Ignition problem (I think!)

[Thotos]

I have an intermittent problem with my Trevi  It runs for about 10 minutes to half an hour and then the engine just dies. After a few minutes (anything from half an hour to an hour) it starts again and runs for a while... then dies. The problem must be either lack of fuel or lack of spark and I'm fairly sure that there's no spark when it dies. I've replaced the coil and the electronic ignition control module but the problem is still there. So I suspect it may be the trigger/pickup in the Bosch distributor. Are these available as replacement parts or do I need to replace the distributor? I've had a look on ebay but can't find any for the Bosch distributors.

[Neil-yaj396]

Theo

I'm not sure I'd rule out a fuelling problem yet, especially as you've changed some major ignition components. I can't remember if your car is injection? Either way could it be dying when the fuel boost/choke comes off?

Neil

[lukasdeopalenica]

I had fought with a similar symptom. I started dealing with fuel system - filter, pump, pressure regulator, fuel tank, pick-up etc. No results, then switched to ignition. Coil was also ok, finally it was changing of ignition module that solved the problem.

[WestonE]

Theo

Getting the pickup sorted will be a re-build by H&H Ignition solutions and you will have as close as you can get to a new distributor. Do also check for hot fuel evaporation as an issue i.e. try heat shielding the fuel pipes under the car that are close to the exhaust and look at anything that controls fuel re-circulating/ returning to the tank.

Good Luck

Eric 

[Thotos]

Thanks for all your suggestions guys. My Trevi Automatic is 1995cc with carburettor so no chance of injection problems. I am 99% sure it is ignition as once I managed to stick a screwdriver at the end of a plug lead and there was no spark when cranking. The fault certainly seems electrical/electronic as it runs fine and then just cuts off as if the ignition or turned off. No coughing or splattering or misfiring. When it's revived it just starts instantly so fuel starvation or flooding is extremely unlikely. The ignition electronic module was my guess as coil or distributor pickup are unlikely to have intermittent faults. It's a used unit that I fitted so maybe it's got the same fault? Since someone else had this same problem maybe it's a common fault? Maybe I'll take the known-to-be-good unit off the Gamma (same ignition system) and try it on the Trevi. Knowing my luck I'll end up with two broken cars.....

[Neil-yaj396]

I have an old ignition unit that I can lend you if it helps, and a distributor with a brand new pick up in it (just minus the vacuum advance unit). Wouldn't be until the next meeting though (11th May).

[thecolonel]

Theo, if it's the same as the gamma I have a few black ignition units and distributors
You nay be able to canibalise parts, I'll bring them to Goodwood.
I purchased dizzy parts from a Bosch agent in Winchester.

[thecolonel]

Robert Bosch parts suppliers...
Unipart Lincoln road, 0208 8043062
Enfield car spares, baker street 0208 3672255
Allparts auto, unit 4, Trafalgar trading estate.

[Thotos]

Update: I replaced the electronic ignition module (black box) with a spare Gamma one I had. It looked new and was in original Fiat/Lancia box. The car run idling for about 40 minutes and just as I thought "it's fixed!" it cut off  So it's not the ignition module and it's definitely an ignition problem as I managed to test for a spark again when it wasn't running. I also measured the resistance/impedance across the wires from the distributor and there's nothing while I would expect something if there's a coil at the other end of the wires. The plan was to check again once the car started but when I tried about an hour and a half later it still refused to start. I'll try again tomorrow...

Geoff, an old Gamma distributor would be nice    I'm sure I can transfer the pickup from it to the Beta distributor.
Unipart closed down last year! Their Lincoln road shop is now a Eurospares shop and they are quite useless as they ask for the registration number and then just give you what their computer says. I bought a Gamma battery from them and they supplied the wrong one but insisted that it was the correct battery for my car because "the computer said it was"    I miss Unipart....

Neil, thanks for the offer but I hope to have the Trevi fixed and in use before the next meeting which I thought is on Sunday 17th May and not 11th. I know because it's the day before I go to Vienna for the Eurovision Song Contest!  There's no vacuum advance on my Trevi's distributor. Where and how did you manage to get a brand new pickup?

[Neil-yaj396]

Sorry Theo, I've made you a duff offer anyway. All my stuff is Marelli (only used on 1300 Betas I think?) and yours will no doubt be Bosch. I bought the distributor and it came with a new pickup. The Marelli pickups appear on ebay now and then too.

You are right about the meeting date. The week before is GNW.

[WestonE]

Theo

H&H can test the whole system for you and probably source the broken bits. Bosch are in Denham and have a technical support phone number if you have the Bosch part numbers they can probably give you up to date numbers and a source of supply as they did for a starter motor for me some years ago.

Eric   

[WestonE]

Theo

I forgot to say check out the ignition switch just in case as they have a high failure rate and no power is no spark.

Eric

[lukasdeopalenica]

I thought exactly the same as Eric. Check the voltage at the coil primary side that can be variating. It is sourced from ignition switch that can be faulty. I would try to suply it just for testing directly from the battery. Check also wiring and the coil.

[Thotos]

Supply to the coil was the first thing I checked and it's fine and so is the ballast resistor. I really don't understand why the resistor is there as the coil, having taken it off to replace, is a 12V coil!

Neil, thanks for the offer but as you say, I have the Bosch system on the Trevi. My Fiat 131 has the Marelli ignition and I think it's the better system. I should be putting that to good use at LMC track day at Goodwood this coming weekend 

Thanks for the H&H tip Eric. I'll see how I get on with Geoff's old distributor and if I confirm the problem is with the pickup then I'd like a new one to be sure it'll last a few years 

[Neil-yaj396]

Enjoy the track day, the 131 probably is the best of your steeds for that. It was good to hear that all the slots were filled this year, so hopefully I might make it to Goodwood next year.

[swedgamma]

If you need the coil thats within the distributor I have one with Lancia number 82349892-10,Bosch number 1234211006000.I have no partsbook from these years so I can not confirm its the right one,but parts number that starts with "823" usually is Betaparts(exept for a few old Flaminia parts)

Greetings from Sweden

Urban(Swedgamma)

[Thotos]

OK, I'll now say 100% sure there's a problem with the distributor pickup. I'm surprised that a passive component as a coil of wire has an intermittent fault but it does. I put an ohm meter across the wires this morning and I measured 1K Ohm (it was totally open circuit when the car stopped working a couple of days ago). I connected the distributor and Trev started instantly 

Urban, thanks for the offer. I'll see if I can find any numbers on the distributor pickup and I'll post a picture here so you can compare with yours. I'll see if I can find a replacement closer to home first but it's good to know you have one that you are willing to sell me. How's the Gamma? 

Geoff, an old distributor at Goodwood tomorrow would be nice   

I'll see see some of you at Goodwood tomorrow when I'll be in my Magnetti Marelli ignition powered Fiat  (none of this German Bosch rubbish.....  - only kidding of course  )

[Thotos]

Firstly, a BIG thank you to Geoff thecolonel for bringing me all those Gamma ignition parts to Goodwood on Saturday. 

The Gamma distributor pickup looks very similar to the Beta one but it's not exactly the same. The coil has a different connector and the mechanism that holds the coil in the Gamma is different in that it can be moved by the vaccuum advance mechanism which doesn't exit on my Trevi. In fact it seems that Bosch make just the one mechanism but in the Trevi (Beta) it is 'locked' in position by an extra metal pin that fits in a hole in the base plate. So I used the Gamma coil in the Beta distributor and all seems to work fine. I didn't have the time nor the fuel in the car to keep it idling for over half an hour to see if the problem is fixed but I am confident enough to attempt to go to work in the Trevi tomorrow  So listen to the London traffic reports in the morning and if you hear that there's a jam on the A13 due to broken down car then I haven't fixed it 

Geoff, if you are going to Brooklands on the 2nd of May I'll give you back all the bits I haven't used.

[Thotos]

"The proof is in the pudding" or in this case, "The proof is in the parking"  My confidence at fixing the Trevi was not misplaced and the Trevi managed the long-ish (over an hour!) 20 mile drive to work this morning from Enfield to Canary Wharf  without even a hiccup.

Thanks again to all for all the advice and to Geoff for the bits 

 

[Neil-yaj396]

Nice one Theo. So are we concluding that it was the pick-up in the distributor that was faulty then?