Beta engines and E10 petrol

[smithymc]

I saw the governments plans to double the amount of bio-ethanol in petrol, the article I read saying that it may not be compatible with some ‘older’ modern vehicles, often owned by lower income families, and classic vehicles generally.

So what might it mean for us in practice? More additives, more re-jetting?

Mark

[Kevo]

I saw the governments plans to double the amount of bio-ethanol in petrol, the article I read saying that it may not be compatible with some ‘older’ modern vehicles, often owned by lower income families, and classic vehicles generally.

So what might it mean for us in practice? More additives, more re-jetting?

Mark

Hi Mark
We should be ok, read the last paragraph or so.

Very interesting reading but who knows.
https://www.fbhvc.co.uk/news/article/e10-fuels-consultation-fbhvc-position-statement

Cheers Kev.

[mangocrazy]

It's my understanding that currently a number of fuel company's 97/98 octane fuel (super unleaded) is ethanol-free. This is hard to verify (forecourt managers in general have no idea), but some companies such as Esso and BP have stated that super unleaded in most geographic areas in the UK is ethanol free; however that was before the latest directive.

I have an interest in this beside the Beta angle - I also have two motorcycles that are adversely affected by ethanol. On one (the Aprilia Falco), the plastic fuel tank swells due to ethanol (at any dilution) and becomes very difficult to re-attach once removed (bolt holes don't line up). The other (the Honda VFR750) has fuel lines that have required complete replacement and carburettors that have parts attacked by ethanol.

To be honest, the problem lies less with actual engine components, but more with the fuel delivery system in totality - from tank to fuel lines to carburettors. The problem occurs with ethanol at any percentage, but obviously gets worse the higher the ethanol content in fuel. My personal view is that we should be lobbying for the protection of E0 fuel; i.e. fuel with a zero ethanol content, but I don't hold out much hope of that being offered. If we could get an assurance from the fuel companies that super unleaded would remain ethanol-free, I'd take that in a heartbeat and happily pay the extra.

[rossocorsa]

I was under the impression that superunleaded generally had less alcohol content than 95 but that it may and often does contain some.

[smithymc]

Interesting- thanks all. I only use super-unleaded anyway for the limited mileage I do . I changed all the rubber fuel hoses for an ethanol resistant type too, so hopefully no need for stress at this point.

Mark

[capriblu]

I've noticed the finish of the float chamber on my Beta's carb gradually turn from a reasonably bright semi shiny appearance to a dull almost mat grey appearance and the various brass fittings have also dulled and gone slightly milky looking - I'm fairly confident this is ethanol related.  I only use S/Unleaded, mainly Shell 

[squiglyzigly]

Little update,
Yesterday I stopped in a BP garage to top up The VX with BP Ultimate and noticed the pump handle had e5 marked on it.
Wasn’t what I’d hoped to see.
I fear it’s all going to end up e10 sooner or later.

Having recently started my fresh built 2.0 berlina engine and seeing the pump jet diaphragm start to leak within a fortnight I can only see trouble ahead. Admittedly the diaphragm was from an rebuild kit I’ve had on the shelf for a number of years but when I asked a Weber supplier if the new parts are fully e10 compatible I got the reply of
‘should be’.
Not the same as ‘yes’.

[JohnFol]

I need to solve a "smell'o'fuel" issue so might be replacing quite a few fuel lines, and switching to electric pump. Also considering changing the carburettor diaphragm and floats so really interested in the comments from Weber. Any updates since the last post?

[mangocrazy]

If Weber (and other carburettor-related manufacturers) want to continue to sell into the Classic car market, they will have to make their products ethanol-tolerant.. Making carb diaphragms and other rubber parts out of Viton would be a good start. Viton tolerates ethanol at very high levels (E85, for example), so remanufacturing all rubber components in Viton would seem to be a no-brainer.

[squiglyzigly]

I need to solve a "smell'o'fuel" issue so might be replacing quite a few fuel lines, and switching to electric pump. Also considering changing the carburettor diaphragm and floats so really interested in the comments from Weber. Any updates since the last post?

Having finished running in the freshly built berlina engine and the carb pump jet diaphragm needing to be replaced, I have now got a top end starvation which I suspect is the mechanical pump giving up. Round we go again.

[mangocrazy]

Ian, do you not want to use an electric pump for reasons of originality? Fully understand if so. If it were me I'd be investigating something like a Huco pump. It's a 'pull' unit, so very happy in the engine bay.

[WestonE]

I have to agree the OE Pumps are so marginal on capacity and it is hard to find well made ones. An electric pump with an inertia switch for safety and a filter king for nice clean consistent pressure fuel is the way to go. Get the relay design right and you can even have cranking fuel switching over to running fuel.

Enjoy!   

[squiglyzigly]

Ian, do you not want to use an electric pump for reasons of originality? Fully understand if so. If it were me I'd be investigating something like a Huco pump. It's a 'pull' unit, so very happy in the engine bay.

Yes exactly for that reason. I really wanted to keep the Berlina looking original.
My Volumex has been happily running a facet red top for years but it was never a desire to keep it original.

I have a spare facet red top pump but don’t really want to go In that direction unless I have to.
I also have a new mechanical pump on the shelf but I feel my emotions to keep originality might succumb to the logical necessity for reliability.

[mangocrazy]

Yes, it gets more difficult as the years go by to retain originality, especially as even if you find NOS items, they've been sitting on a shelf quietly degrading for around 40 years...

[peteracs]

Hi All

Just seen this ref posted on the LMC forum and thought it may be of use/interest to some of you.

This is taken from the Esso website re their 99 product available on the forecourts (see exclusions in text)

Peter


"What’s in our Synergy Supreme+ 99 premium petrol
Our Synergy Supreme+ 99 petrol has more cleaning power than our regular petrol – and includes molecules whose job it is to reduce the friction in your engine helping the moving parts work more efficiently.*

Although our pumps have E5 labels on them, our Synergy Supreme+ 99 is actually ethanol free (except, due to technical supply reasons, in Devon, Cornwall, the Teesside area and in Scotland). Legislation requires us to place these E5 labels on pumps that dispense unleaded petrol with ‘up to 5% ethanol’, including those that contain no ethanol, which is why we display them on our Synergy Supreme+ 99 pumps.

There’s currently no requirement for renewable fuel, like ethanol, to be present in super unleaded petrol although this could change in the future, in which case we would comply with any new legislation."

[mangocrazy]

That's encouraging news, as long as the government doesn't enforce ethanol in all grade of petrol. If Esso state that on their website, I will certainly seek out Esso petrol stations when fuelling classic vehicles I own (all bar two, as it happens).

[squiglyzigly]

Good shout Peter,
I’m instantly converted. 
I wonder if this is true of any other suppliers with their premium grade petrol?

Cheers
Ian

[Luigi]

Bringing this subject back to the top again…

I’m taking delivery of my auction purchase, a fully rebuilt 1979 Spyder and would love to keep the fuel system as box fresh as I can.

What’s the recommendation of unleaded fuel generally used? Always E5? E10? Or a mixture of both?

[peteracs]

Hi

I use E5 and that seems to be ok kept over winter with occasional engine starts. Even though it has been restored, just check the rubber hoses are R9 ethanol rated or better. The hoses are both in the engine bay and attached to the tank.

Peter

[Luigi]

Thanks Peter, will do