Author Topic: Engine Oil (Read 10945 times)

the_matrix_master · « **on:** May 17, 2013, 10:28:19 AM »

I expect this topic has been covered many times before but here goes

I am interested in what grade of oil members are using in their betas ~ mineral, semi synthetic or full synthetic.
For years I have allways used 10/40W mineral oil in my Beta Spyder and Montecarlo for no other reason that it was standard at the time the car was made.
10/40W basic mineral oil was allways substantially cheaper than the equivilent 10/40w semi synthetic oil coupled with that most semi synthetic oils state on the bottle suitable for cars built after 1990 so hence I have steered away from these.
However now I notice that the price of semi synthetic 10/40w is very close if not the same as that of basic mineral oils.
Since the semi synthetic is supposed to afford the advantages below
Has /is anyone running on semi synthetic and have they noticed any difference

Advantages of Semi Synthetic
Measurably better low- and high-temperature viscosity performance at service temperature extremes
Better chemical & shear stability
Decreased evaporative loss
Resistance to oxidation, thermal breakdown, and oil sludge problems
Extended drain intervals with the environmental benefit of less oil waste.
Improved fuel economy in certain engine configurations.
Better lubrication during extreme cold weather starts
Longer engine life
Superior protection against "ash" and other deposit formation in engine hot spots (in particular in turbochargers and superchargers) for less oil burnoff and reduced chances of damaging oil passageway clogging.
Increased horsepower and torque due to less initial drag on engine
Does not contain detergents

lukasdeopalenica · « **Reply #1 on:** May 17, 2013, 01:18:43 PM »

I use semisynthetic 15W50 (Motul Classic) and is just fine.

cheeky monkey · « **Reply #2 on:** May 18, 2013, 06:12:08 PM »

i've alternated between 10w 40 semi synth and Penrite 20w 50 mineral in recent years

lukasdeopalenica · « **Reply #3 on:** April 07, 2016, 07:45:00 AM »

May I use Shell Helix Ultra Racing 10W60 which actually is mineral hydro cracked oil not synthetic? What do you think about such a change? My engine was rebuilt, but when hot oil pressure is just not sufficient. Before I strip down it again I would like to try something simplest.

WestonE · « **Reply #4 on:** April 07, 2016, 10:20:29 AM »

OK

I have to stay calm with this reply. I am ex oil company from the Lubricant division so I have had to learn a lot about engine and gearbox oils and I run a 277 BHP Montecarlo. These engines have primitive oil pumps by modern standards and run large engineering clearances compared to modern vehicles even before wear takes place. This means oil drain back and time to running oil pressure are both issues. 20w 50 in any formulation is a poor choice because great care is needed to warm the engine under no load before use. This might work for racers but not for road use. The cold oil number should be as low as possible. So a 0W 50 would be great for road cars. However practically 10W 60 is a very good spec for our engines and what I recommend to avoid unnecessary damage from start up and warm up. It will also give solid oil pressure resisting heat and load demands.

By definition 10w 60 will be either Semi-Synthetic or Synthetic Chemistry with a lot of misleading marketing hiding chemistry that is not in reality fully synthetic. Some US Oil companies have been allowed to call semi-synthetic oils synthetic!! However anti-wear agents like ZDDP being present maybe more important for road use as this gives protection at start up and in oil surge which Betas suffer from unless a baffled sump is installed. Be aware that ZDDP has been reduced in some oils in recent years to protect Catalyc convertors.

In my Montecarlo I have a baffled sump an oil cooler and an Accusump Pre-Oiler and surge protector. I use Miller Oils CFS 10W 60 in my Montecarlo and I have due to a new higher compression piston install (300BHP spec) inspected the engine components and I am happy with what I found.

I hope this will help people on here to make a more informed choice.

Eric

mangocrazy · « **Reply #5 on:** April 07, 2016, 11:31:51 AM »

Thanks Eric, very helpful. For initial running in of a fully rebuilt engine, what grade of oil would you recommend? Iseem to recall GC stating that you shouldn't use fully synthetic oil when running in a rebuilt engine as it inhibits proper bedding in of the mating surfaces. Would you agree with this?

I've always tended to the old-school method of warming the engine up fully before applying load, but realise that this isn't particularly practical in the real world. When I finally manage to get my Spider 2000 engine rebuilt with all its new components I'll definitely be using 10W60 synthetic as per your recommendation.

lukasdeopalenica · « **Reply #6 on:** April 07, 2016, 03:24:58 PM »

Thank you Eric for your clarification. I only run my beta in warm sunny days, so there are rather no cold starts in my case.
The mentioned shell racing is more mineral than synthetic, even the manufacturer claims it is fully synth., what is just a marketing bullshit. I was rather wondering if it has no additives like detergents which can be harmful for engine parts eg bearings etc, similarily to transmission oils containing EP additives that damage synchromesh.

WestonE · « **Reply #7 on:** April 07, 2016, 04:13:31 PM »

Graham

For a re-built engine with a re-bore or new rings and a hone a running in oil is the best idea and this is always a mineral oil that will allow the bores and rings to gently wear into each other. It is not in the engine long though before an oil and filter change to a normal running oil.
With new cams you would also coat them in anti wear lubricant just before start up so they can bed in running at 2000 rpm to form a hard surface for long term use. This is all well described in GC's books.

Detergents and dispersants in modern oils are not a threat to engine components and are very important as they stop black sludge forming and blocking fine oil drillings. The oil carries the carbon from combustion within itself so it leaves the engine at drain down oil changes. Oil left in place too long can drop the sludge out and form acid compounds that attack the internal metal work in the engine. Hence an engine left unused for a long period after running and no recent oil change can have acidic oil and benefit from a oil change to clean the engine then a change to normal running oil.

I hope that helps.

Eric

mangocrazy · « **Reply #8 on:** April 07, 2016, 11:20:55 PM »

Hi Eric,

Many thanks for that. I've been doing some digging on Opie Oils site (I tend to buy most of my oil from them) and found this regarding a running in regime using Millers Oils CRO 10w-40 Competition Running In Mineral Engine Oil:

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/millersoils/Millers-Oils-CRO-How-To.pdf

I'm guessing that this kind of regime would need either an engine test-bed facility or dedicated dyno time?

WestonE · « **Reply #9 on:** April 13, 2016, 08:54:06 PM »

Hi Graham

Yes that running in routine would be at a rolling road on a new engine. This is something I have done a couple of times now with new engines before real mapping starts on fresh oil and a new filter. I like Opie Oils as they also sell the excellent Mahle filters.

you can of course run in on the road if you are certain about jetting and this is described in Guy's books.

Eric

mangocrazy · « **Reply #10 on:** April 15, 2016, 07:04:18 PM »

Thanks, Eric. I suspect that when it happens, my engine will have to be run in on the road. But with Guy's recommendations on jetting, I can't see the mixture being very far out, if at all.

Ferrit · « **Reply #11 on:** October 20, 2026, 05:21:03 PM »

I was wondering giving Miller Oils CFS 10W 60 a try for my next oil change? I have been running Total Quartz Racing 10w50 since I first changed the oil. I have an analysis sat on the shelf as a left over from my van engine work so thought I would send this off just for the hell of it.

TonyTorque · « **Reply #12 on:** **Today** at 10:22:34 AM »

An analysis would be a good way to settle it, especially if you send a sample of the Total before you drain it so you have a baseline to compare the Miller against. I'd keep an eye on the zinc and wear metal figures between the two. Did the earlier analysis you've got on the shelf come with a pre paid return kit?

Ferrit · « **Reply #13 on:** **Today** at 10:52:42 AM »

yes. I will do this early next month

Mark

lancialulu · « **Reply #14 on:** **Today** at 11:03:21 AM »

I use Millers 10-60 FS Nano in all my Lancia Fulvias with no complaints or issues. I intend to use it when I come to give (in the v near future) my VX coupe its first oil change in my ownership (zero miles since buying but 170k on the clock) unless folk here think that is not a good idea. I know Nigel uses something cheaper (Mannol?) but with my experience of Millers with its triple ester which purports to keep oil seals pliable..... Any comments?

WestonE · « **Reply #15 on:** **Today** at 11:56:21 AM »

Nothing wrong with Millers CFS 10W 60 for our engines. Good lubrication hot or cold, good cleaning and crud carry out and supports decent oil pressure.

rossocorsa · « **Reply #16 on:** **Today** at 01:36:48 PM »

I use Millers CFS 10W50 NT+ in my 2016 Abarth and it could be a placebo effect but I think that you can feel the difference in how it drives compared to the selenia equivalent.

A Ross · « **Reply #17 on:** **Today** at 01:45:33 PM »

I use Valvoline VR1 10w60 in both of my Betas as per GC's reccomendation on a video he put out a few years ago. I pair this with a Mahle filter - there are two available for the Beta - OC383 with the single non-return valve and OC473 with the double non-return valve - I opt for the double non-return valve version if I can find them.

10w 60 seems to be the general consensus for reccomended oil grade for our Betas - I have always wondered about the benefits of different brands - I run Valvoline, but see Shell, Motul, Millers and Penrite mentioned here and wondered if 6 years after Guys video the game has moved on and there are better oils out there now? I note that the Valvoline I have been using is listed as fully synthetic - but I am taking Erics comment on board with regards to 10w60 not being fully full synthetic. I also note that all 10w60's listed by Opie Oils are "full synthetic"

Link to Guy's video below - he talks about oil in the first couple of minutes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38SjJghuJuU&t=109s

Link to the oil I have been using here:

https://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-73740-valvoline-vr1-racing-10w-60-premium-fully-synthetic-engine-oil.aspx

I think I need a lie down now!

Alex

Ferrit · « **Reply #18 on:** **Today** at 07:57:42 PM »

Thank you for this Alex I will 10w60 a go. Filter wise I have a oil filter housing the same as a VX and am limited with clearance to the subframe. I didnt know there was filters with NRV and filters with 2x NRV. I will investigate if I can get something similar.

rossocorsa · « **Reply #19 on:** **Today** at 08:00:40 PM »

Quote from: Ferrit on Today at 07:57:42 PM

Thank you for this Alex I will 10w60 a go. Filter wise I have a oil filter housing the same as a VX and am limited with clearance to the subframe. I didnt know there was filters with NRV and filters with 2x NRV. I will investigate if I can get something similar.

If you are using VX size filter WIX seem to be good, weighty and well made. I've never heard of a double non return valve either, how is that achieved?

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Author Topic: Engine Oil (Read 10945 times)