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Just needs a little gentle polish again to get rid of the sticky fingerprints.
In other news the final piece of clear Sicursiv glass pitched up today, it survived DHL intact. Does anyone recall a Beta (Probably a Spider) registered TKP233X? That number plate is etched into the glass so I've got some research to do to see if it can be polished out or if I need to leave well alone and accept it's there or get an etching kit to blank it out.
Thoughts anyone?
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Quiet day on the car today. Trying to remotely support a friend with an email issue that needs an anti virus sweep but he's less computer literate than I am. Good job I have a round trip planned this weekend....
Checked the Hobbycraft website and it said they had some glass etching acid in stock, got there and it'd gone. All of it. Got some kitty litter instead, came back and installed the passenger side door handle, lock, inner door handle and linkage to the latch mechanism nailed to the door. Adjusted the catch on the B post, that's both doors closing properly and locking from the inside and the outside with the key. And unlocking.
Tomorrow we're having carpets cleaned professionally (and have started a bet to see which of the cats pukes on it first and when - I've got 10 minutes after they finish...) so I'm hoping to pull the carpet out of the Beta and see if they can do anything better with it! Plenty left for next week before the passenger door is built up fully!
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Just needs a little gentle polish again to get rid of the sticky fingerprints.
In other news the final piece of clear Sicursiv glass pitched up today, it survived DHL intact. Does anyone recall a Beta (Probably a Spider) registered TKP233X? That number plate is etched into the glass so I've got some research to do to see if it can be polished out or if I need to leave well alone and accept it's there or get an etching kit to blank it out.
Thoughts anyone?
FNC proudly bears the VRN of one of Chris Mace's old Betas in this exact spot. Never occurred to me to try to remove it. I thought the whole idea was based on the theory that the etchings were impossible to remove?
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I have contemplated polishing it out Neil but the etch goes so deep into the surface that's likely to end in tears. The alternatives are to try re-etching it to obliterate it or just leave it as is. Before I attempt the obliteration I think I need to find another piece of glass to practice on by etching a number onto it, cleaning it and then re-etch over it to create a blocked out area....
And, in the meantime, keep an eye out for another quarterlight without any etching on it....
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An alternative is to put a sticker on the inside there.
I did that on my tailgate for the same reason. Hardly see it now.
Maybe a 'next oil/cambelt change' type thing.
N.
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Alternatively, 'This is my other car'?
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Good ideas - keep them coming! Maybe an Italian flag painted over the etched area? Or "Alarm Fitted" or Protected by Mafia"
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I don't know how much harder toughened glass is than other types of glass but I do have some success improving damage on smaller glass items, for example hardlex type watch crystals. Simply polishing isn't really an option you need to be a bit more brutal so good quality wet and dry and diamond impregnated cloths. Essentially it has to look worse to eventually look better. Sand away the imperfection then use progressively finer abrasives to improve the finish. Finish off with cerium oxide polish. Mainly by hand is best but you can use polishing attachments on a mini tool for the final gloss. As said I've not tried this on toughened glass.
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Parts wanted for experimentation whilst I'm at the assembly stage before the heater box and dash goes in! I'm toying with the idea of retrofitting and air conditioning kit in the car!
Still at the research stage and have seen a couple of kits at Car Builder Solutions and a few on eBay and Amazon. The pump is the deciding factor but electric pumps of any quality are expensive compared to belt driven ones, it'll also determine pipe routing and dryer location.
There are also considerations as to whether it's stand alone or tied to the heater matrix. There's enough space in the heater box plenum, has anyone got any details of the original Lancia setup?
If I decide to go with this I think I'd prefer the pump to be belt driven and that means looking at some brackets to hang it from where the power steering pump would be on a later car so, should anyone have the oil filter block and power steering pump brackets spare plus a suitable crank pulley I've got beer tokens waiting!
Cheers
Guy
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Guy,
I removed the factory a/c from my hpe and still have all the stuff
in a fairly sorry state.
I retained the compressor engine block mounting due to not having an easy
and viable alternative. Eric, at the time, posted some pics on my page of what bracketry
he has, and may still have, but it didn't appear to help me at the time.
I have the condenser, evaporator, compressor, dryer, the heater box (containing
the evaporator) and the vacuum-actuated push button panel. And all the hoses.
Having said all that, I would not recommend using any of it in its current condition.
Maybe the compressor, after an overhaul, but it's very heavy and using 50 year old tech.
I never attempted to fill and run the system before removal.
However, some of these parts could be used as patterns for a remake.
I have toyed with an a/c retrofit, and would use CBS parts, an electric compressor, and a stand-alone
evap and fan in or above the pax footwell, possibly in place of the glovebox container.
Food for thought.
Nigel
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I think I recall seeing Lancia Auto SA https://share.google/z8r1rBCHDv6bv57EV offering kits some years ago, perhaps worth asking them for advice?
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Thanks Nigel, the whole lot might be of interest for nothing more than seeing what the factory did and i I can work out where everything fitted and was routed. I think the heater box and evaporator would be most useful so I could compare it to the original non aircon box to see how everything fitted together. But like you I'm looking at CBS parts that will be easier to work with and install.
Cheers
Guy
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And thanks for thinking of Felix, I won't bother him for stuff like this as I think it's too heavy and fragile to ship this far. I'd rather plough my own furrow this this one. I did find this kit on Amazon but realise that it's probably cheap for a reason.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Aspligo-Conditioner-conditioning-Only-Cooling/dp/B0DCZN35HD/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_pl_foot_top?ie=UTF8
I've asked for compressor dimensions as this might fit on the left hand side inner wing but I haven't had a reply yet. Not really expecting one!
Guy
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I did electric AC on my Monte and it was VERY complex and pricy to do. For a Beta I would use a new belt driven compressor with a new dryer perhaps using the OE Evaporator in the OE Heater box. Try T7Design for all the parts you will need. https://www.t7design.co.uk/air-con/ac-compressors-belt-driven.html Note they sell flexible hose with clips not requiring and industrial crimp machine. Modern compressors are far lighter and more efficient and also designed for modern AC gas. Old kit will have dead seals and water damage probably with hoses completely seized in place. Making the controls electrical and period appropriate needed some custom bits made by an auto electrician. Keep it simple and do not expect modern OEM AC! PS I do not have the spare PS brackets anymore. Eric
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Thanks Eric - I'll have a look online at what T7 Design offer. The Stratos has a heater element made by them which works marginally! My design could be better I think!
Cheers
Guy
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Waiting for some glass etching acid (and a call from the vet) so it's not a really productive day so far. I pulled a few little bits of rubber out to clean and restore and install and then realised I don't have any pictures from disassembly...
So, the mystery parts are pictured below. I know where they go, it's the firewall, one is outboard and high next to the servo and the other is opposite side near the clutch lever pedal mount. But they're handed and I don't know if they fit with the main body of the grommet inside the car or protruding into the engine bay... It's probably obvious but I haven't tried fitting them yet.....
Can anyone shed any light by looking? Thanks!
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Hi Guy
They should fit protruding into the cabin and mate with part of the dash to give a sort of seal. Did not remember they were on the later cars.
Peter
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Thanks Peter, I may have to have a look at the dash and offer it in place. That’ll solve it.
Guy
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Well that was a pretty awful week that culminated in a much loved cat having to be put so sleep yesterday. Sympathies to anyone else who has had to go through that trauma even if it's as peaceful at the end as our experience was.
Not too much to report this week. The etching cream worked and the old number plate is now just an oblong etch mark on the glass, it doesn't look bad and certainly better than an incorrect number. The quarterlight is now in place and the drop glass is in on the new channels. An initial feeling is that it's tighter than the drivers door so I have some investigating to do to see why next week. I'll start that be fitting the electrics and the lower front guide and seeing how the motor copes with the drag. Or not.
There was some plating also collected on Friday so the handbrake mechanism, lower cover and handbrake cable could be installed along with the exhaust heat shield. I must invest in some brake pads, tighten all the unions, finish overhauling the front callipers, find the correct banjo union for the master cylinder and see if the system can be bled.
Guy
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And yes, there's a little manipulation required on the brake and fuel line to get it all neat!
There's a bracket in the underside of the car, next to the big bung where the gear-lever is and there's a cutout in the heat shield there. Since the car didn't have an exhaust system on it when I got it can anyone enlighten me on what the bracket is for? My memories from 34-40 years ago don't extend to seeing this before...
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Oh, and a deal has been done with Nigel for the remains of an airconditioning system from a Beta to see if I can retrofit something to the car. Watch this space as they say!
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There's a bracket in the underside of the car, next to the big bung where the gear-lever is and there's a cutout in the heat shield there. Since the car didn't have an exhaust system on it when I got it can anyone enlighten me on what the bracket is for? My memories from 34-40 years ago don't extend to seeing this before...
I replaced the two rear-most sections last week and also found that bracket. There's a heat shield mounted
on my downpipe at that point but no visible means to use the bracket. I ignored it.
N.
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Lots going on in the last week but little on the Beta! Realising I was away for a week at the end of the month and that that co-incided with the expiry of the Panda's MOT it was time to give it a little attention. It's not had much in the last year but also hasn't seen much use but I hate taking a car for the test unprepared. That includes making sure it's clean inside and out and underneath. The plastic trim around the car was showing it's age and was fading to grey gradually so part of the tidy up was restoring it. I've used Autoglym for a few years but this leaves streaks on the paintwork after rain so this time I decided to use a new to me product, Owatrol Polytrol and apply it with a toothbrush... It took a while but was worth it. Time will tell how long it's going to last. Advisory free MOT duly obtained on Monday!
Guy
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And so today has been spent on housework in preparation for visitors but once that was done it was time to try something new! After the success of treating plastics on the Panda I decided to drag the centre console out and give it a clean. I actually have a spare one so started on that as it looked worse than the original as an experiment. I washed both with a stiff brush and washing up liquid before hosing them off and then applied the Owarol Polytrol with a toothbrush, working it into the surface and buffing it off before it became sticky. It's worked beautifully on the spare one but not so well on the original, I might give that a second treatment but if it doesn't work it looks like the spare one is going in the car! Really happy with how it turned out. Photo below shows the finished one and the original before i had a go at it. The original didn't change colour much...
Next practice piece will be a spare door mirror body. It should work just as well on them!
Guy
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Way better in black than that weird grey green they become over time. I think I painted mine in specialist plastic paint, but of course I have forgotten what I used!
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There's a bracket in the underside of the car, next to the big bung where the gear-lever is and there's a cutout in the heat shield there. Since the car didn't have an exhaust system on it when I got it can anyone enlighten me on what the bracket is for? My memories from 34-40 years ago don't extend to seeing this before...
I replaced the two rear-most sections last week and also found that bracket. There's a heat shield mounted
on my downpipe at that point but no visible means to use the bracket. I ignored it.
N.
Further thought: I think that bracket is used where a flex coupling is present, giving
support to the section after the flexy bit.
N
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Not sure Nigel, the bracket is offset and outside the run for the heat shield. I'll have to look at some of the manuals I've got and see if I can work it out, I was thinking it looked like it ought to have a spring attached? The mystery will be solved eventually.
There' not going to be a lot to report for the next couple of weeks, some Beta Aircon parts are going to be collected from Nigel to see if it's possible to retrofit something to the car, the bits will give me a routing clue for pipework I hope.
In the meantime, in preparation for a rough dash install so I can work out how I'm going to fit a double din head unit I've been working on the gauge cluster. I acquired a couple of spare sets, one orange needled like my original set and another white set. I prefer the white needles, 140mph Speedo and different warning light graphics. It took a bit of work to dismantle them, clean the set up, reset the mileage to zero and reassemble them but I'm happy with the results. Original gauges on top show 70,500 miles but I think I can justify resetting them..... It'll be practically a new car once it's done. won't it?
Guy
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Thanks to Peter there’s a top mount on the way. Hero!
Head scratching today, so much to do and I didn’t fancy more drill work so I thought I’d have a go at the rubber steering rack inner arm shrouds. One down one to go. Scraped the worst of the crud off, washed with a scrubbing brush then a mixture of solvents (petrol and WD40) and some rubber treatment.
I’ll do the other one tomorrow. It’s come up quite soft after all that work and should last a while!
Guy
I have a pair from Mark and need cleaning. If you dont mind me asking what rubber treatment did you use?
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Rubber cleaning has been a mixture of solvents (petrol and/or white spirit) to remove any contaminants followed by treatment with Autoglym rubber and vinyl gel and also something called Gummi Pflege which is a German product for door seal cleaning and treating to stop rubber squeaks, not sure this is recommended for rubber top mounts though. If you're getting some new ones from Mark they'll be fine!
Guy
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Misunderstanding.. this was in relationship for a pair of rubber steering rack inner arm shrouds
MF
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Okay Mark, the same applies for those rubber inner arch steering arm protectors or whatever they are called!
Guy
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It happened..
Pulling a box off the top shelf in the garage and a small tin of paint landed on the bonnet and bounced onto the passenger wing.
Gutted. Pissed with myself. Needs a repair at the paint shop. Idiot. That was avoidable.
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Hi Guy
I feel for you, I had the end of an exhaust manifold fall against the Spider door and swore quite a lot......
Still to have an event on the HPE, but it will come!
All the best, beer helps!
Peter
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Thanks Peter, it will get fixed....
I collected a Beta aircon kit from Nigel last week comprising the compressor & brackets, condenser, evaporator in the heater box, dryer, controls and pipework to see if I could retrofit it to the Coupe. A quick look today isn't looking promising. The compressor won't fit the mounts I have and the condensers mounting feet don't match the odd brackets on the lower crossmember. They are too close together. Hey ho.
So, if I'm going to retrofit aircon to the car I'm going to need some alternatives. An electric compressor is looking the most likely way to go if I can make a model of it and find a place it can live in the engine bay, most likely spot is the inner wing where the horn compressor lives or the other side where the coil lives which will entail moving something.
I've identified an alternative evaporator that looks like it'll fit with an integral dryer from a Lancia Delta/Fiat Punto/etc etc so sort of keeping it in the family! I suspect the pipework will be straight forward to have made and route but the controls I'm not yet sure about. The original Beta ones are all vacuum operated and whilst they can probably be sorted I think it's probably simpler to motorise everything?
The heater box is, unsurprisingly, different from the non aircon car and this will require some further investigation. It has separate heater cores and aircon evaporators with the aircon pipes coming in on the passenger side. This might dictate installation of the compressor on the left side of the car!
Looking at Nigel's car also identified another probable issue! The Guy Croft motor I'm installing has a pair of twin 40 Dellorto's on it and clearance to the standard radiator with it's shrouding is going to be too tight I think. Especially with the standard fan and it's cowling. I think I'll have to resort to finding one from an IE or VX which I think sits further forward in the engine bay... I'm sure I'll get the chance to look at other engine bays in a couple of weeks to get some more ideas.
Guy
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Use a Belt driven Compressor if you possibly can. They just deliver more powerful AC. Also the water drain in the OE Heater/Evaporator box will be far too small. I found this out with a soggy left foot and in car cold shower on my last trip to Turin with the AC newly installed. This is now fixed thank fully. Making the speed switch lever match the original involved a lot of custom electrical work. Avoid this.
Eric
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Regarding the radiator, I ,very briefly, years ago had a HPE VX with a single dcoe (very rough only fit for scrap) and the modifier had simply found a more modern slimmer alloy cored radiator that would fit offset further to the left thereby leaving more breathing room for the carb. I can't remember much more about it unfortunately.
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Thanks for the advice Eric, I'm looking at this compressor from T7 designs and I'm confident it will fit between the battery and the slam panel. It won't fit behind the headlights on either side unfortunately.
https://www.t7design.co.uk/18cc-electric-a-c-scroll-compressor-12v-2-15kw-3-speed-2-5k-3-5k-4-5k-048-d6e-edb.html
This is the condensing radiator that will fit between the slam panel and the lower crossmember and has an integral dryer.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/317217951903?_skw=universal+air+conditioning+condenser&itmmeta=01K4GCQVD788HYHRCBXKEQYW8K&hash=item49dba9d09f:g:CgMAAeSwS7por-0z&itmprp=enc%3AAQAKAAAA4FkggFvd1GGDu0w3yXCmi1frdF6tGYLVA%2BezQHET26lW77ZQkwdZTUKw07HzFEmCm6BIUXNdpiLI7oTeXJSbWjzaMkTCbLuPIG7D9t03KNFIcqBX5ifL2VXxd3HLQG1K30qi49k04IVYibLAvzIWflzYTNZM9l8JORS4xYOISuAAtH7xnWEzUnGx5j5GCCR3MwLHQWWXgl7eMkocnkCmqRdcrkJ1IMuASRCcjj22dVtUznHo%2Bqx6iSY9vNernAb%2BZi%2FhUNMzzCEW8RbaC1LRF5NZWIOsn4M%2BC8fptcNWcM0A%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR4a334ykZg&pfm=0
As I'll be having a custom wiring loom for the car I'm not too worried at this point about electrics and will go for a 4 position rotary switch if I can resolve flap controls on the heater boxes and heater valve.
Guy
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Hi Ian, I think I might have more room than that.. The Guy Croft manifold is shorter than a standard manifold and shorter than the VX one with a supercharger and a twin 40 nailed to the front. Depending on air filter choice obviously. But yes, any slimline radiator that fits will be considered provided it's got enough cooling capacity! In an ideal world I'd find a radiator pack with a shrouded fan that would fit neatly between the underside of the slam panel and the top of the lower crossmember. And maybe have enough space for an oil cooler radiator. I think I can possibly go for a pusher type fan in front of the radiator pack too. But I need to sort one part at a time.
Visitors this week so nothing more to see in this space for a while...
Guy
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This has been bugging me for a while now. Boot lid isn't shutting neatly. Right side okay, left, not so much.
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I had a look at it before I went to Gerrys last week and decided that the locknut on the catch was the issue. It was too thick, so I "borrowed" a half nut from Gerry's stores and tried that. No difference. The it dawned on me that the locknut could also be fitted from below. This allowed a couple more turns on the catch and an improvement but I'm still not entirely happy with it, it's still slightly proud. I may resort to another catch to see if that plays any better. I don't think the seal is the issue but I'm going to leave it a few days before I revisit this in case it settles with a little more pressure on it.
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In the meantime, the observant will have noted the car is on the wrong side of the garage. That's because the Stratos replica is demanding a little love and attention in the form of a new Wosp starter motor which will require the removal of the back end (done), the anti roll bar, the left exhaust pipe, the manifold and heat shield before I can get to the starter itself. If this Wosp starter fixes the hot start issue I think I might invest in one for the Beta and maybe a Wosp alternator too. It'll have to cope with the electric aircon compressor and fans... Radiator and compressor ordered today, I think my credit card company are getting nervous....
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Hi Guy
Sounds painful.....
I will be interested in the alternator end result as hoping to fit electric PS pump and will therefore need uprated alternator for that.
Peter
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Those wheels / tyres and the exhaust pipes are ridiculous! :)
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With Electric AC and a High Amp WOSP 175amp Alternator I have been plagued by V Belt slip when the AC is at maximum. I have used an idler to get more belt wrap and now a slightly larger alternator pulley. Use a Poly V belt or tooth drive if you can. Note I have a tooth belt drive set up from Croatia on my bench to work out how I make it work. The crank pulley is 28 tooth not 29 like a VX crank pulley toothed pulley so I will have to have a toothed crank pulley drive made to run the alternator WP and Volumetrico SC. Alan Young Engineering for this. If you are not using a VX or Volumetrico and have no need for an ECU trigger disc mount it is a great solution. I have some engineering drawings to do!
Eric
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Those wheels / tyres and the exhaust pipes are ridiculous! :)
Thank you!
Well I stood back and admired the installation of the new Wosp starter this afternoon and then noticed the heat shield was still lying on the floor.... It has a couple of holes in not, corrosion, so I need to dig a spare one out IF I can remember where it is and strip the manifold off again. Hey ho.
The air con radiator also arrived today and the measurements on the website were for the core. The dryer on one end and the hose pipe block mean it won't fit where I thought it would but it's still workable with an iE or VX radiator I think. £75 not wasted just yet! Compressor will arrive tomorrow but I need to swap the cars back over as I can't open the bonnet where it is at the moment - there's a big Lancia illuminated sign preventing that!
Guy
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Heat shield back in place to protect the (expensive) Wosp starter motor... It took a bit of persuading to fit as the new one has a different shape but it's amazing what you can achieve with a lump hammer and a bit of directed violence.....
The compressor also arrived today and looks good, wiring instructions simple enough even for me but I don't like the design/quality of the connector block that came with it. It's a universal one so you can connect a self made loom direct to the battery. contacts are too exposed and it just looks amateurish. I will find another way.
Tomorrows task will be to clean the chassis of the Stratos before I put the rear clip back on and then swap the cars around so I can get back to the Beta and start CAD work to fabricate brackets for the compressor and look at mounting the radiators. I suspect I'm going to have to go bespoke for the water radiator now. Can't design that until the engine is installed. And that needs checking over before I attempt installation!
Guy
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Today was an expensive one. All heating and cooling related with an awful lot of searching interwebs.
Andrea left me alone today and went for a walk, she hates being in the house when there are workmen in and today it was the boiler being changed. There is more noise to come as the cupboard needs surgery before it will go back in place and can I find the bloody jigsaw.....
So, internet research and the use of a measuring stick in the last couple of days in the interests of filling the void that is the hole where the radiator lives. Measured at 660mm wide and 350mm tall from the top surface of the crossmember to the underside of the engine steady bracket plus a little wiggle room and a day searching for something suitable that should keep the engine cool, oil temperatures low and the interior nice and cold when needed and I've ended up with the following solutions, now winging their way to the front door ready for further modification!
First off is the radiator itself, I went for a ready made custom one that's got a core that't 360*300*70 (four rows) with overall dimensions of 465*310*70. The original Beta core is 470*320*40 so the extra rows should give more cooling area. Time will tell! It'll have mounting lugs for fans, inlet and outlet on the left side and a vent pipe for the expansion tank already built in. It should also have fan mounting lugs on the front.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/405423437366?mkevt=1&mkpid=0&emsid=e11400.m144671.l197929&mkcid=7&ch=osgood&euid=72ff2ad4b886493ab36373c2fbd8d4ae&bu=43153383004&exe=0&ext=0&osub=-1%7E1&crd=20251015063729&segname=11400
Next is the oil cooler, I went with a Setrab one, not the cheapest option but the engine deserves it! It's 330 tall and 146 wide (installed vertically) with a set of mounting bobbins adding about 30mm to it's width makes a radiator pack width of (465+146+30) 641mm and by the time I've got ducting at the sides sorted and mounts top and bottom made I think that will fill the hole nicely.
https://www.t7design.co.uk/setrab-series-6-235mm-19-row-oil-cooler-black-50-619-7612.html
Lastly there is the air conditioning radiator and I've gone with one from T7 Designs (one stop shop for most of the installation except the compressor and evaporator I hope) that measures 593*350 and looks to be a perfect fit. Again, Time will tell. I think I'll be able to use the front fan mounting lugs on the radiator to secure one side and the bracketry I need to fabricate for the oil cooler for the other side.
https://www.t7design.co.uk/ac-condenser-radiator-593-x-350mm-30311346cp.html
As for mounting this radiator pack I may be able to suspend it from the underside or back face of the top slam panel and support it using two existing brackets on the front of the crossmember which would be ideal as it would give more space behind to utilise for the carburetors and air box (to be designed) and also an Accusump.
Needless to say there are still more components bought (driers/trinary switch and brackets plus oil cooler unions and bulkhead adaptors) and much more to buy (pipework, unions and fill valves) but it all needed to be sorted now to allow me to more other parts along!
Guy
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And with all that done I now realise that the powder coated fan surround is sitting there looking forlorn and that the radiator should probably be put somewhere out of the way. And the new old stock radiator surround/ducting I've bought are now surplus to requirements. Open to offers!
Guy
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Waiting for the DHL driver to pitch up today and wondering how to make some progress - I decided to assemble the gear linkage. I'll have to be partially dismantled to install it but most will go in when the engine is fitted onto the subframe. I ended up buying a set of ball joint sockets from Fortunata Valenza and they're a tight fit - once the powder coating had been removed they pretty much slipped in. The ball joints need modification to drop the thread through but that's no biggie, I just want to Loctite the three of them next. There is a short shift kit to fit from Mark yet. I'm probably going to leave that until the linkage is in and adjusted to my satisfaction, changing that out later shouldn't be too much of an issue. Famous last words.
Guy
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So, at lunchtime the DHL driver rocked up with a parcel from Coolex containing the new radiator. Comparing it to the original one you can see the matrix is slightly smaller. Similar number of fins but the new one is at least twice the thickness so there's more capacity in the radiator itself and more surface area to get temperatures down.
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And just resting in place where I hope it'll live with the oil cooler next to it. There's clearance all round the perimeter and the intention is to weld a could of mountings on the bottom of the radiator for rubber bobbins to locate it and couple of brackets on the top, to a couple of rubber bobbins mounted on the vertical face of the front slam panel. The oil cooler will be mounted to it's own dedicated vertical brackets and any gaps sorted to force airflow through both cores.
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And from the front. The aircon radiator I've got is too big, I'm contemplating modifying it by cutting a row off and shortening the side tanks to suit which would probably work but any warranty goes out the window.. It might be easier to return the one I got and swap it for the smaller (but more expensive!) one from T7.
Guy
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Next headache is the air con installation itself. I haven't worked out where everything is going to live yet. The obvious place for the compressor is on the right inner wing and that's going to require minor surgery to fit in the form of four holes being drilled. I need to get that absolutely right. The issue is routing the refrigerant pipework. I haven't worked out where Lancia put it yet but suspect it's somewhere on the left side of the bulkhead which is going to mean longer pipes than I'd like...
The option that I'm looking at first is taking them through the bulkhead near the steering column mount, underneath the scuttle and boy, has that turned the air blue this afternoon. I needed to find and install the clutch pedal actuation rod that comes through the bulkhead to the pull lever and realized that it was something that is best installed before the pedal box goes in. Best is great but I managed it without removing everything somehow. I then attached the clutch cable to see what clearances are like and it looks possible maybe. Until I get a pipe union onto the bulkhead fitting I got from T7 Designs I won't know if the clutch cable installation fouls it. Or if it's possible to tighten the locknut inside the car as well as the inner unions. The shape of the underside of the dashboard there complex and this may require removal of the pedal box first.
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Having slept on it overnight the potential positioning of the bulkhead fittings have been ruled out. I think I'll need them for the wiring loom...
Plan B. I dragged out all the components that I acquired from Nigel and did a dry assembly of it off the car and this was the only way I could make the components fit together. I think that the lower pipe must have been attached to the to the subframe. The dryer looks like it sits on the left side inner chassis rail infront of the battery, there are a couple of holes that line up there just above the gearbox damper mount but the solid output pipe looks like it wants to be routed where the battery tray lives...
Has anyone got a diagram showing the installation? The only clues from the pipes I have is a rubber grommet around one but I can't see any obvious holes in the bulkhead for it. Of course, a UK supplied car might not have had an air con option?
Guy
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In you pic there is no Vacuum reservoir / tank shown.....
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Waiting for the DHL driver to pitch up today and wondering how to make some progress - I decided to assemble the gear linkage. I'll have to be partially dismantled to install it but most will go in when the engine is fitted onto the subframe. I ended up buying a set of ball joint sockets from Fortunata Valenza and they're a tight fit - once the powder coating had been removed they pretty much slipped in. The ball joints need modification to drop the thread through but that's no biggie, I just want to Loctite the three of them next. There is a short shift kit to fit from Mark yet. I'm probably going to leave that until the linkage is in and adjusted to my satisfaction, changing that out later shouldn't be too much of an issue. Famous last words.
Guy
I hope your gear changes are silky smooth with linkage looking like that. I have a rebuild kit and was thinking its lasted years so hopefully will do the same again. I might take a look at the ones you mention now... [slippery slope]
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The new air con system won't be using the vacuum controls so the reservoir (whatever it looks like or lives) won't be needed. I'm planning on installing linear actuators to open and close the heater valve, redirect the airflow and the recirculation.
For anyone interested so far I've noted:
1. There's a condenser in it with a valve poking out the side ;D
2. The heater matrix is the same on both types.
3. The vacuum controls are mounted on bosses that also appear on the standard one.
4. The inlet flap, visible in the scuttle, is different to the non aircon box. When it's shut there's a flap that opens on the back of the box to recirculate airflow inside the car.
5. Dash controls are completely different save for the heater slider and flap opener.
I won't be using the original controls either, I'm still working on that aspect of the installation but the space it's occupying is likely where a bunch of switches is going to live below a double din radio aperture with a clock and ashtray delete. That's the next job once I'm happy the aircon and radiators installation is finalized.
Guy
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Gearchanges being silky smooth? I think that's down to the driver's ability to match engine revs to the speed when changing gears. Selection is another matter and, having played with the Stratos one over the years it's a matter of setup I hope! Elimination of anything that's causing slop will improve it and that's the tightness of various bolts and ball joints in the linkage and wear in the five sockets (three large and two small) plus the bushing at the front gearbox mount. The one area I haven't looked at yet is the gear lever mount in the cabin, it's held in by two studs at the front and one at the rear with bushed rubber grommets in the mounting. They give a little and, if I'm not happy with the change I'll look at making them a little more solid. Other areas to consider are the state of the front and (especially) the rear gearbox mounts and the state of the gearbox damper. Any unwanted movements there will affect the gear change too.
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Hi Guy
I found some play in the 'swivel' part which is located on the bolt highlighted in red. I found you need to shim it just enough so it is not tight, but not loose....
Peter
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Thanks for the heads up Peter! I'll check that when I drop the subframe to install it!
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That gearshift linkage is just fantastic...I would have that in a cabinet in the lounge :)
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Right folks, what are the two brackets on the front of the crossmember for? The ones with the big circular holes...
I'm having a long hard look at them and thinking the air con install might be simpler if they weren't in the way. And using a bigger radiator has to be preferable to a smaller one!
Guy
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I think they are for the rubber mounts that the later rad plugs into
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Hi Tim
Correct, the later radiator sits further forward on IE, probably VX as well from memory of me stripping down the IE Coupe
Peter
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Thanks both - Weird - obviously my car is a 1980 one so why would it have radiator mounts for a later radiator? It's odd that one is central and the other on the right side, almost as if there's one missing on the left side. I did offer up the air con radiator I got from Nigel and whilst the mounts on that radiator fitted into one of the brackets the spacing was wrong, no way two feet would fit at the same time. I'm going to sleep on this one before I decide to remove them, I need to finalise the mounting of the oil cooler and the support for the right side of the air con radiator, left side can be nailed to the fan bosses on the water radiator.
Guy
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I think they are for the rubber mounts that the later rad plugs into
I have them on my car. It runs a similar rad, and in those holes goes some hard black plastic mounts with round spherical bumps (that go in the holes) and have parallel bits that fit into the bottom of the rad. I will look for a photo but not sure if I took one
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Thanks both - Weird - obviously my car is a 1980 one so why would it have radiator mounts for a later radiator? It's odd that one is central and the other on the right side, almost as if there's one missing on the left side. I did offer up the air con radiator I got from Nigel and whilst the mounts on that radiator fitted into one of the brackets the spacing was wrong, no way two feet would fit at the same time. I'm going to sleep on this one before I decide to remove them, I need to finalise the mounting of the oil cooler and the support for the right side of the air con radiator, left side can be nailed to the fan bosses on the water radiator.
Guy
North American Betas had fuel injection from the 81 model year, so probably introduced in 1980, which would have probably required the relocated radiators. Probably they put the fittings on all body shells?
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Guy,
When I'm back in the uk on Thursday I'll post a pic of the brackets on my car, which may help to reduce the mystery.
N.
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Thanks all, that make sense of why they're there then! In the last couple of days I've sorted out the radiator mounts with a simple alluminium channel on the base with a rubber barrier between that and the radiator and this will sit on a large rubber pad (when I find one 25mm and 350mm wide) and will overhang the front edge of the crossmember slightly. The top will be located in the same way but with a bracket (position to be finalised) secured to the back of the upper crossmember.
I've spent several hours on the T7 Design website looking at various hoses and fittings trying to work out how to get the refrigerant around the circuit but come up with an issue that's bound to be resolvable! There's one PAD fitting for the compressor needed to allow me to use -10 hoses from one side of the expansion valve, through the charge port and compressor to the condenser radiator that's not listed/showing on the website. The other side, from condenser radiator through the charge port and dryer to the expansion valve can be done in -6 hose.
Because of the one missing fitting I need to ask T7 Design if the use of three different hose sizes is okay and, if not, what combination is! The original installation appears to use only two sizes.
I think tasks for the next couple of days are phone calls, removal of the front bumper and valance to allow some minor surgery and finalising the radiator pack install. Once done the front end can be reassembled and the grille/light surrounds put on permanently!
I now know that the condensing radiator will fit once one of the surplus to requirements brackets is removed so I don't need to return it and get a slightly smaller one. Phew.
Next up will be designing a couple of mounts for the oil cooler with one of them also providing damped support for the air con radiator. I also visited a recommended air con repair expert near me and he's had a look at the evaporator and said that it looks perfectly usable and that a fan can be installed as either a push one infront of the radiator pack or a pull one behind. I'm keeping options open on that but leaning towards behind as there are existing mounting lugs on the water radiator.
Guy
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Stripped the front end off the car this afternoon and tried the spare front valance on it. A much, much nicer fit so that's the one I'll use.
I need to source a 35mm rubber pad to fix the radiator in the correct place. And then I made a rookie error - found what I needed on eBay and pushed buy it now. Despite the filter being set to UK only (I think) it's coming from China and won't arrive for 3 weeks. Shouldn't slow me down too much. Worked out how & where to mount the oil cooler so I need to mock that up so I can design the right side condenser mounting next. Job for tomorrow!
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Another box of bits arrived today for the aircon install a right old mixture of hoses and fittings from T7 Design that was really confusing... Until I sorted by hose fitting size (-6, -8 and -10 and then laid it all out in order of installation. And then realized I was two fittings short, my fault. And then I realized that none of the Famale O-Ring fittings came with.... you guessed it, an O-Ring. They're listed at T7 unconsumables and spares. Had a go at them for that!
Next "problem" to overcome is that the aircon system needs a three speed fan to match the electrical compressor. And the Beta is only two speed so now I'm researching replacements that will fit into the Beta airbox, at least making the base plate is easy enough as I can use the existing one as a pattern!
I'd like to improve the airflow from the vents if possible, I'm sure the extra matrix I've got will create a little back pressure and slow things down a little bit but what I don't know is the base figure the Beta fans produce so I can compare it to a few aftermarket ones I've found that look like they may just about fit! Question asked in the cooling section but it bears repetition here:
Does any know the CFM value for the Beta heater fan?
Cheers
Guy
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Guy,
The fan speed is controlled by the air-cooled resistor on the near-side inner
scuttle area. Having a switch with 2 positions restricts it to two speeds.
Now, the question is, is full speed still going through the resistor, or does it bypass?
And if the latter, would a wiring alteration give another speed? (with a suitable switch)
This may well be something easily tested on the bench.....
As for CFM, maybe more recent vehicles have stats on this and that a real-life comparison could be
made by 'feeling' the strength of blow. Also, as any fule kno, a venturi could modify
the speed...
Nigel
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I guess there's no harm in trying to run the motor with a spare 3 position switch I have somewhere Nigel. I have a lovingly restored and replated resistor that I suspect I won't be using but it's probably possible to modify that to add a third take off to give a three speed fan. All food for thought before I buy a brand new fan and fabricate a mounting plate for it.
Guy
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Hi Guy when you are at the NEC show grab Tim Mountain the guy who showed his Gold Monte last year. He is a very experienced Auto Electrician who produced the control pack that worked with the 3 position switch we found that looked like a Monte Switch but had residual current on terminals. The OE Resistors are no longer used. I used the largest SPAL twin fan that would go into the very small Monte heater box. It is FAR quieter and more powerful than the 40 year old original.
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Thanks Eric, I’ve got a 407cfm Spal fan on the way, I may try a side by side comparison once I’ve attached it. I’ll either make an aluminium one or, more likely, cut the Beta mounts off to create a flat plate and Sikaflex and rivet the new one on.
I’ll find Tim Mountain at the NEC and pick his brains on installation too.
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'Residual Current'????
Would like to understand what that means in this application. The application sounds like it requires variable current.
Peter
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Hi Peter It means trying to resolve it with relays alone is a nightmare of complexity and I have built a fair amount of electrical modifications as you know. In doing the Electric AC work Darren and I had good advice from Ian O'Hara of Classic Cool in Australia. He is an actual automotive AC engineer. The expensive electric scroll compressor would not like residual current. We could find only 1 switch that would adapt to look like it belonged in a monte dash.
Note the main power feed to the Electric AC compressor had to have a heavy load isolation relay added because it was creating a battery drain when off. This stuff is not easy.
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Minor progress. All the parts are here now for the aircon install or are on order. Today I sorted out the mounting of the first of three linear actuators. This one will operate the heater valve and has a 30mm throw. The ones for the scuttle flap and redirect from screen to vents both need a 25mm throw and that wasn't easy to find. But they're on the way.
I bought a single switch to check quality and fit and no problem there. Unfortunately the one they sent doesn't work and will be going back. Advertised as a momentary on/off/momentary on it turned out to be a latching switch that is off/on/on. Hey ho...
I've also cut down the fan base and the new one, three speed, will fit nicely. Just need to get a few rivets and to Sikaflex it in place to seal up a couple of minor gaps. That might happen tomorrow but it'll be a couple of weeks before the last two actuators arrive to allow the airbox to be installed permanently. Just a couple of clips to fit to keep the two halves of th eairbox together and I can test the actuator out for the first time!
Guy
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Do remember to triple the size of the heater box water drain unless you enjoy an in car cold shower! This is a learned experience!
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Thanks Eric, I'll have a look at that, hopefully the hole in the bulkhead can accommodate a larger diameter pipe! Or maybe a thinner walled one?
Guy
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One step forward, two back.... Or maybe putting this in writing will clear my thought processes?
I looked at the mechanical heater controls and there are three levers moving three cables, one operates the scuttle flap, one redirects the air from screen to cabin and the third opens/closes the water valve. So, I bought three linear actuators to control these functions, you can see one installed earlier in the thread. It's mated to the earlier metal heater valve I bought from Mark.
Today I was dry assembling everything to test it, and I'll come back to that in a minute... and I realised that there was a flap I've not got any movement on. It's the internal barrier that closes against the heater matrix and its operation is controlled by one of the cables that operates, via a crank, on the plastic heater valve.
So.. has anyone else swapped from the plastic valve to the earlier valve and what did you do? Intall another cable to control the valve or reroute the original one and leave the flap permanently open? I can't really see any issue with that but it must have been put there for a reason. I'm tempted to remove this flap completely, if it serves no function now I might as well be rid of it?
And the dry assembly was wet. I thought I'd better test the heater matrix before buttoning it up and yes, it leaked. I will try another but I suspect the sensible route is to have the leaking one recored. If that's possible.
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As you can see, the new fans have been installed on the original base plate but not tested yet. I need to run a few wires first! Anyway, here's a photo of the original valve showing the levers that operate the (now redundant) flap.
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I'm jumping around tasks at the moment, lots getting done but nothing finalised.
The minor cock up with the switch I ordered last week is resolved, I spoke to the eBay supplier when ordering the majority of the rest of the switches and they've supplied another "wrong" switch so that all I have to do is swap the bases from the fronts. The missing window momentary switches are in stock and will arrive tomorrow. I need to have a close look at them and work out the wiring as the instructions are suggesting complex relays are needed. I'm hoping they can be wired as changeover switches like the originals!
I also got to work on an Excel spreadsheet to layout what I want to achieve as the single DIN radio is going, don't smoke so the ashtray is going, got a watch so the clock is going and the HVAC controls are all going electric too. This leaves a gaping hole next to the instrument cluster that'll be filled with a double DIN head unit and a row of switches.
Left to right, electric window, heated rear window, rear fogs, hazard, front fogs, radiator fan and electric window. All the HVAC controls will move down to the centre console and should be recirculation, redirection, three speed fan, heater valve and aircon.
Having looked at the layout and the gaps between the switches I thought it looked a bit of a nightmare to cut out with the tools I have (Drills, files, hacksaws, jigsaws and a nibbler) so I surrendered and have ordered a couple in 3mm and a couple in 4mm to be laser cut. I think the front may need some subtle bending and the sides need folding too, maybe cutting and welding so there's extras for experimentation!
Guy
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Thought that the pdf template would appear but it didn't so sorry, you can download it easily enough!
For the switches I got them all from Bolt On Bits on eBay, everything came next day courier and issues were resolved with one phone call, they even remembered to email to tell me the out of stock ones were back in stock today! Can't fault them.
I went with this style rocker switch for each function I wanted, night illumination is green behind the logo with an on telltale in red/orange. I've sourced a couple of alternatives from another supplier for the hazard warning switch, a different base dedicated for the hazard with a red switch and also a black switch that is illuminated red. I think the hazard switch should be a little more visible?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/364020864312
Guy
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And a closer look at it again after the posts above... First pic without the heater core shows the flap up. In this position it blanks the airflow through the matrix and forces it underneath where the airflow gets directed into the cabin or onto the screen via another flap. Second picture shows it flat which forces air through the heater matrix (but only when the heater valve is open). Third picture with the heater matrix in place which shows the opening below it is open for airflow when the valve and flap are closed.
The upshot it that I need to actuate this flap which will require another actuator. Luckily the pivot rod for this flap protudes out the other side of the box so it can be controlled on its own. It's longer than the others I've got as it has vacuum controls or sensors there actuated by a bolted on lever. I could redesign the actuator to work with a later plastic valve but they're hard to find and I've already got the metal one. Plus the new actuator can also be controlled by the same switch as the heater valve.
I've sorted it in my mind. The flap should be functional and not flat. Leaving it flat closes the airflow underneath the heater matrix and forces it to go through the matrix which may reduce the airflow by restricting it, not something that's wanted when I've got aircon installed and want maximum circulation.
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Airbox number two dismantled today. Found a loose screw in there, a rusty Allen key and bulkhead speedo cable grommet. Perished. Just like the heater core.
Bugger.
Looks like I'm going to get two recored, one for the shelf so I'll never need another one...
Guy
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Went for a drive today to get a quote from a recommended radiator recore company who happened to be next door to the guys who painted the Beta's shell. They won't entertain it and have pointed me in the direction of somebody who can. Quote requested but I may take a knackered one to the NEC on Sunday to see if anyone there has one for sale. Or if Coolex (who supplied the radiator) would make one, they're exhibiting.
If anyone else is looking for a spare heater core drop me a message, I don't know prices or discounts for multiples yet but can ask.
The laser cut dash panel arrived today too (4 off to give me chances to cock it up). The new switches clip in nicely and the fit is perfect. What I cocked up on was the Double DIN aperture. The standard size is the external dimensions of the radio and that matches the internal dimensions of the cage. Which I forgot to allow for. Nothing half an hour with a scribe and a file won't fix. The panel will need folding to shape and trimming on the passenger side which shouldn't be a problem and it'll need a couple of folds too. Then I'll have a nice shiny ally panel to trim with some black vinyl to match the rest of the dash. That material will come of the old seat backs that I kept for reasons unknown. If I can separate the vinyl from the plastic back that is. Oh - I kept them as they have a date mark on them - sort of a souvenir. Not the date the car was made, just the date the seat back was done I suspect. Just In Time manufacturing probably wasn't a thing in 1980/81?
Guy
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Getting close to being able to button up the HVAC system. The new heater matrix arrived today at a cost of £190.80 for a one off. There is one row less than the original Lancia one, 12 vs 13 but I doubt that will make much/any difference. It'll be better than the old clogged one! There are minor differences but none significant and it fits into the heater box as intended. The ONLY modifications I can see are the valve flange is a slightly wider shape which means I ought to shave a bit off the side of the casing for a perfect fit and the valve will be held on with nuts on studs instead of bolts into captive floating nuts. I think that's an improvement. The last linear actuator also arrived last week so I think the last job will be sorting out the enlarged drain Eric is so keen to see!
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More work on the radiator pack install required. The mounting brackets are all made but there wasn't enough clearance for the fans behind the grill to push air through the aircon matrix. Luckily the eccentric mounts I'd made for the bottom of the radiator could be turned around to move the main radiator back to where it needs to be but the upper ones will need to be remade. Simple enough task for next week. The oil cooler brackets are also done but not as straight forward as I expected - the upper one is mounted to the rear face of the crossmember underneath where the strut brace bolts and who knew that that face isn't flat! It has some serious shaping to it that necessitated some judicious use of a hammer and dolly to get anywhere near a good fit. One more bracket to design/make to support the right side of the aircon radiator and I can button up the front of the car. I think that support will be built into the side ducting if the reach isn't too far.
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Lots happening but not much on the Beta. I ended up rethinking the oil cooler mounts and putting the rubber bobbins that insulate it from vibration on the inside of the cooler rather than outside. That way, should any nuts work loose/fall off it'll still be suspended. I also moved it slightly further back to align with the back of the water radiator so that meant Mark 2 brackets being fabricated. Last bracket for the left side of the car has also been made to direct air through the cores, fans installed on the front of the aircon radiator and a final trial install with the grille in place all shows enough clearance so the various brackets are now being powder coated and will be back next week. I hope!
I should have some photos to update the thread then as I finally fix that lot in place and finish the front end build. Next task is to finish are the mountings for the scroll compressor which will be fun as it's going to sit on the inner arch just in front of the chassis plate which will mean relocating the coil in due course. I can see that ending up under the slam panel to strut top bracket.
Decision made on the sandwich plate for the oil cooler too. I got one with the Guy Croft engine (never fitted) but the quality isn't great so I've opted for a T7 Design one for a Honda that has an integral thermostat and additional ports for senders (that I won't use) and an Accusump (which I probably will install once I've decided on size and install location - more credit card pain!). Reminder to self - order a longer central mounting bolt for the sandwich plate...
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Hi Guy on the Oil Fittings. Torques on eBay provide very good quality parts that are beautifully made. Far better than the rough cast and porous Mocal rubbish I had at one point and IMHO better than Goodrich quality. I am fitting the Accusump vertically in front of the battery. It needed a 90 degree fitting for the pressure gauge for clearance. Check out the photos of my build for this along with various nicely machined Torques hose fittings.
I spent plenty of time on the radiator and oil cooler fitting challenge. Which can be seen there as well. The custom radiator sitting on the lower cross member and tilted forwards was the solution for packaging and the bulk of the VX and Manifolds.
Eric
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Thanks for the input Eric, I can't tilt the radiators forward as it would push the fans through the grille (and I don't want to fit the later style shield grill to create a little more room).
With them sat on the crossmember there should be enough room for the twin 40's and I think the Accusump could be fitted on a bracket attached to the original lower radiator mounts. Just need to decide on which size/capacity is best suited to the twink.
Guy
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It's like Christmas has arrived early! Latest batch of powder coated bracketry was collected yesterday. 8 of the 10 parts are various radiator supports plus there's one for the air con dryer bottle and one that does underneath the rear of the car, behind the right wheel. I think that one protects the fuel tank and sunroof drain tube exits? Amazingly it's the original one and only had minor surface corrosion under the paint from 1981. I might get the radiators assembled (and out of harms way) over the next few days and the only bracket I need to design and have laser cut will be the single radiator fan support.
Guy
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Well the day after the last post I came down with flu.... Recovered enough (I thought) for Christmas Day and managed to cook the turkey and all the trimmings before the alcohol reminded me I wasn't fit still. Just about fully over it now, New Years is out of the way and if the cat doesn't need any more emergency visits to the vets I may be able to start making a little more progress!
And to that end I think I can declare the radiator pack installation done bar a little ducting for the oil cooler that a bit of rubber sheet will fix!
The side panels are now in place to support one end of the air con radiator and close off airflow to the sides of the oil and water radiators. The last task on this install was the main radiator fan, I was going to use the bosses on the sides of the radiator and get a custom bracket made but realised that this was pushing the fan back further than necessary. I fixed it with a set of through radiator pins before I remembered about the mounting channels taking up space top and bottom. Fortunately I hadn't trimmed the pins and could remove them. I ended up making some stand off mounts in the end to space the fan off before the pins were reinstated and trimmed.
The air con radiator is now in place too, I know it clears the back of the grille (just) but installation of that and the front valance and bumper will have to wait until the mount for the compressor is thought out and made. I don't want a solid mount to the body if I can avoid that but once it's in place I can plumb the air con system in.
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The whole radiator pack now sits on the front crossmember making the original lower mounts redundant for now. The radiator fan is mounted at the same plane as the back of the original radiator without its' fan cowling. This should leave sufficient room for the engine with twin 40's and a decent air filter. I'm going to see if I can utilise the original radiator supports as mounts for an Accusump - the positioning looks right for a short, straight hose run to the oil cooler sandwich plate.
It's so tempting to try dropping the engine in at this point.... But it's too early for now.
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There's an issue not yet resolved with the headlights..... Whilst they fit into the trim rings nicely enough they're deeper than the standard lights so they're protruding further maybe 15mm? I need to revisit this as it's preventing the surrounds going on nicely. I haven't worked out how to resolve this yet but I don't want to have to space the trims off the front crossmember if I can avoid it or they won't line up with the lower locating pin sockets...
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Guy,
Would the headlamp backing plate fit behind the bodywork in any way?
N
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Hi Guy
Did I miss the reasoning, but why have 3 radiator fans?
Peter
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Nigel - I don't think so, had a quick look at it but I'm not sure what the resolution will be yet. It may be that I need to get the car settled at its final ride height and adjust the beam pattern before finalising this. It appears to be the outer top mount that's fouling the front of the top adjuster screw. It may be possible to do a little surgery on the bracket to make clearance but that's the last resort and I'll wait until the lower valance is in place to locate the bottom pins.
Peter - one fan for the radiator, that's within the engine bay, and two for the air con radiator to give it the best chance of being effective at cooling the cabin.
Guy
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Hi Guy
Ok, it looked like the radiators are both together and you had one fan on one side and the others on the other side.
Peter
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My next struggle is deciding on the Accusump installation.. Not that's I've spent any money on one yet but have been taking advice from Chris (Betabuoy) and I've got my head around the mechanical installation, the control valving, the oil cooler sandwich plate and an additional dash warning gauge. What I haven't found yet is somewhere for it to live permanently. The initial hope was that it could be installed on the original radiator mounting brackets but that's not going to happen, not enough clearance. I'm down to an install on top of the engine subframe, horizontal near the alternator. I'm not sure about that yet as it's susceptible to potential damage from the alternator. The next possibility is underneath the battery tray, possibly underneath the washer bottle. There are also two vertical possibilities outboard of the strut tower to front crossmember but I think that there won't be enough room with the control valve and pressure gauge attached. The Accusump blurb does say these can be mounted elsewhere and plumbed in.
I have a funny feeling this won't get resolved until I drop the engine in.... And I'm not sure I'm at that stage yet.
Unless anyone out there has any ideas?
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I had brackets made to fit it vertically in front of the battery tray. It goes there neatly with one tweak which is a 90 degree adapter for the gauge on top. It actually mounts onto the structural metal running along the side of the engine bay.
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Tried it there Eric but that spot will be occupied by the air con dryer I think... If it doesn't fit underneath the washer bottle I may relocate that to the scuttle and mount it next to the battery. I probably need to put the engine and box in to finalise this part of the build even if it has to come out again!
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Tried it there Eric but that spot will be occupied by the air con dryer I think... If it doesn't fit underneath the washer bottle I may relocate that to the scuttle and mount it next to the battery. I probably need to put the engine and box in to finalise this part of the build even if it has to come out again!
I believe Chris had the benefit of relocating his battery (to the boot..)
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Now that's a possibility Tim. Given that I plan a wiring loom that's custom made I could relocate the battery there along with the fuseboxes and relays? That might lead to some big bundles running down the sides of the car though? Starter cable too... Hmm, maybe!
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Guy,
I certainly created some space by relocating the battery to the boot; otherwise, I generally kept my rewire to the standard loom pattern but with a modern fuse box hidden at the back of the passenger footwell (as opposed to cooking everything above the exhaust manifold 😂).
Chris
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Can I ask whereabouts in the boot Chris? I suspect left side behind the wheel arch! What did you use to keep it in place?
Since I'm starting the wiring loom from scratch I think that the majority of the fuses and relays (it might not have any if I go with the company I'm considering!) or control boxes could happily live in the boot. I have zero intention of leaving the fusebox and relays to be slowly roasted by the exhaust! Not having the fusebox in the engine bay will also improve access to the exhaust manifold.
The washer bottle is another slight issue for me. I've cleaned and polished the exterior of the one that came with the car but, like the expansion tank, nothing makes a difference, it still looks grubby. So, if the battery tray gets removed I see a plan coming together to make a custom one and have it anodised a nice bright blue so it matches the Accusump...
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Guy,
Boot LHS works very well for the battery.
I threw out the old washer bottle in favour of an after market item for flexibility. Incorporated fitting this amongst a series of brackets made for the Accusump.
Also ditched the expansion tank for a powder-coated alloy version.
Hope this helps?
Chris
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Thanks Chris, that helps a great deal as usual!
Sorry to the Austin 7 suffered a mechanical mishap on it's 100th Birthday. I'm sure you have it stripped, repaired and running like a sewing machine in the not too distant future!
Guy
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Guy,
I used an original Beta battery tray, on top of suitable brackets, when I
did this mod. Use of the normal battery clamp added to the advantage.
I would advise against placing the fuse/relay stuff so far away from what its
doing. I understand that your pax footwell may be filled with a/c bits, consider below
the pax seat as a possible position, or even on the floor just forward of either seat
(with suitable protection)
Nigel
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It's bloody freezing in the garage! Other than a little tidying up to make sure it was fit for inspection when Carl popped over at the weekend not a lot has happened. I have discussed mounting the air con compressor with Geoff Turton and designed a suitable set of brackets to carry it that should isolate the noise and vibrations from the pump from getting into the body shell. All the necessary parts are here so I'm hoping we can fabricate them later this week before getting them powder coated and installed in a couple of weeks.
And it felt like Christmas today when a parcel from Mark arrived! He sent me a few bits ordered before Christmas but also included the requested clear front indicator lenses I've been looking for for a while. I'll be using these with orange bulbs (maybe) if I don't like the switchover halo rings that are in the front lights otherwise it'll probably just be doubled up sidelights or switchover BAY15 white/orange LEDs.
Also included in the box were a pair of sun visors. I've got a pair already but they're mismatched new old stock ones I don't want to destroy. I'm going to retrim these old ones in Alcantara to match the headlining I've done already. In order to do this I needed to dismantle them in such way so I could find out how the were originally made. Fortunately it's not rocket science. Careful scrutiny revealed a French Seam at the top of the visor (If that's the right term for a fold of material stitched over on each side and then sewn along it's length to a matching side) and a simple seam around the remaining sides. There's a simple steel frame inside covered by some high density foam. This is failing on the ones Mark sent so needs replacing and I won't be replicating the vanity mirror mount or the little pocket on the drivers side. The frames need a little rust treatment and the outer stems cleaning up and painting black again but this is all straightforward work that can be done in a nice warm living room.
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Bracketry delayed by the passing of a pet in the fabricators family.... Know how that goes, I can wait.
In the meantime this trimming lark isn't as easy as people think! The frames are sorted out, de-rusted, welded, primed and painted. I got some stiff card and softer foam to pad them out and made a cover from the originals as a pattern but, unsurprisingly, the first one, being a trial and error one, turned out to be an error. Fit is fair around most of the perimeter with the corners probably needing to be hand sewn to get a better fit but I totally screwed up the part around the inner catch on this one, not enough material to sew it together and too much on the other side. 6/10 for this one if I'm being generous, I may undo it and see if I can move the stitches slightly tomorrow.
It took an hour or two to get the sewing machine working too but that's just me trying to remember where I left the instructions and having given up looking for them, experimenting to get it working sort of okay!
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And so today has been spent on housework in preparation for visitors but once that was done it was time to try something new! After the success of treating plastics on the Panda I decided to drag the centre console out and give it a clean. I actually have a spare one so started on that as it looked worse than the original as an experiment. I washed both with a stiff brush and washing up liquid before hosing them off and then applied the Owarol Polytrol with a toothbrush, working it into the surface and buffing it off before it became sticky. It's worked beautifully on the spare one but not so well on the original, I might give that a second treatment but if it doesn't work it looks like the spare one is going in the car! Really happy with how it turned out. Photo below shows the finished one and the original before i had a go at it. The original didn't change colour much...
Next practice piece will be a spare door mirror body. It should work just as well on them!
Guy
I tried this with my console upper part this weekend, it now looks worse! Muddy brown sort of colour. I might leave alone for the time being and look at painting in the summer
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Well done for trying guy, ive had a go at some trimming before and find it quite frustrating. Definitely practice makes perfect with this kind of thing. Im sure you'll get it.
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I've also used Owatrol on my exterior plastics i.e. C pillar and
mirrors, and had a really good result.
No real prep but I did clean any oil/grease/dirt carefully.
N
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Where do the weeks go? A week last week with Gerry and I'm off again tomorrow for a few days to help resolve phone issues down there so time has been hard to find for the Beta for a while. But there is progress. Not much. The bracket to support the air con compressor was designed and fabricated and is now back from the powder coaters and bolted onto the inner wing. The compressor sits in a tray and has been (temporarily) bolted in place to ensure I can get at all the fixing bolts to tighten them up. All that is left to do to complete the mechanical installation is to carve a rubber pad to support the inner edge of the tray and then start the plumbing of the system.
I'm getting to the point where I think I need to install the engine (again, temporarily) so that I can check for clearances everywhere and make decisions on the installation of the Accusump and battery (which I'd prefer to keep in the engine bay rather than the boot) at this point. In the end I went for the mid sized Accusump, it's still got a 2 quart/4 pint capacity so should be perfectly adequate for the car and should be an easier fit. I ended up getting this from a company in California together with the right electrical control valve (thank you Chris for letting me bounce ideas off you!) but it took forever to arrive, landing here about 6 weeks after purchase. Needless to say Duty and Taxes had to be paid but it saved about £100 buying it from Demon Thieves!
Anyway, photos attached, powder coated brackets for the air con pump, assembled brackets and installation. Should be sufficient to isolate any vibrations and noise from the cabin. I hope!
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And with the pump bolted in...
And with that, once the lower rubber is done, it's back to attempts to trim sun visors. And find a new home for the ignition coil.
Guy
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Another piece of the HVAC system ready for installation this week will be the heavily modified heater box. I need to complete some minor wiring for the linear actuators to a suitable plug and find some black draught excluder to replace what had turned to dust and disappeared leaving only a little glue residue on the top of the box. The same applied to the inlet door but I had something suitable to replace that in stock.
The heater box came from Nigel (thank you) and is the standard factory air conditioning one. If you look at the pictures below you'll see the recirculation flap behind the wiring guide channel, it's linked to the top flap so that it opens as the other closes. There's a new heater core in the casing with a new valve and seal from Mark. Again, pictures below show the actuators in open and closed positions I ended up with three 25mm throw and and one 30mm throw actuators, I could utilise the original mechanical linkage parts for most of the applications but one needed a plate making to shorten the pivot distance to give enough movement to fully open and close the flap that redirects air from the cabin vents to the upper and screen vents.
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And the other side. As described the right actuator opens and closes the redirect flap. The left one moves the heater core blanking plate and forces air underneath the core, no point in pumping cold air through a (possibly) warm heater that further restricts the flow of air.
There's a new three speed SPAL fan in the casing too, before I install the box for the last time I need to bench test this with the new three speed switch to ensure it all works correctly. And for that I need to download the switch wiring diagram so I can jury rig a loom, then it's just an 8 connection plug and socket and 4 nuts to being installed.
Eric advised me to enlarge the drain on the box in case it floods with condensate. I hope I'm not going to regret this but after a lot of looking and poking I decided that the existing air con condenser was too risky to try removing to access the base of the case. I could just move it enough to thoroughly clean the case of years of accumulated debris so I'm hoping that that plus opening up the end of the rubber drain pipe will suffice. If not then I'll have a small job to do....
Must put a small shopping list together for this weekends Practical Classic Show...
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There are a few redundant plastic brackets on the casing that I'll probably cut off and one metal cable bracket that I'll have to leave in place. It's riveted on from inside and getting at the rivet heads is impossible unless the air con core is removed. Trimming unwanted parts might make routing wiring easier later. I am not looking forward to that aspect of the build but it's looming large (sorry - pun intended) on the horizon. I may have to put the drivetrain in before embarking on that task though...
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Amazing work and I am intrigued by how you will be controlling the Electric actuators. On the Casing Drain the Monte box I started with was also a factory AC unit. This did not save me from the wet foot and in car cold shower when I cam e to use it on a trip to Turin. The larger drain stopped all that. I hope you have a better experience than I had by keeping the standard drain!
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Thanks Eric - I'm hoping that the switches I bought for the project will work exactly like a Beta window lift switch. Two middle feeds go to the actuator, there's a positive supply to top left and bottom right and earths to top right and bottom left. Closing the switches to the up position sends power on one side and earths the other and vice versa in the down position. Each actuator takes circa 5 seconds to extend or close and there's a limit switch built in to stop it over extending or overloading.
If the switches don't work like that I'm down to having a couple of relays and some head scratching to work out the circuits. It's not rocket science I hope.....
And if I do end up with a flood I can just remove the centre console, hacksaw the spigot off, enlarge the drain hole and bond on a larger tube...
Guy
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I'm chuffed that my car bits could be a part of your
amazing build!
Looking forward to seeing it sometime.
N.
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I hope so too Nigel. I went to see Carl today and check on the progress of his Facebook Beta. He's a braver man than me! In the spirit of this community he's getting a few of my spare spares that have mainly been donated to me or saved from being scrapped! So far it's a pair of rear windows, a couple of rear corner trims and clips, some S1 mirror glasses and a mirror stem. Identified and to be collected/delivered next time are my original radiator with fan & shroud and a pair of later series front wings that will provide some repair panels or be repaired and used instead, sadly they're the later overlap ones rather than the bolted butt joints.
Carl will need a few more parts... Back panel and boot lid stainless trims, a bonnet, S1/S2FL seats, probably in red velour, a bonnet, headliner for a 1600 (wish I'd kept my scrap pattern one!). He's got a black carpet but could do with a brown one (plus maybe the o/s stainless edge trim) and a boot carpet. Sun visors too. Probably a left door card and manual window winder. There'll be lots more to restore this car before it gets it's first ever MOT!
Guy
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I could see the "spirit of this community" from this forum, half the reason for buying a Beta
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Hi Guy
I should be able to help with some of those parts.
Peter
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Thanks Peter, I also realized that he'll need the radiator shrouds and I've got some of them used/good enough or brand new but I suspect Carl can resurrect my good enough ones and leave the new old stock ones for someone doing a silly level build...
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This morning I bench rigged the fans and the three position switch to test it and it all worked as expected (and hoped!) with a good flow of air out of the box. I wonder how good it will be in the car? I may find out later! The top of the box has also been draught excluded so the last job is to complete the actuator wiring and that's brought me to a temporary stop.
The switches I bought don't work like a Beta window switch which is pain in one way but a blessing in another as it means wiring them with the loads being taken through relays instead. And that's what I'll have to do for the window motors too. So, wiring instructions say I need to get two changeover relays per actuator. Each actuator will be connected to pin 30, terminals 87a and 85 are grounds and terminals 87 is power. I then have to connect pin 86 on each relay to the two power feeds from the switch and it ought to work.
If the instructions are right.
I feel the need to check a relay internal diagram to get my head around this one and bench test it. I also need to exercise the credit card (again) to buy eight micro changeover relays and bases and mount these somewhere suitable on the side of the air box with leads long enough to reach the centre console where they'll all be living!
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And diagram drawn and understood.
With the switch in the middle (off) position no power flows to either relay so both actuator wires on terminals 30 are grounded.
With the switch is pressed to the up position power flows to the first relay switching terminal 87a (earth) to terminal 87 (positive battery) sending current to the actuator via pin 30 with the other actuator wire remaining grounded through pins 30 and 87a on the second relay. This causes the actuator to extend.
With the switch pressed to the down position nothing moves on the first relay so pin 30 remains earthed for the actuator and pin 30 on the second relay becomes live via pin 87. The actuator then retracts.
Each of the actuators takes 5-7 seconds to make the full extension so there's plenty of control over positioning.
So now I'm sat here twiddling thumbs waiting for the postman to deliver £30's worth of micro relays and holders which clip together to form a neat row that I'll hide away never to be seen again. But somewhere accessible just in case I need to get at them!
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If you get stuck with this Tim Mountain in the Monte Consortium will save you. He built me an electronic control box when we were heading for far too many relays.
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Thanks Eric, I'm fairly confident I've sorted the wiring out for this and a dozen micro relays hidden on the front half of the center console underneath the air box is the solution for the actuators and the power windows too. The actuators have very small gauge wires so the loom can be small. The windows are going to need a heavier wire and higher amp relays.
Cheers
Guy
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Hi Guy
Hard for me to visualise this, but just wondered if a dual double throw switch might also work?
I had a play with an actuator for the tilting headlights on the HPE (to replace the original dead auto system) and that worked fine for me.
Peter
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A dual double throw switch might work Peter but as I've now got everything I need for the install bar the relays and a little wire (NEC Shopping list) It's sorted. I'll bring a pencil and sketch the diagram for you, it's remarkable simple with two relays and it'll stop all the current going through the switch for the windows in due course. The last part of this install will be cable routing and butchering the upper half of the centre console to accommodate five rocker switches and a heater fan knob!
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A dual double throw switch might work Peter but as I've now got everything I need for the install bar the relays and a little wire (NEC Shopping list) It's sorted. I'll bring a pencil and sketch the diagram for you, it's remarkable simple with two relays and it'll stop all the current going through the switch for the windows in due course. The last part of this install will be cable routing and butchering the upper half of the centre console to accommodate five rocker switches and a heater fan knob!
I think the window motors take c 10A so gauge the wire accordingly and a fused direct feed from the battery is recommended.....
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Thanks Tim, the intention for the window motors is to double switchover relay it the same way as the actuators, this will take the loads away from the switches. I'll make sure the wiring is up to the amperage needed.
Cheers
Guy
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Here's a thought for you guys with a running car and a working heater fan......
There's a flap in the box that blanks off the heater core from the airflow from the fan and directs it underneath the heater matrix into the distribution system. Is the airflow stronger with the blanking plate letting air through the matrix or underneath it?
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And why is he asking I hear you all say? Well, it's about symmetry on the controls. I will be having the switches for the four actuators on the middle console where the cigar lighter resides. I also want to put the switch for the air con there as well as the rotary fan switch. So, ideally two switches, rotary switch and two switches making 5 for neatness and symmetry. Except I've got four actuators with four switches and the rotary fan switch and the air con switch making 6.
But last night there was a light bulb moment! I realised that if I don't want to heat the interior the flap should be covering the matrix. And the heater valve should be shut too. And all the air should be forced under the matrix. You see where I'm going with this? Use one switch to open and close the flap and open and close the heater valve! Three actuator switches for four actuators plus the rotary fan switch and the air con switch = 5 and there's my neat symmetry.
Right - off to the garage to jury rig it and see if the actuators I want to act in tandem move the same distance at the same speed....
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when I pull my heater out \i was wondering if I could do away with the matrix and use an electric heater, just like would be used in an EV? I am also so tempted to bypass it, but then its not leaking at the moment, and am not sure it is even working
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On a damp start with Steamed up windows you will be wanting the heater. Once the Matrix has been de-scaled or replaced and a working control tap installed they do the job on the S2FL well enough. Of course over 40 years of use make for a noisy fan and when the plastic heater tap fails it is like a bee sting on your Clutch foot. But that is classic motoring! The Beta unit is far better than the Montecarlo wheezing old man or cannot hear yourself think approach.
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Hmmm. Electrically a jury rigged connection works just fine with both actuators moving full distance in nearly the same time. Before I called it job done and put the assembly in the car I thought I'd do one last check of the operation of the valve.
Blowing into the top pipe on the matrix with the valve open, no issues. Close the valve and I could still blow through it. Blowing through the valve in the closed position? Tried that and I could, so, the new valve doesn't seat/close fully. I think it's time for a rethink and maybe another type of valve that I can control with the actuator and fully close. Next research is into water flow direction, I assume it comes from the cylinder head into the top pipe on the matrix and out the bottom pipe and through the valve?
Bugger.
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Sat down with a cup of tea. Had a conversation with myself. If the motor doesn't pull it far enough to close the valve fully then it must be mounted too close to the valve. Or the lever is too long on the valve and the fulcrum would need to be closer to the centre of the valve. So, with a pair of needle nose pliers I bent the Z shaped steel lever bracket to effectively shorten the lever, made sure it was perpendicular to the motor and moved the motor mount back a few mm. All connected up again and now it seals properly, I can't blow through the valve. And after opening it and closing it a few times it's still shut tight. I think we'll call that problem solved. Now all I need to do is find one of those bloody spring clips that shot off somewhere in the garage and bounced off the bonnet as I opened up the casing again....
I also got an email to say the relays are arriving tomorrow so I may wire them up and find somewhere to put them on a dry assembly. Next week I may be removing the dash and heater assembly to put the last of the DynaShield on the bulkhead as I think all the necessary holes are there for coolant pipes etc etc.
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... are you blowing in the direction of flow or against it Guy. Some valves only seal one way. Might be worth a check.
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Both ways, but it's adjusted and seals now.
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I'm putting off the stitchery on the sun visors.. But not for long. I've been pondering the expansion tank for a while now. Mine, the bottom of the two in the picture, had seen better days. I've tried everything I can think to clean it up and make it presentable including putting it through a couple of cycles in the dish washer with a couple of tabs inside it, treating it with various things like mild acids and alkalis to remove the staining but in the end, only one thing worked and I'll get to that in a post or two.
I'd had the various brackets and fixings cleaned up and plated and, in anticipation of abject failure with the tank, bought a Fiat Ducato one. And whilst that one can be made to fit it's not a straight bolt on job sadly and I was faced with re-drilling various brackets to make it work.
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There's another problem with these original tanks you'll see where they fail, there are cracks forming around the central post on both, the cleaner, top tank is the worst plus there's corrosion in the steel of the filler necks all of which compromise the sealing and pressurising of the system. Mine has not failed at the post yet and a friend is looking at having a tool made so he can either recut the steel at the bottom of the tank to get rid of the surface corrosion and then have it replated. Or find a replacement neck that he can graft into the original tank.
So, here's a request, has anyone out there got a spare header tank without the crack in the post area? My friend borrowed a brand new one from another mate to put on his ex works Waldegaard Stratos and is no longer in the position to replace it. They want to replace the borrowed one with a patinated one in good condition...
Cheers
Guy
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And the header tank issue is sorted now for me.
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After every attempt to clean it, including some not listed and a lot of swearing I finally found out how it's done.
Buy a new one. Oh my poor credit card but thank you Fortunato Valenza for finding one.
Guy
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Hi Guy
Looks like I can repay the favour, I have a spare one, think it is ok, will check and get it sent off.
Peter
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Thanks Peter, you're digging a friend out of a very very very deep hole so there will be financial compensation for this one! Friendships are at stake!
Cheers
Guy
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Two days attempting to trim one sun visor and every attempt went tits up. Or worse. I need professional help with this. Someone with a decent sewing machine and the ability to use it...
Now decided that I need to admit defeat and engage a professional.
Know your limits folks!
Guy
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Guy,
Happy to share my method using card and leather, no stitching
and just superglue.
I always found the originals were too thick and never really seated in place.
My hack keeps them thin, but nowhere near original. And no mirror.
Nigel
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Thanks Nigel, I'm fairly set in how I want it to be. The headliner is my own work, all black Alcantara and it turned out how I wanted it, but straight lines are easy to do on a sewing machine for a numpty like me. However, using black cotton on a black background with my shortsightedness didn't work using the machine or by hand.
If it doesn't turn out how I want it then it's plan B. Sunglasses and no shades! Luckily I've yet to puncture the headliner for the visor fittings.
Cheers
Guy
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With Electric AC and a High Amp WOSP 175amp Alternator I have been plagued by V Belt slip when the AC is at maximum. I have used an idler to get more belt wrap and now a slightly larger alternator pulley. Use a Poly V belt or tooth drive if you can. Note I have a tooth belt drive set up from Croatia on my bench to work out how I make it work. The crank pulley is 28 tooth not 29 like a VX crank pulley toothed pulley so I will have to have a toothed crank pulley drive made to run the alternator WP and Volumetrico SC. Alan Young Engineering for this. If you are not using a VX or Volumetrico and have no need for an ECU trigger disc mount it is a great solution. I have some engineering drawings to do!
Eric
Took me a while to find this post Eric but I knew it was there somewhere! A frustrating couple of weeks with the sun visor trimming proving to be beyond my capabilities so I resorted to a professional, hope to get them back in a week or two.
I am getting to the point I need to start looking at the motor and gearbox so.a few days tidying up the garage and getting rid of dust and dirt. An engine stand was ordered (cheapie £45 one) from a UK eBayer but when it turned up the box was damaged and the wheels were missing. So, UK supplier, simple quick replacement. Nope. Turns out the wheels are coming from China and taking a while. They'll pitch up when I'm at Gerry's next week.
I've ordered a set of cogs for the water pump, alternator and crank with a toothed belt so I shouldn't suffer from belt slip there as per your recommendations. I assume I get them for the same supplier you did?
https://classicperformance-parts.com/product/fiat-124-131-132-ritmo-lancia-beta-delta-engine-toothed-pulley-kit-2000/
I think I'm going to see the wiring folk mid May to spec the system and discuss the size of the alternator I'll need to keep the car happy when the air conditioning pump is running. Then I need to source it - either a 175 or 250 amp one I would guess? Wosp probably as they list both for the Beta but finding a supplier may be an issue! Also need to consider water pumps, I'm not sure what's in the engine at the moment but there is a NOS one ready to go but it's a standard one and not a VX/Montecarlo one. That's probably a worthwhile upgrade at this point too?
Guy
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Hi Guy
Yes those are the folks.
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When i fitted an in head thermostat to the 2l HPE I also went overboard and fitted an uprated water pump and lower temp thermostat (circa 82 deg C from memory). These mods have transformed the temp the engine runs esp in traffic. Previously the engine ran really hot most of which was due to a dodgy thermostat and now i certainly feel a lot happier never seeing the temp guage going above middle!. I imagine the uprated water pump would help when running aircon and an uprated alternator?. Maybe also the lower temp thermostat?.
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Still not 100% sure about the delegation of sunvisor trimming to the "experts".
This what it ought to have looked like.
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And this is what came back, £80 for two. Materials supplied.
The main part looks great, it's lost a bit of body and shape near the mirror but the trimming around the clip was just amateurish. Nearly ripped it off to start again.
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But decided that an attempt to fix it was probably worth the effort. Much happier with the result now. Once they're installed in the car I think I can live with the exposed seams along the hinged side. One of my spare ones has the two halves folded over and stitched together before the two halves are then stitched together for a really neat finish. Unfortunately the pattern one I left with the trimmer had the two halves stitched together to leave a visible flange. Since the entire headliner is now black Alcantara I think it'll be fine in situ.
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It's been a busy month with Hawk Cars getting ready for a year end stocktake, preparing the final VAT return for the year and putting an Audit Standard accounts pack together for the accountants but, as that's what I did professionally for 40 years I think it ought to be okay. Preparation now underway for the Malvern Kit Car Show at the end of the month is taking up yet more time I want to spend in the garage on the Beta.
I had a day out at Simtek Electronics in Rochdale meeting Ginny and Jay and finalising the Bodylogic set up that will form the backbone of the wiring system in the car. It'll control all the lighting on the car plus wipers, horns, ignition, starter, alarm, immobilizer, central locking, battery cut off, heater fan, air con controls and a variety of other circuits too but there will be some for which a bespoke harness will have to be built such as windows, the HVAC system linear motors and the harness for the engine sensors and instrument panel. I've asked them to see if they can source the electrical connectors for the instrument plugs with the intention of building a sub harness to one socket so the ones on the back of the gauges never need disturbing again. I hope to collect the loom in a couple of weeks at the Malvern show.
I might get a few days on the car this month but really hope to get back deep into it from the middle of June now. an engine stand has turned up (6 weeks to get a set of missing wheels from China....) so there's a chance I'll be starting on that and the gearbox soon. I've had visitors too collecting some spare parts they needed for their rebuilds, duplicate parts given to me passed on to help others. A little space created in the garage/sheds is always good but the real creation of space will come as more parts get nailed in place!
I've not been quiet on parts sourcing either, there's a set of cogs and a belt on the way from Croatia to replace the water pump pulley, crank pulley and alternator pulley with a toothed drive. Eric advised this be done now and the loads that will go through the belt will be significantly higher due to the Air Con compressor. Having spoken to the electronics expert I've been advised that a 175amp alternator should be up to the task so that's going to be an expensive weekend for the credit card when I place the order for a Wosp Lancia 037 one...