Lancia Beta Forum
Technical stuff => Electrical => Topic started by: peteracs on April 02, 2023, 04:57:12 PM
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Hi All
Something which has had me wondering for a while is exactly how the connections to the wiper work to give the intermittent/slow/fast wipe. So had a quick play with the wiper motor isolated and some simple connections to the battery. These are my results which hopefully will help someone else. My reason for doing it was in case the intermittent controller goes out, I need to find a n other to replace it. Also with the HPE I was hoping to relay the supply to reduce the load on the column switches, a common burn out problem due to having the full current going through the contacts.
So on the wiper motor there are 5 connections.
Black - As expected earth
Grey - Fast wipe
Blue - Slow Wipe
Blue/White - intermittent start, moves wipers from park for short way
Blue/Black - intermittent finish, completes movement which is started by Blue/White, but stops at park position.
So, the intermittent wipe starts by a short pulse on Blue/White with Blue/Black permanently powered. Slow/Fast is controlled via a switch on the dash (at least on my pre facelift) so essentially you need 2 relays to bypass the feeds via relays if you want to totally bypass the switch on the column. There is however one thing which is confusing on the wiring diagram the Blue wire also goes to the intermittent controller, why I do not know at present, but further investigation is required……… will update when I have played further.
Peter
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Hi Peter
Great research. My experience is it is the fast wipe Grey wire that needs the relay because it simply does not give fast wipers until it runs via a relay. The intermittent wiring is one of the great remaining Beta Challenges for me. I would want an electronic delay device.
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Hi Eric
Yes, prefer electronic myself, but have ordered a modern wiper intermittent relay to have a play with and see if suitable.
I think I half understand why the blue wire is connected to the intermittent relay/timer, the one function which is still a mystery is how the wipers return to park AFTER the column switch is returned to the off position. Somehow the intermittent relay/timer powers the wipers until it reaches park and I suspect this has something to do with the blue wire, though some more playing around is required to work it out.
Peter
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Gents,
I've got a relay on the grey wire and it makes a huge difference
to the 2nd speed.
I tried the same method on the blue wire but it caused an interference ,i.e. it
slowed it down, because, I think, it's function relies on going
through the intermittent relay. So curing the slow 1st speed is going to
be a wiring fix rather than a relay addition...I hope.
It may well be that the problem is within the intermittent relay itself, or the wires
that feed it. Fitting a new column switch last year made zero
difference to anything. [except to have the indicator stalk on the other side.]
An alternative solution to the intermittent relay/function is needed. A new modern
relay with a knob to adjust the delay?
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Quoting myself: 'An alternative solution to the intermittent relay/function is needed. A new modern
relay with a knob to adjust the delay?'
I watch with interest!
The park function is carried out within the motor itself. There's a spring contact which is
fed power after the wipers are shut down, the internal cam breaks that feed at park.
Nigel
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Hi Nigel
Variable intermittent, that will have to wait…….
With this playing around I noticed that the slow speed wipe was actually slower than the intermittent speed wipe which I would guess is related to the intermittent having feed from the intermittent relay and the blue wire as well. When I have figured out the park on switch off and if this new relay can reproduce the required sequence, I will have a play with relays for the blue etc.
Peter
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Quick answer on how it parks with switch in off position. The Blue/Black is 12V with switch in off and intermittent positions. So the motor returns to to park.
Peter
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Hi
A bit more progress on what does what and when.
The intermittent wiper relay has 4 wires going to it on my car (no idea if they used a different system on later cars, anyone know or has a wiring diagram?).
Red is 12V when the switch is in intermittent and slow on the stalk.
Yellow is GND when the switch is in intermittent and 12V in slow on the stalk
Blue and Blue/White appear to become 12V only when the stalk is in intermittent and only for a short pulse every few seconds.
So on to trying out a modern alternative. There appears to be some commonality of both function and pin naming for various wiper intermittent relays. I have bought and waiting for a relay via Ebay called a ZT550 which is a Chinese one. The pin outs are as follows. I have no interest in using the washer function, much prefer to do the two operations as separate ones. Also these relays do not have a variable intermittent speed function, again not something I am that worried about.
Pin outs functions are as follows (I may need to revise this…) also existing wiring colours
I - Intermittent function enable - Red
31 - GND - Yellow
53M (53E?) - Power Output complete sweep, not sure this is useful - N/C
53S (31B?) - Power Output start sweep - Blue and Blue/Black
15 - +12V - Blue/Black
T - Washer function enable - N/C
Also to improve the resistance and current through stalk issue, it would take 3 relays, one for the main power after ignition switched on which supplies the relay above and then one for the supply to the non intermittent supply and finally an optional relay to switch the slow/fast. This could be left as simply using the dash switch of course which is probably of a sufficient rating as standard and does not limit the current significantly.
So just waiting for the relay to arrive to have a play with it.
Peter
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Hi
Relay arrived and had a quick play, wiring above proved incorrect, details on connection were somewhat misleading from the circuits I looked at.
So my final connections were
I - intermittent wipe enable - needs 12V to activate it so use Red wire
31 - GND so use Yellow
53M/53E - Pulse output so connect to wiper start so use Blue/White
53S/31B - This is the confusing one, needs to be connected to GND to get pulses on 53M, connect to Yellow
15 - main 12V in, so provides power to both relay and to wipers to start them, Red wire
T - washer function no use so N/C
The Blue/Black wire needs to be connected as original, ie direct to the wiper motor.
I hacked together a set of test wires direct to the wiper motor for the test, so the above is my interpretation of what I found. I was not going to be stripping out the wiring under the dash, life is too short for that when the Spider’s relay works fine. I would however be pretty confident it will work without issue.
Also this relay appears to come with various part numbers and suppliers.the only downside to it is that there is no option to allow independent mounting which would have been useful. Not sure if the orientation of the pins fit and standard relay socket.
Hope this is useful to someone in the future. I do aim to try to use it on the HPE rewiring.
Peter
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Hi Peter
Many steering columns/pedal box frames came with a spring clip that holds a relay. It is held in place with a single self tapper screw. When I finally finish packing the garage cupboards these will re-appear in my collection. You probably have some ignored in a bitza box.
Eric
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Thanks Eric
I will look out for it, I have forgotten how the original fits and not that enthusiastic to get upside down again….
Here is the pin out and photo for the relay just to complete the detail.
Peter
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That's a great help Peter, and appears to be
a solution for dodgy existing relays and a guide
to re-wiring the whole system.
Nigel
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Hi Nigel
I think the original relays appear reliable even after 40 years which I guess is a testament to how simple and well built they probably are and normally in the cabin, so most folk will not need to replace them. I have yet to see any request for them or for the hazard or indicator flasher other than to allow use with LEDs where you need to replace the flasher with a modern led compatible version. With that it is a simple like for like swap in general.
My reasoning is that I am rewiring the HPE and want to get all the fuses and relays together where possible and have holders for each relay and to try to keep the relays as modern cube styles so they can be arranged compactly. I know there will be a few outlying fuses and possibly relays, but where possible keep them together so fault finding etc is kept in limited places.
Peter
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Where on the vehicle is the "Windscreen wiper motor change-over switch"?
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Hi John
Where did you get the name from?
The only one I can think of which sort of describes it is the fast slow switch on the dash.
Peter
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Haynes refers to it as item 72. One of the attachment shows you the wiring of it. The Azzurro wire on pin 3 of item 72 goes to block connector 32 that sits between intermittent unit (30) and wiper motor (22). So it sounds "involved" in the wiper motor opperation
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Hi John
Yes, that is the low/high speed switch on the dash, it switches the voltage between the grey and blue wires. The feed is from the column switch grey/black wire.
Peter
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Haynes could be clearer.
The way it's drawn is the change over switch (72) is on the "wiper side" of the block connector (75) rather than the "stalk side", suggesting it's a separate component. It also suggests item 77 "windscreen wiper two-speed motor and washer motor control" is part of the stalk assembly and that matches your comments.
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Sorry just re-read your description. Is there a button on the dash? That might be the bit I'm missing (in understanding 1st and then on car 2nd)
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Hi John
The wiring diagram is for a pre facelift, so if you have a facelift it may be slightly different, but looking at a facelift dash there is a button on the dash just to the left of the column which has what looks like a wiper on it? On the pre facelift you have three positions for the wiper stalk on the column, off/intermittent/on, the switch on the dash gives slow/fast in the stalk on position. I am sure someone will come along and confirm if that is different on the facelift cars.
Peter
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Hi Peter,
On mine the stalk has 4 positions, off, int, 1st speed, 2nd speed.
No dash button, except for the rear wipe of course.
Nigel
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Hi Nigel
I did wonder if the facelift had it all on the stalk, unlike the pre facelift cars where the switch is in the centre console. Always confusing only having the pre facelift wiring circuits in Haynes as a lot changed on the later cars.
Peter
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Hi Nigel
I did wonder if the facelift had it all on the stalk, unlike the pre facelift cars where the switch is in the centre console. Always confusing only having the pre facelift wiring circuits in Haynes as a lot changed on the later cars.
Peter
Yes Peter, all on the stalk after facelift II.
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Hi Neil
But not the first Facelift?
Peter
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Finally getting round to some of the electrical problems and am tackling the slow wipers.
Blue wire when the block connector is disconnected is 0v
When connected it reaches ~8v, and injecting 12v brings the slow speed to life. What I can't work out is the path of the blue wire to a 12v supply. Any pointers?
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Search under Peter's posts I think he mapped this out as part of a wiring upgrade. Otherwise it is back to the wiring diagram for trace the wire.
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Hi John,
I tried going through the wire tracing process as I had the same issues,
i.e. very slow 1st speed.
I never did find the problem, but a full re-wire of the system cured it.
I replicated all the wiring colours and made a new loom.
There are only 3 connector points, the column switch, the intermittent relay and
the wiper motor. I didn't need to involve the hazard switch in my work, that still functions
as normal.
I still suspect that the cause is very high resistance on old cabling, the copper core
that looks black when exposed.
Nigel
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This was what I found.
http://www.lanciabeta.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1936.520
Peter
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I'm in 2 minds about changing the stalk assembly, or at least cleaning out the contacts. Worked wonders on a old Marina I used to own.
From what I'm hearing, I could temporarily take the blue wire from the switch and run a new one to the motor to prove it's high resistance Vs issue in stalk assembly.
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I'm in 2 minds about changing the stalk assembly, or at least cleaning out the contacts. Worked wonders on a old Marina I used to own.
From what I'm hearing, I could temporarily take the blue wire from the switch and run a new one to the motor to prove it's high resistance Vs issue in stalk assembly.
So I have slow and/or intermittently working wipers on my new to me Beta. What would be the consensus plan of attack? Is it worth cleaning all the contacts at the stalk end and removing the mech and motor for a strip down, clean and re-grease first, then go to the top of this post and re-read and then proceed?
Mark
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Hi Mark
Apart from a faulty motor, there are two issues common with the wipers, first is poor contacts from the stalk and other connections and in the mechanism where the spindles that go through the scuttle to the outside world, these are often not as free as you would like..... To free them off and lubricate normally requires removal of the wiper assembly, though it may be possible to do in situ by removing the wiper arms, running the motor and applying some lubrication to the spindles.
Peter
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So today after running it temp after the cam-belt I had the cowls off the switch stalks ready for a new steering lock, I think I spied a little puff of smoke. I will strip it down this week and investigate. Battery off at the moment.
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Smoke is never good and I hope it was your imagination! Check the wiring to the ignition switch isn't chafing on the steering column, mine has the plastic tube worn through around the pivot for the steering wheel and the wiring within that was scuffed too....
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sorry opening old posts and then realised I have been here also :-)
my other post:
I need to look at this. Did everyone get to a happy place in the end?
I and going to start with a strip of the mech and check out what it feels like. I know its not the answer but have ordered a lhd switchgear to swap this over, plus I have a new ignition switch to fit.
M
So do as above and if all else fails replace the wiring as Nigel did?
M
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Mark,
I removed the wiper assembly, stripped out the stalk shafts and cleaned and lubed
everything, then ran it on the bench.
The rack can be a fiddle to remove, patience and care required.
(whilst it's out it's a good time to rust-proof the underside of that scuttle)
This didn't solve the slow wipers once back in the car, hence the rewire.
N.
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Roger that Nigel :-)
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Hi
This is a bit of an update albeit many months on.
I took thr opportunity to open up the original intermittent relay and now can reveal how the blue is wired, all fairly simple if not obvious.
So my original connections for the new relay I was trying which worked was as follows.
I - intermittent wipe enable - needs 12V to activate it so use Red wire
31 - GND so use Yellow
53M/53E - Pulse output so connect to wiper start so use Blue/White
53S/31B - This is the confusing one, needs to be connected to GND to get pulses on 53M, connect to Yellow
15 - main 12V in, so provides power to both relay and to wipers to start them, Red wire
T - washer function no use so N/C
The Blue wire from the original relay is connected to to the red +12V whenever the Blue/White is disconnected from the 12V. Not sure the new relay can do that, so may need a separate changeover relay to effect this. I have now made up a relay to replace the original without the blue wire and will see how it gets on.
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Hi
An update on the replacement for the wiper intermittent relay. Actually a bit of a fail, but I now understand fully the required actions of the relay, I missed a couple of important points......
The relay has 4 wires going to it, the motor has 5.
Relay connections
Red - +12V from stalk when in int position
Yellow - GND from stalk when in int position
Blue - +12V when relay activates
Blue/white - Pulled the GND when relay is NOT activated, ie when Blue is NOT 12V
Wiper connections
Black - GND permanent connection
Grey - +12V Fast speed continuous
Blue - +12V Slow speed continuous fed by stalk AND Intermittent fed from relay
Blue/White - As per relay above, GND when Blue is not +12V, used to bring the wipers to a halt
Blue/Black - +12V in int position, this powers the motor UNTIL it reaches the park position, then stops, also
used to park wipers when switched off, fed from stalk.
I am therefore going to have a further look at the modern relay and see if it is possible to use it to fully reproduce the needs above......
Peter
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I tried to connect the battery direct to the wiper motor and nuffin. I am now trying to remove the unit, hell this is hard! Any tips, drivers wiper spindle will not budge.
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Hi Mark
It is a bit awkward to manipulate it out , but when you say it will not budge do you mean after you undo the nut and remove the plastic piece it will not press down?
Peter
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sorry bad choice of words. Its loose, both spindles fully loose and the two nuts out. Do the wipers need to be in specific position? It here a technique ie one spindle out and move the motor to the right type of thing?
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Hi
Normally at park position and yes it is a bit of a fiddle to get the whole thing out. Canoot say definitively, but you have to keep moving it and eventually you will find a sweet spot where the spindles can go low enough and the whole assembly can be removed. Sorry cannot explain better….
Peter
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(y)
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Peter's right, Mark.
I've had mine in and out several times, and once you solve it you'll wonder why
you struggled in the first place. It's a rotational motion you're doing.
Watch out for very springy C clips which love to fly into unknown corners of your room.
N.
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Aka ‘Jesus clips’ …
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Okay so I first tried again now in better light. So still not working.
I could see the mech was in the way on the drivers side. I ran power to the connection on the motor moved the mech and hay presto out it came.
So here’s a thing. I thought it was dead. So maybe I have a problem connection. Running power to slow and fast connection it’s all good. Should the park connections do something?
Bench investigation to commence
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Hi Mark
Quick test is put gnd to black wire and +12V to blue wire, the motor should run at lower speed, remove from blue and put power to grey wire and should run at fast speed.
Next remove power to grey and put power to blue/black, this may move motor at slower speed momentarily until it stops or may not move. apply power to blue momentarily to get motor running and remove, leaving power on blue/black, the motor should keep running until it reaches the stop/park position. if all that works, then the motor is ok.
Peter
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I will test this later on the bench
Thanks Peter
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Nah baring the fast and slow it’s dead
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This could be it. Blue black term has melted and moved
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Hi
Well after a few false starts and destroyed chips, I now have a working prototype circuit for variable intermittent wipers. The real work now starts on packaging it suitable to actually use in the car. I need 5 terminals and first thought is to use the body of a 5 terminal relay, gut the inside and retain the terminals and casing.
I did note Steve is handy with a 3D printer, so may be asking for some assistance if he is so minded!
Peter
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add me to this list. One day I will have the appetite for this :-)
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That's very cool.
I hope to see this operating tomorrow morning!
N
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Hi
Well after a few false starts and destroyed chips, I now have a working prototype circuit for variable intermittent wipers. The real work now starts on packaging it suitable to actually use in the car. I need 5 terminals and first thought is to use the body of a 5 terminal relay, gut the inside and retain the terminals and casing.
I did note Steve is handy with a 3D printer, so may be asking for some assistance if he is so minded!
Peter
Happy yo help in any way
Cheers
Steve
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Hi
Thanks for the offer. I have a 5 pin flasher relay coming to act as a donor and see if the case is big enough to house the components.
Nigel visited today and we had a look at the int wiper relay on his which is the later style used (I only have the early style). The p/n on the case which is a standard 4 pin plug in relay style is Sipea 0599.
Peter
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Hi
I have spent time over the last week or so doing a PCB which will fit into the case and connectors of the flasher unit I received. Always amazes me how good the online PCB design software is and just how easy and cheap it is to have a PCB made. I pushed the buy button this evening and ordered the components as well.
Hopefully should get everything over the coming couple of weeks and then give it a go. I have designed it so it can be configured either as a fixed period intermittent wipe or as a variable one.
Peter
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Hi
Interesting service from the PCB manufacturer based in China. I uploaded the Gerber file and received the quote automatically on Monday. I then paid for it at 17:56, receiving a confirmation of acceptance just after. I then received an email saying the PCB was ready for collection by DHL on the Wednesday morning before breakfast time, so essentially a 1 day turnaround and the cost is next to nothing. DHL shipping is over 20x the cost of the 5 boards I ordered, total is still only $28.......
To get that service in the UK would cost a whole lot more. Very much a horses for courses situation.
I have sourced the components from UK suppliers which are already here and waiting. The DHL shipment is due by close of play Tuesday, so just a week to turn the whole job round to where I can assemble it. Total cost so far is around the £47 inc shipping and the donor relay.
Note the yellow cap is one I had as I forgot to order a surface mount one...
Peter
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Hi
Well DHL were well pessimistic with their delivery dates. They collected Wednesday and it arrived with me Friday lunchtime, not bad from China.
I built up the board today which was amusing as the small 0603 surface mount resistors are tiny and my eyesight is not what is was! The previous boards I used to make used 1026 parts which surprise surprise are twice as big and you can read the values printed on them.
Anyway after building it up and tweaking some of the resistor values I now have a relay which can replace the existing fixed frequency intermittent relay. What I realised when I got the boards back and revisited my diagram is that I had made a mistake and put the position of the variable resistor across the wrong resistor and as a result to do this I need a 6 pin relay, not 5. So back to seeing what 6 pin ones are around and looks like there are some low cost fuel pump relays which use 6 pins in a standard layout, so have ordered one. When I have that I can remake the board to suit and hopefully will give the desired result.
Peter
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That is very neat
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Thanks, hoping to get the 6 pin relay this week to see what mods I need to make to allow for variable wiping.
Peter
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Hi
6 pin relay arrived and pin construction very different. So have modified the board to suit and ordered 5 boards Monday evening, as before they shipped from China Wednesday and should be with me Friday. Still cannot get over cost/timescale of this, wish it was around 25 years ago when I was producing prototype and production boards for projects. The costs then were 10x to get prototypes what I am paying now......
So next week hope to have a board built and tested ready to try out in the Spider.
Peter
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Hi
Finally got my finger out and finished building the board and attaching to relay base. Tried it as both fixed and variable intermittent using the HPE motor out of the car. Now I am happy with it will finish the small interconnect loom and try in the Spider.
Peter
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Hi
Finished the loom and tried it in the Spider and it functions pretty much as expected, but noticed that I still need to tweak the fixed resistor values as on minimum delay it was not coming to an abrupt halt which means my min timing period is too short. However pretty happy with it and now working on a suitable knob for the aria le resistor.
Peter
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I made up this (well the previous owner did - but it did not work properly) on a RS pin board and stuffed it into a cassette holder and up in the central console. The little VR is mounted discretely on the front of the cubby hole. It works well
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Hi Tim
FYI this is the circuit I used which uses the same timer, just detail differences to accommodate the Beta motor and mirror the original 'hot metal bar' relay I had in the Spider.
Peter