Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb

[mangocrazy]

The one time that I replaced a Beta head I fitted the exhaust manifold first. Isn’t that the easy way?

Probably so with the standard exhaust manifold, but mine is an Ansa/CSC that has been cut and shut. This is what it looks like. The manifold to head aren't the problem; it's bolting up the two flanges where the pipes have been cut (ironically to make fitting easier) with very little space around it and lying with your nose brushing the sump...

[Neil-yaj396]

The one time that I replaced a Beta head I fitted the exhaust manifold first. Isn’t that the easy way?

Probably so with the standard exhaust manifold, but mine is an Ansa/CSC that has been cut and shut. This is what it looks like. The manifold to head aren't the problem; it's bolting up the two flanges where the pipes have been cut (ironically to make fitting easier) with very little space around it and lying with your nose brushing the sump...

Realised that this must be the case just after my post. Good work getting that fitted in with no car lift for sure…..

[mangocrazy]

Well I did try, but in the end I ran out of time. When you're getting ready to exit a holiday home for best part of 5-6 months there are so many little tasks that need doing; I'm sure Peter will bear me out on that. Anyway, everything that now needs to be done in the build up to (hopefully) getting the car running again is now a one person job. The bonnet is back on and most of the jobs at the front of the engine are completed, and I reckon there are 2-3 hours of work needed to get it running, but I just don't have that 2 or 3 hours spare. The engine has new oil, but not coolant yet. Here's a photo of the engine bay as it will stay until spring 2024:

[peteracs]

Hi Graham

I can agree, last few days can be busy.

Getting house ready for long layoff in winter does take some work. Not sure of your setup, we are quite fortunate with ours now. All building/restoration work was finished pre Covid, also our house is just the house with a small lean to at the side. Main jobs are cutting back the shrubs, last grass cut (we have very little this year as has been so dry), then spend one of the last days on final clean and pack. Morning of leaving is early up to get any chilled stuff packed, put away last items such as Karen’s buggy and the. Final drain down of water. Again fortunate as we only have wood fires so no heating system to bother with.

All in all it is quite relaxed for us now having done it for many years, initially was quite a stressful leaving day. One thing which has reduced that is Eurotunnel’s flexibility in terms of which train you actually catch. Away from peak times they just put you on the next train going regardless of your ticket number. A very sensible and flexible system which allows for late or early arrivals.

Peter

[mangocrazy]

Hi Peter,

Yes, as the trips roll by you do get into a routine. I have an exit checklist that I tick off, which helps a lot. Having a cat that tries to hide in a still fairly disorganised old house when it senses we're moving adds to the hassle. Back home now, and while the journey throughout the whole of France was under cloudless blue skies, we've returned to grey and damp.

Plus ca change...   

Graham

[peteracs]

Hi Graham

Last off topic post, promise, but one of the first things wife did was checklist for leaving, she is the organised one, not me!

Weather here has been unreal for October, another day of no clouds and up to 30 degrees, due to change over the weekend thankfully a bit cooler. Have been here for nearly 4 weeks and one day of rain in an area that normally has plenty this time of year.

Peter

[mangocrazy]

It's been best part of a year since I updated this thread, mainly because not very much (if at all) has been happening with the Spider. When I arrived in April of this year I was intending to make progress, but as usual the need to make progress with the house took precedence and I left in May without having done anything of consequence to the car. There was also a certain amount of anxiety as to whether the car's repaired engine would actually start and work correctly, which translated into me not attempting to get it going...

Anyway, I've been back in France for a couple of weeks and today I decided that I would man up and attempt to start the car. Before that I had to clear away all the detritus that had accumulated around the car, wash all the windows so I could see out, and pump up the tyres (they were all between 15 and 20 psi). So the battery (on charge for the last couple of days) was bolted back into its tray, the live clamp attached to the battery terminal and then the earth clamp connected to its terminal.

Except it never got that far...

As soon as the earth clamp touched the battery earth terminal there were big sparks, pops and bangs and smoke. And the earth lead flew out of the clamp like it had been fired from a pistol. This un-nerved me quite a lot... The earth lead is the OE item and was soldered into the clamp (or rather it was). Can anybody explain this? I know there is normally a spark as the second of the two clamps contacts the battery terminal, but I've known anything as violent as this.

Anyway after thinking about this a bit (and retiring for a cup of tea) I decided to ring Vehicle Wiring Products in the UK and see if they ship to France. Thankfully they do and the extremely helpful chap there sorted me out with the right size earth lead with the correct terminations (I already have a spare earth clamp) and a pack of 10 ring crimp terminals. The whole lot (including pricey postage to France) came out at a measly £18. Bargain. Thank heavens for people like VWP.

So once my VWP parcel arrives, I'll gird my loins to do battle again. This is turning into a real saga...

[WestonE]

Hi Graham. That sounds exciting! Are you sure you had the ignition off before connecting the negative to the battery? It sounds a lot like you were connecting to a live circuit. The other possibility is reversing the battery connections which gets exciting. You would not be the first or the last to do this.

Good luck on the start. Remember spin it plugs out ignition amp disconnected first to get some oil pressure and confirm no scary mechanical noises.

Cheers

Eric   

[mangocrazy]

Hi Graham. That sounds exciting! Are you sure you had the ignition off before connecting the negative to the battery? It sounds a lot like you were connecting to a live circuit. The other possibility is reversing the battery connections which gets exciting. You would not be the first or the last to do this.

The car keys were definitely in my pocket, but during the course of refitting the head and getting access to the exhaust flanges on my two-part system I did remove the fuse box to give me extra wriggle room. Is there a possibility something could have been mis-connected on reassembly?

Battery connections were correct (I specifically checked that). In fairness the earth clamp was well past its best and there wasn't a great deal of evidence of solder on the cable strands that had been ejected from the clamp. I suspect it was ripe for failure.

It was definitely exciting, although I don't really need that kind of excitement...

Good luck on the start. Remember spin it plugs out ignition amp disconnected first to get some oil pressure and confirm no scary mechanical noises.

Cheers

Eric   

Yes, removal of the plugs was part of the plan but good idea on disconnecting the ignition amp. Will do both.

[peteracs]

Hi

If it was that violent then wonder if you have it trying to fire the starter solenoid, maybe disconnect it before trying. Most other connections would not be too much of an issue unless you have a dead short which should be obvious with a meter.

Just my thoughts….

Peter

[mangocrazy]

Hi

If it was that violent then wonder if you have it trying to fire the starter solenoid, maybe disconnect it before trying. Most other connections would not be too much of an issue unless you have a dead short which should be obvious with a meter.

Just my thoughts….

Peter

Electrics aren't really my strong point, so grateful of any suggestions. The earth lead from the battery on my car goes down to a chassis earthing point (one of the battery tray supports, then (I think) down to an earthing point on the gearbox (might be the engine), so I don't think there's too much amiss there. I'll double-check though. I'lll also check the solenoid connections, although if I remember correctly they're a real pain to get at.

[Nigel]

Hi Graham,
You are correct on the routing of the earth negative cable.

The positive cable goes direct to the starter solenoid, and that is where I'd
be looking first. Once you've checked there's no conflict with earth metal around
the solenoid, the next checks are the several smaller wires on the positive battery
post. There's at least 2,maybe 3. One of them goes to the fuse box and is coloured black,
possibly with a white tracer, another goes to the alternator, also check there.

As you've had the fuse box out, it's a likely problem area, although a mis-connection would be difficult to
achieve.

A good checking protocol would be to remove the smaller wires from the positive batt terminal, and then
connect them one by one.

Good luck,
Nigel

[peteracs]

Hi Graham

I was thinking that if you have some sort of short/mis connection on the wiring associated with the firing of the solenoid that could cause the solenoid to fire and hence engage the starter. As Nigel says attach one at a time and check for any obvious shorts with a meter

Peter

[mangocrazy]

I'm pretty certain that I'm guilty of a self-inflicted problem. Following the advice given above I first of all checked the positive battery leads and found that the main supply to the starter solenoid was solid and not in contact with any metallic elements other than the solenoid terminal. Next I checked the black/white lead to the aternator  and I think that is where I made my big mistake when bolting everything back together following the last round of works. In the picture below there are three chunky black/white cables all bolted to the same (upper) terminal post on the alternator. I believe that the heavier of the three (on the left of the picture) is in fact an earth strap and should be connected to a lower binding post which has a nut fitted to it, but has no cables attached.

Certainly it appears that I've created a major short by bolting an earth and live cable to the same terminal post. See what you think, but that's what it looks like to me. I really don't know what I was thinking when I did this - my only excuse is that a) all the cables are the same colour and b) I was left completely unsupervised...

[Nigel]

Graham,
I was wrong in my previous post. The alternator positive
on my car is fed directly from the starter solenoid positive, obviously a much shorter route.

Nigel

[WestonE]

Hi Graham,

I think you have found your problem! I made new cable for mine in red positive black negative. I always thought the Lancia colour choice was strange and dangerous.

Simple fix and game on.

Eric

[mangocrazy]

Hi Graham,

I think you have found your problem! I made new cable for mine in red positive black negative. I always thought the Lancia colour choice was strange and dangerous.

Simple fix and game on.

Eric

Yes I think so... I still feel a bit of a dunce for not clocking that an earth strap going to a live connection is a bad idea, but Lancia wiring colours don't help. The live and earth battery cables are both coloured green (!) and having the same (black with white trace) colours for both live and earth to the alternator is a bit silly. The new earth cable will be conventional black and the live battery cable will be changed to a heavier duty red sheathed item early doors. Once the car is repatriated those alternator cables will be changed in similar fashion.

We live and learn...

[mangocrazy]

Well, no-one ever said it was going to be easy or simple.

And it isn't/wasn't...

I fitted the plumptious new earth battery cable (arrived this morning) to the new -ve terminal post and everything went together nicely. Battery positive connection went on first and it was with some trepidation that I then fitted the earth cable. But this time there was no drama, no sparks, no smoke and no burning smell, so all good. I'd removed the plugs and disconnected the electronic ignition box from the loom and then spun it over on the starter to ensure no nasty mechanical noises were apparent (they weren't, which was a relief). So then it was a case of pop the plugs back in, reconnect the ignition pack and fire up the fuel pump.

And that was where it all went a bit south...

Out of the corner of my eye I thought I saw a slight movement down by the front crossmember on the RH side. On looking closer there was movement, fuel was dripping from the outlet port of the Huco electric fuel pump. At first I thought it was the fuel hose leaking from the spigot, but that wasn't the case. It was leaking from the body of the pump. Huco fuel pumps have a clever and simple method of allowing you to set the inlet and outlet spigots at any angle you like, to cater for all installation types, and it was from this junction on the outlet side that the leak was coming.

Back on the bench all became clear when I stripped the inlet port down, to discover an o-ring in two pieces. The o-ring provides the seal and mine had cried enough and bifurcated itself. They're a 60p part and I didn't have a spare. So I guess progress has been made, but (as usual) not as much as I'd like.

In the dim distant recesses of my mind I think I might have a spare pump of the same type, so time to start creating havoc and searching through cardboard boxes. If not, it's more time wasted getting inexpensive parts sent out from the UK. What joy.

[mangocrazy]

One step forward, two steps back...

I managed to track down my spare Huco pump and it had a viable o-ring, so that was retrieved and fitted to the in-car pump. When energised it ticked way until the carb was full, then stopped and no petrol escaped from any union. So far so good.

With a pretty much fully charged battery (only used to turn the engine over with plugs removed), the engine spun, but I was shortly greeted with a couple of bangs in the exhaust. There might have been some flame from the exhaust as well...

So I guess I've mis-timed the ignition and it's firing on the wrong stroke...?

And just to add to the sense of jollity I noticed that the washer bottle was leaking, probably from the rubber seal where the pump goes into the bottle.

Not one of my better days.

[peteracs]

Hi Graham

You doorgesluisd it came out in solidarity with the fuel pump……

Keep on working at it, you will get there.

Peter