Inner CV Joint Removal

[capriblu]

Noticed a slight knocking noise coming from front left of car a couple of days ago.  This has developed over the weekend and manifests itself as a light consistent knock primarily on deceleration and disappears when clutch is dipped.  I'm 90% certain this is a failing inner CV joint so have a new item on order and will look to replace over next couple of days.

I'm planning on being able to do this without having to undo the hub.  How easy is this to do ?   Any tips regarding procedure etc .. ?

Thanks,

Andrew

[SanRemo78]

It's a simple enough mechanical procedure but access is tight and is best done with the shaft on the bench. There are six Allen headed bolts on the inner CV with three locking tabs behind. Initially you can release the bolts as there is a step in the flange stopping the nuts rotating but you'll need a spanned eventually. If you can remove the staked outer CV nut the shaft can be removed easily enough. I'd recommend this route as, with the shaft on the bench, it's a simple job to clean it and replace the outer boot too, cleaning old grease out is a messy task but doing it and replacing with new should be a routine service job every 5-10 years!. The inner CV is held on with a simple circlip which will be covered in grease! If you're doing this job yourself please ensure that the car is safely supported on axle stands before getting underneath it.
Guy

[capriblu]

Thanks for this - Just not sure how easily I'll be able to undo the hub nut with just a 1/2" breaker rather than a decent impact wrench.  I'll have a go !

[peteracs]

Hi Andrew

The alternative is maybe a little less painful, remove the whole hub...... you will need to disconnect the track rod ball joint probably anyway, so that would just leave the lower ball joint. As you say removing the hub nut without an impact is non trivial often and sometimes with an impact it is difficult. I originally made a simple angle iron bar to bolt to the hub to stop the hub rotating and hence not put strain on the diff, also useful when assembling and tightening the nut.

Peter

[capriblu]

Thanks Peter - was thinking along those lines if hub nut proves difficult to budge (which I expect it will).  Presumably this would just provide the necessary mobility and movement of the shaft to allow the inner bearing to be removed and replaced, i.e. not complete removal of the hub/carrier?

[peteracs]

Hi

I was thinking of removing the whole hub from the car. Once you have detached the caliper and removed the disk, then it is just two ball joints and the two strut bolts.

Much easier to work on the bench.

Peter

[Neil-yaj396]

Just a suggestion, but could it be a wheel bearing rather than the CV joint?

I had a really bad 'hum' last year that disappeared with the clutch disengaged and it was a failing bearing.

[capriblu]

Thanks again Peter - that makes sense and should be (famous last words) straightforward.  The suspension was apart quite recently for re-bushing, so hopefully ball joints etc. will come apart quite easily.

Hi Neil, thanks for suggestion but not a bearing - its a mechanical loud tapping speed related noise almosting clunk that occurs when decelerating and in drive.  I'm 99% certain its coming from inner CV joint.  Just manually grabbing driveshaft on nearside and moving back and forth there is a lot of slop.  The offside is not great but doesnt feel quite as loose as the nearside.  If I can get inner CV joint replaced quickly and painlessly I can plan to replace all joints this winter.

[WestonE]

On Montes we have a spate of loose output flanges on the gear box that give the symptom you describe so worth checking the flange nut is actually done up not simply staked still loose!. Obviously only 1 flange on most Betas.

[lancialulu]

On Montes we have a spate of loose output flanges on the gear box that give the symptom you describe so worth checking the flange nut is actually done up not simply staked still loose!. Obviously only 1 flange on most Betas.

Good call (and anyway you really need to get the bolts up tight when putting back together). My Fulvia went through its annual MOT and they picked up loose bolts on drivers side. Not picked up for the 5 years since I changed the gearbox and I do these up really tight anyway after hearing disasters. Could not believe but 2 bolts were almost out....

And it shows the importance of MOTs even if like me you do all your own work but you cant check everything all the time....

[WestonE]

This is a job where only brand new P type (deep) M8 nyloc nuts will do. The paranoid might add Loctite. These bolts just vibrate loose and old nylocs will not do the job.

[capriblu]

On Montes we have a spate of loose output flanges on the gear box that give the symptom you describe so worth checking the flange nut is actually done up not simply staked still loose!. Obviously only 1 flange on most Betas.

Good call (and anyway you really need to get the bolts up tight when putting back together). My Fulvia went through its annual MOT and they picked up loose bolts on drivers side. Not picked up for the 5 years since I changed the gearbox and I do these up really tight anyway after hearing disasters. Could not believe but 2 bolts were almost out....

And it shows the importance of MOTs even if like me you do all your own work but you cant check everything all the time....

Thanks for this -

So I have removed the whole drive shaft assembly complete with the hub from the car - relatively quick and painless process!  I've now decided to replace both inner and outer CV joints as well as wheel bearing all together simply to avoid risk of having to strip down again in the near future.   A colleague and black belt garagista with full workshop facilties in his garage (tools, press etc..) will assist.

I did check the castle lock nut on the inner CV joint flange and whilst it was "staked" albeit only at one point I did sense that it is not particularly tight.  The backlash between the flange and the diff output spline was quite noticable (I would estimate about 015/020 " radial movement) - not sure whether lock not tightness should really be critical in reducing play between flange and shaft ?

I've attempted to "de stake" and will find a suitable castle nut socket to check tightness.  Does anybody know size and spec - is it the same as the Monte ones?    Is it safe to tighten against engaged transmission?

[Ics19]

The loose nut doesn't sound good, equally the single stake is ominous, but you'll probably get away with re-using the nut.  I've used a ground down old chisel to get a good fit on the stake area - a curved side can ease the staking back out quite well.  You really need to lock the flange to do it up with something solid bolted on to the holes, as the torque is ~160 Nm about 115 ft lb.  The nuts are the same as monte ones as are the joints/bolts/nuts:  https://www.eurosport-uk.net/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=51_67&products_id=1080

If you can't borrow a tool, then a suitable old socket might benefit from a little angle grinding to fit the castellations - at least you have the benefit of having a nut off the car to check the fit easily.  The LMC used to hire the tool, but I don't think it was an original Lancia one and wasn't the greatest condition IIRC.

[lancialulu]

I think the Lancia Motor Club has the tool and locking part to take the strain off the transmission.

You would need to be a member to hire it

Tim
LMC Special tool custodian

PS loose hub on spline is not good... I had this on the drivers side extension - very worn - had to change the flange which wore not the splines (harder steel)

[capriblu]

Thanks all for the advice / suggestions.

I am making a simple locking tool (laser cutting at work) and have a 40mm 4 point castle socket on its way from China (ugh!!).   Watch this space.

[capriblu]

Update -  So my own design locking tool (6mm laser cut steel) worked perfectly and despite the newly arrived chinese castle nut socket turning out to be not really the right size (too big) I was able to improvise and get sufficient purchase to undo the nut. It wasnt very tight at all.  I removed the flange, inspected (it looked fine), cleaned and regreased. I re-fitted nut and tightened as best as I could with a 1/2" drive ratchet and now there is none of the previous slop/backlash between flange and shaft.  I re-staked the nut on both sides so hopefully it should be secure and remain tight.

What I cant understand is how such slop/looseness could have developed given that the nut was staked well before removal, albeit only at one of the two points?   I cant believe that this looseness could have existed for an extended period without symptoms; I'm starting to think that perhaps the knocking noise that lead me to think it was a failing inner CV unit was coming from the loose drive flange.

I'll fit the new inner CV joint whilst the hub assembly is off the car, reassemble (with new cap head screws and nylocs) and see if (hope that) the knocking has gone. 

[SanRemo78]

Hmmm. The outer CV joint is responsible for keeping the two inner halves of the wheel bearing in place. If you've never removed one it's an outer sleeve with a ridge running around the inside in the middle creating two inner races. The inner halves have an outer flange, one will come off with the outer hub. If the hub nut isn't fully tight it allows the bearing inners to wander a little and if they start running outside the bearing races your bearing life will be short. Once you've reassembled it (inner castellated nut is 230ftlbs and hub nut on CV is also 230ftlbs) spin the wheel and if it rumbles tear it apart and replace the bearing.

[capriblu]

Hmmm. The outer CV joint is responsible for keeping the two inner halves of the wheel bearing in place. If you've never removed one it's an outer sleeve with a ridge running around the inside in the middle creating two inner races. The inner halves have an outer flange, one will come off with the outer hub. If the hub nut isn't fully tight it allows the bearing inners to wander a little and if they start running outside the bearing races your bearing life will be short. Once you've reassembled it (inner castellated nut is 230ftlbs and hub nut on CV is also 230ftlbs) spin the wheel and if it rumbles tear it apart and replace the bearing.

No particular reason to think that there is a problem with outer CV joint and/or wheel bearing so I will just fit the inner CV joint given that I have a new unit and that this is a straightforward job with the hub and driveshaft assemly off the car.  Will just reassemble and see how things are ........

[Ics19]

Good news on the reassembly   It 's a puzzle why they loosen, so worth checking next time anyone's in that area, but obviously easier when the CV joint is worn to give you some play to spot the flange play!

inner castellated nut is 230ftlbs and hub nut on CV is also 230ftlbs

Possible typo The spec I have ('80 I think) shows 160Nm (118 ft/lb) for the castellated ring nuts (at the diff & intermediate) and 320nm (236 ft/lb) for the hub nuts (both front & rear).  Both types are M24 x 1.5.  Anything more than a 100 ft/lb on those ring nuts gets dicey as it is 

[SanRemo78]

I'm going off memory with these torque settings - anyone got a Haynes manual handy? Pretty sure they're 230ft lbs!