Lancia Beta Forum
General Category => Members Cars => Topic started by: Ferrit on March 30, 2025, 01:36:36 PM
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Afternoon,
After a year of looking for a nice VX Coupe I have actually just agreed the purchase of a 2000 Coupe from a collector in SA.
I am now have a million questions...
Insurance, who, how etc?
Fuel - additives yes or now, fuel type, fuel lines etc - what do I need to do?
Oil types? I have been told its been fully serviced, brakes checked through, new tyres, new belts and new battery. Its only got 23,000 km's so its not going to need much and have been told everything has been checked through. We will see ;-)
If anyone has experience of SA imports re DVLA let me know please, any help will be appreciated.
Its going to need some tlc underneath to protect from the UK climate. It will be in a lightly heated garage ASAP/I can clear all the bikes out.
I cant wait for it to arrive in c5 weeks and start this journey together.
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Looks like a stunning example! I can't offer any advice on import mechanics but you may need help from the Lancia Motor Club with proof of age for registration? I think Tony Harrison can help with that?
Irrespective of service history I think another belt change would be wise so you KNOW it's been done. Check the rubber fuel lines and change them for ethanol proof ones too as soon as possible, new fuel filter as well. Brake fluid change but you may need to soak and soak and soak the bleed nipples before you try to crack them open. Antifreeze change too.
Guy
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All good advice. I will look up Tony Harrison now
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Any advice around unleaded modern fuels and additives, do you?
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Not yet.... My car is pretty much a rolling shell and won't be back on the road for another year most likely! I may come back to you for current advice! ;D ;D ;D
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These engines are fine on unleaded fuel. However E10 fuels will attack your fuel hoses so expect to replace all fuel hoses. See the thread on here on Fuel Hose replacement for Ethanol resistant hose. These engines run better on 97 -99 octane E5 but it is not essential.
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Hi
Nice looking car.
On fuel lines as Eric has said the rubber hoses need to be replaced, E9 rated at least to give you a good chance of them lasting, but go with reputable manufacturer such as Cohline. There are normally rubber hoses both in the engine bay and from the tank, for the cost not worth risking it, just replace them.
Suggest E5 fuel where you can.
Neil Priestman on here
http://lanciabeta.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=299
handles the LMC dating so worth contacting, not sure if he can help with DVLA registration.
As to oil, I run 10/50 synthetic which gives you a good balance of cold start and hot running. I did find modern 10/40 when very hot flickered the red light on idle, 10/50 solved that. Kinder to the engine on cold start than old school 20/50.
Insurance take your pick, I use Lancaster, but plenty of Classic car ones, suggest get agreed value and buy back in case of writeoff if you want to keep it.
Peter
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So the Beta is at the car export depo at the port, ready to be packed.
Starting to think of a list of 'To Do's':
DVLA - reached out to Neil
Sorting the garage and short term storage for once its here
Pull the interior out to check out the floor and rear turrets - where should I be looking? Thinking of getting a Krown protection done straight away
Ordering some fuel additive and oil analysis kit, and maybe some oil/filter as recommended
All fluids and belts have been done as was the tyres, but will go and check brakes and belts. How about coolant?
Fuel system - I might look at dropping the tank, inspecting, cleaning repainting, sort all the rubber pipes out and filter
Owner suggested a tune due to the fuel, temp and height above sea level where its been living? I found a classic car rolling-road place, any recommendations for Surrey?
Check all the pipes etc, I can see one on a video he sent that is a little perished
Anything else?
I want to get it going ASAP and then during the winter build a list to work through
Mark
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Rear turrets are a known weak spot but inspection is hampered by the bitumen covering... Ask me how I know! There are multiple layers of steel involved and if corrosion sets in it's a big job to resolve.
In the wheel arch have a very careful look at the panel work behind the suspension struts, there are three layers there and they are exposed. If you can get a borescope then fit the carpets in the boot and have a look into the box sections on either side. There is some gusseting in there by the turrets but you should be able to see if it's okay or not. Paint in there is going to be lacking but hopefully it got some wax injected. Whilst the carpets are out have a close look at the joint between the turret and the floor for any obvious signs. If it's okay then the rest may be okay. If you want to remove the bitumen it's a scape job probably. You can use dry ice if you can find a way to keep it against the pads, it'll cause contraction and you'll hear a crack as it goes at which point a tap to two with a soft mallet and the pads come off cleanly but will never go back on! With it out of the way you may find a few spots where rot has set in between layers bursting through.
Hopefully it's all good and ready for some serious rustproofing treatment!
Dropping the tank is an excellent idea. But try to drain it as much as you can and consider how you'll dispose of the waste. Replacing the rubber piping is a no brainer whilst it's out, just make sure you've got the correct replacement hoses that will cope with current fuels. I'd recommend doing that before looking at anything else. New filters obviously! If the fuel gauge works that's great but if you need a sender for a car with an electric fuel pump I've got a NOS one in a box!
Guy
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Thank you so much for answering.
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Hi,
If the car has spent its life as per the registration area (GP is Gauteng Province) the climate
is warm and dry. Rust is seldom seen but as Guy says, it's worth checking all the normal problem
areas. Go mad with the Dynatrol!
It was probably sold by TAK in Johannesburg, a Lancia dealer I worked at in 84/85. As far as
I recall, these were UK spec cars with no extra emission equipment, unlike the Aus spec versions.
If this is the same car, the interior trim does not appear to be factory, hardly surprising given the age.
Upholstery work is fairly low cost in SA.
Looks like a great car, best wishes with it. I look forward to seeing it sometime.
Nigel
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Yep built at TAK
Its nice to hear your thoughts on the possible condition. So I asked about the interior and assumed as you said, but I was informed it is SA standard factory from new. If I dont like it maybe I will look for a VX interior?
As soon as its drivable I was thinking of using Krown - see below. I do this myself with all my vehicles but thinking first time it might be a plan for shop this job out.
https://youtu.be/-_G5vJGaGDU?si=3mXClC5FPYNFe8oR
https://www.krown.co.uk/
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Pre-facelift Coupes were built from Completely-Knocked-Down kits by TAK, to fulfil local
content legislation designed to protect the SA car industry at the time. Imported cars, at the time,
were subject to high additional taxes. Hence the paint colour and trim differences on the early cars.
Spiders and HPE's, of which there were few in those early days, arrived built up.
CKD's became unnecessary when the economy stabilised and import taxes were either greatly
reduced or, gradually, abolished. Your car, being an 82 or later, fell well outside this, and all facelift cars were
imported fully built up.
Hope that better explains!
Nigel
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all helps to backfill the story. Neil from LMC said it was built in April 1982, reg doc says 'date of liability' as 01-01-1982
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Thank you for all the replies so far. Car should be on a boat this time next week. Getting closer.
Scouring some of the pictures I could see the washer bottle seemed to be missing and the seller confirmed after a check. I guess he never used it :D
I am thinking the repoduction one and a motor from Betaboyz? The expansion tank has been replaced by something else but the guy says its all good. I might wait and see before buying a replacement. Fuse box cover might be damaged also.
All in one picture
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Hi Mark
Those scuttle mounted bottles are hard to find, from memory I think Nigel had a solution?
I should have a spare fuse box/lid you can have.
Peter
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Indeed, my car now has a Clio tank which fits the space quite well. Searching Ebay will bring it up. Some bracketry is required. This you'll find pictured on my HPE rolling resto pages.
Nigel
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Thank you Nigel.
Chomping at the bit waiting for the car to turn up. I guess i will just get on with the yearly underside protection on my old Caravelle and polish my exhaust tips in the meantime 😬
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At least you aren't polishing the inside (yet)
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So the car is loaded in a container and should be on its way on the 10th, here by the end of the month. This forums old posts have been excellent help so far.
I am currently building a list of items to get like oil and filters etc. I am going to get an oil analysis done by Millers Oils while I am at it. Bought an almost new endoscope to go looking for rust ( :P).
List of items I could do with some help with:
Which oil filter is it? I am not sure on the engine type - see attachment
Do people use fuel additives?
Any recommendations on modernising the fuel system, obv new ethanol capable pipes (Cohline someone recommended), how about a Filter King and a electronic fuel pump, any thoughts?
Gearbox oil, any recommendations?
I will try and buy as much from Betaboyz of course
Thanks to SanRemo78 for the leather steering wheel, just bought a restore kit for that. After a de-grease it looks pretty good shape.
The rest can wait until it gets here..
Mark
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Just to answer some of you questions;
Oil filter - all the same except VX. You can get one from Betaboyz or any quality brand elsewhere.
Fuel additive - I use Millers VSP. My car used to run ok on the old low octane unleaded, but when it went to E10 it didn't like it on longer runs so moved to super after that.
Filter King - worth having just to regulate the fuel flow and have a visible quality filter. I fitted mine with the standard mechanical pump but others prefer an electric pump. If you fit an electric pump it will need a cut-off switch too.
Gearbox oil - there are recommendations on here if you search. Redline?
Neil
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Hi
As per above for the gearbox, Redline 75w 90NS. The NS is important due to modern oils can attack the synchros.
I use just E5 petrol in my car without any additives, no problems so far. The mech pump works fine, but keep the return line with it. As above installing an electrical pump requires you to add crash sensor cut off to be safe. I install a filter before and after the mech pump again to be safe as I have had crud come from the tank/old hard lines when I first started using it after it had been stood for a long time.
Fuel lines, I used Cohline, make sure from reputable supplier, you need R9 certified, from memory 8mm on supply and 6mm on return and remember there are hoses attached to the tank as well as in the engine bay.
Peter
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two months later at its in the UK but will still take two more weeks to be 'de-vanned' and then sent to me. I might see it ws 16/06. Its like Christmas Eve as a kid meets Ground Hog Day :-(
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Gearbox Oil Redline 75W90 NS from OPIE Oils. Get 2 Quarts and NS is not a typo. This variant will give great cold shifts and not attack the brass synchro rings. Change it hot.
Eric
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Got it Eric :-) Thank you
Now can I have some pictures of your finished VX interior :-)
Long term I want to do the same and think it would go well with my red car. When I get it of course ::)
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So its finally here! I can stop worrying about it actually turning up to start worrying about the work i need to do, and what on earth have I done buying it.
Body is okay, I have not found any big time rust as yet. Rear turret first glance looks pretty good
Rear bushes are shot. I am thinking they were very old/its not been used/wheels tied down all this way (7200 nm) has possibly not helped
Handbrake is dead - I remember they were a PitA BitD
Its overheating and smells of fuel - coolant flush is in need by the look of it.
I am going to assume at the moment the brake calipers need refurbishing - any recommendations on where to get this carried out? I will sort out the old fuel, tank and pipes at some point.
Wiring is a bit messy... this will need some work
Daunting but tough its mine, it might just take a few weeks longer than I guessed (silly).
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If the body is good that's the best situation anything mechanical can be sorted and even the nicest looking Beta for sale in the UK could easily have similar wear and issues. Fix it and you'll know it's all 100% right.
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Am liking the weeks part, will be interesting to see the reality! Hope it proves to be as straight forward as you hope however…..
Peter
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with my tongue firmly in my cheek
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The good news is there's nothing scary to fix there and you've free access to what I suspect it the world's best source of practical Beta advice!
Incidentally where in the country are you?
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Hi Mark,
I would start by concentrating on the cooling system, fuel smells and handbrake.
Soak the levers on the rear calipers for a day or two, do the cables appear to move?
Fuel hoses, 2 front and 2 rear should be replaced with R9 or higher spec. The fronts are tricky
access, remove the big steering arm gaiter from its 4 fixings and do them from there.
Has it had a recent/known cambelt change? If not, do it now. And at the same time I'd fit a
new water pump. The bottom steel coolant rail can completely clog up. Are the two small coolant
pipes to and from the choke actuator getting warm?
I've just realised I've repeated some good advice already posted!
Important: Your first MOT will be done using the VIN number. If it fails the first test, make sure the MOT tester
creates a brand new entry for the car. DVLA won't accept the partial number that the system normally
generates on a retest. (It happened to me on my imported Mazda)
Even though it's an 82 model, I think it will need an MOT for initial registration, but open to correction.
It's a good idea anyway.
Nigel
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The good news is there's nothing scary to fix there and you've free access to what I suspect it the world's best source of practical Beta advice!
Incidentally where in the country are you?
I am in Surrey UK Stuart
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Hi Mark,
I would start by concentrating on the cooling system, fuel smells and handbrake.
Soak the levers on the rear calipers for a day or two, do the cables appear to move?
Fuel hoses, 2 front and 2 rear should be replaced with R9 or higher spec. The fronts are tricky
access, remove the big steering arm gaiter from its 4 fixings and do them from there.
Has it had a recent/known cambelt change? If not, do it now. And at the same time I'd fit a
new water pump. The bottom steel coolant rail can completely clog up. Are the two small coolant
pipes to and from the choke actuator getting warm?
I've just realised I've repeated some good advice already posted!
Important: Your first MOT will be done using the VIN number. If it fails the first test, make sure the MOT tester
creates a brand new entry for the car. DVLA won't accept the partial number that the system normally
generates on a retest. (It happened to me on my imported Mazda)
Even though it's an 82 model, I think it will need an MOT for initial registration, but open to correction.
It's a good idea anyway.
Nigel
Thank you Nigel your advice is much appreciated. Tomorrow i am going to flush the coolant and oil. Do a compression test and if the oil looks okay send off an analysis. I will report back how i get on snd answer your questions Nigel
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The good news is there's nothing scary to fix there and you've free access to what I suspect it the world's best source of practical Beta advice!
Incidentally where in the country are you?
I am in Surrey UK Stuart
Not a million miles from Tony and probably a few more!
Peter
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I live in Kent but visit my daughter in Addlestone every month or so. I could bring my
hpe one weekend and visit if you're not too far from there.
Nigel
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I live in Kent but visit my daughter in Addlestone every month or so. I could bring my
hpe one weekend and visit if you're not too far from there.
Nigel
That would be ace Nigel. I am in KT7. I can supply good coffee/cake/lunch :-)
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So today after a bike ride in the Surrey Hills I spent the afternoon in the baking sun working on Luigi (not sure if it will stick, named after Mario's brother).
Flushed the coolant a few times, cleaned out the expansion res, changed the oil, tried to fix the bonnet release by stripping and lubing the cable and putting it back together (it didnt work but will try adjusting again before I renew the cable), a front and rear wheel off to have a look at the suspension etc.
Good news: Its like new underneath, amazing the middle section (between the sill lips) is original underseal and looks like its a couple years old, sills are solid on the inside of the 'lip', jacking points are mint, everything is solid as a rock. Suspension and springs all look mint possible repainted. I will get an endoscope in the rear box section. Washer bottle is missing but I have a repo one from Betaboyz ready.
The Bad: handbrake cable is dead, it seems to have lost one end, all the suspension bushes need doing (some have been hand made but are not ideal, or original type and are shot, ARB, look okay but will do at the same time. The big'e is I think the head gasket is gone. Coolant was low and the condensation in the breathers, filler and dip stick, drained the oil and its like grey chocolate milkshake. I will get a compression tester and see what that shows something, maybe stick a camera down the bores this week.
And the ugly: not much tbh, door seals need doing, boot lid needs adj, wiring is a mess but everything works, wiper stalk has been repaired, again everything works. Steering wheel is minging, but I have a leather one one of you guys supplied and I have restored. I might just do the clutch cable and the look at the gear change bushes. Fuel pipe is leaking by the carb but I was planning to replace. Still contemplating dropping the tank and clean the outside properly and repaint with some stone chip, in fact all the stone chip needs doing at some point, its not nice. Wiring and stone chip is a winter project.
Head gasket testing is next. I have a coolant tester, I will do that and order a compression gauge
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Hi Mark
Good progress and sounds like the bodywork is in decent condition which is a big plus, everything else can be sorted at reasonable cost, though depending on what you find with the engine, that could involve engine out which is not so pleasant.
Best of luck and see you Sunday.
Peter
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Question, can you do a head gasket in situ? I have only pulled engines out of Beta BitD
Lancia OC man came to verify it.
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Mark,
Yes, head gasket change very doable.
Leave the manifolds in place, do those gaskets on the bench.
You may need a hand to lift it off though.
Nigel
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and as long as I dont find any other horrors, valve shims stay as is? Engine sounds sweet even with a possible head gasket. I have bought a Reld Testing Kit so we will see and will update later.
Other questions I have:
Keys, I have one set and any advice or thoughts?
Suspension bushes - any recommendations, I have asked Betaboyz but no reply as yet
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Hi
Mark at Betaboyz can be late to reply, but he has the suspension bushes etc, just complete an order on his website.
On keys I and others have used John
JOHN RICHARD SECURITY PRODUCTS (WIRRAL) LIMITED
202A PENSBY ROAD
HESWALL
WIRRAL
CH60 7RJ
TEL 0151 342 2318 / 4074
FAX 0151 342 3273
info@locksnkeys.co.uk
He can cut from code number from memory.
Peter
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so tonight tested the head gasket using this kit and it seems okay. :o Test fluid stayed blue, got it up to temp and the fan was kicking on and off. So maybe its fine? When I changed the oil I have never seen oil this bad before. I will test the compression when the gauge turns up and look at the plugs.
Fixed the bonnet cable I think. Still not trusting it, I will check everything is tight.
Battery is not holding a charge still. I will cycle it a few more times before I buy a new one.
Last before I packed up I stuck a camera up the rear box section, so far I cant see any rust. Amazing :-)
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Ozl8uhdVHNpgsxRxMcvcqgoAA29jy-AN?usp=sharing
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If head ok, maybe someone put water into oil by mistake?
Peter
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about to order a bunch of stuff for the car.
1" timing belt, I am assuming its just better/stronger, does the cover still fit, or just go for the std 19mm one?
Tension bearing, should I do this as a matter of course or see when I have it in bits?
BitD I did this freehand, should I look for a tool to help? Sorry its been a while since I have done a cambelt.
Fuel tubing and gearbox oil, any recommendations where to buy?
Actual list is long.
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A quick reply on
Fuel tubing
these days it's best to ensure they're a low permeation type for current (and future) ethanol levels, so R9 rating and definitely from a recognised brand i.e. Gates, Codan or Cohline. These will have the mandatory FKM inner layer (at least) to meet the spec properly and stop your garage smelling of fumes - I'd avoid any non-name hose from your favourite auction site ::)
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I use Opie for my oils and they often have 10-15% discounts
I used Cohline R9 a few years ago, no issues with hoses degrading. I also stick to E5. Remember hoses both in engine bay and attached to tank.
Peter
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Mark,
I bought a 1 inch belt for mine but haven't used it yet. Eric gave me some pointers
to look out for, somewhere on my HPE page. I don't really think it's necessary for a standard engine,
and fouling is possible unless you pay attention to certain items.
Yes, change the tensioner bearing, real easy, and readily available (3205-A-ZRS1TN9/HT33 from RS)
No special tools required. Plenty of guidance on here.
Bonnet cables: Prone to issues, to avoid breaking the vent grille for access, I fitted riv-nuts and screws
to allow easy access.
I use 10/60 oil from Mannol.
You may find a date marked on the battery. I would change it anyway. Varta D59 is good.
Nigel
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Just to add a little to the tensioner bearing, the original tensioner comprised of a bearing with an outer metal sleeve which was removable from the bearing. On some third party replacements the outer was not removable from the bearing. New complete tensioners outer + bearing combined are often hard to find. Also remember the 1600 and 2l ones are slightly different diameter, but use the same bearing.
Peter
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Thanks again guys for the useful information.
I am trying to place a large order with Betaboyz but every payment I try is failing.
Can someone give me a really rough estimate of fuel tubing I should order? Trying to get a bunch of parts on-site so I can just work through some of the jobs.
Nigel that tip for the bonnet release in genius, what size did you use? :-) I am going to the Lancia Day on Sunday, just for the morning, maybe I will recognise your cars first? ;-)
Mark
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Nigel’s is hard to miss!
Peter
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On the payment I usually use Paypal, not done it recently but always works for me.
On the hoses I think I bought a couple of metres of both 6 and 8mm hose which should be enough for a carb car. Sadly I do not have the original order to double check. The main run is in the engine bay. The tank run is relatively short. Obviously best to measure up your car and leave some wriggle room!
Hope that helps.
Peter
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Regarding tappet shims, I'd still do them they can still be out even if it sounds ok. You will probably find that by juggling the shims around that you'll only need a couple of shims to complete the job.
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Re: clearances, any recommendations? Where to get a good tool?
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Hi
See values in Haynes.
Tool is here, though available elsewhere
https://www.aecar.co.uk/products/valve-tappet-shim-tool-fiat-lancia-twin-cam-dohc-8v
Also get a couple of magnets on a stick to help get the shim out.
Peter
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Peter now you are bringing back memories :-) TVM, see you tomorrow hopefully. I will have an England Cricket cap on
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Yes, see you tomorrow.
Peter
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Tank out
Top looks amazing. Underside is thick with stonechip. I will strip at the weekend and use a smooth light underseal i think.
Stuck a camera inside. Its clean but a few tiny bits of light rust. I thought everything was good and i spotted this on the outside. Inside it looks like this
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Inside shots
first picture is the offending area. Worst case I guess I do a POR15 process. Generally it looks really clean, tiny bit of light rust by the filler entrance, and tiny traces where the other pipes are welded in place
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Also found this in the glove compartment, is it from the lock?
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Can you rebuild the Compensator? Found a new one in Italy
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Hi Mark
If the tank is not leaking/weeping I would do nothing to it, looks in amazing condition compared to many.
No idea on spring, could be one of the locks.
Peter
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I'll echo Peters comments, that tank looks very good, maybe just needs a clean out? Check the gauze on the pick up pipe but it looks all good. The brake compensator is available from Mark and other sources but check the boot you get with it as it may not be right. Hopefully you will find the original is usable after a bit of cleaning and reconditioning.
The spring might be from the bonnet pull handles?
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I will do that. I will clean it up and leave that area alone. Re: cleaning inside, some fuel and slosh it around for a while i am assuming. Most of the tank inside is spotless. Sender unit looks all good inc the gauze.
Its such a shame the Artex stylee stone chip they have used on sills, arches and tank is vile. Winter project is remove it all, and redo in smooth.
Bingo Guy, top of the class, it is the bonnet release spring! 😎
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While on brakes, any recommendations for new hozes and fluid type?
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New hoses are available from Mark, I'm sure you can also get stainless braided hoses but I'm not a huge fan of those as the covering can hide deterioration of the rubber underneath. Make your own mind up on that. Brake fluid on my car will be whatever is specced in the Haynes manual, haven't got to that point yet. Any work on the brake system should start with the knowledge that the bleed nipples aren't seized. And a part of the regular maintenance on my car will be the regular cracking and re-tightening of the bleed valves.
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Nigel ran me through a plan of action for bleed nipples. I will tread carefully. I think its been bled in the last couple years. The fluid looks clean.
Any thoughts on what to paint the tank with? I was going to go with a top coat of a smooth spray underseal
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did a quick tally of costs in my work spreadsheet, I think I might have another £500 to go to get it roadworthy (phase 1), but most of the must do items so far are only coming to £650.
I have a sneaking feeling once running I will find a bunch more to do. Phase 2 will be tidy the wiring and get the vile stone-chip (Artex) off. On the wiring front I gingerly removed the fuse/relay box cover which is very cracked and glued together. Half the relays are missing but are next to the box with wiring all spliced into. I think I can reverse this. It all works currently though. Amazing.
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In other posts here I get the point on the 'fake' jacking points.
I used some ply yesterday to jack up on the sill near to one of those manufacturing/assembly points. Everything seems very strong and I only did this briefly. When I do the bushes and brakes I am going to need some serious guidance from you lot as I would normally just stick it up on axle stands, all four wheels off. I can do an axle at a time with the bushes etc, but bleeding brakes it would be handy
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Hi Mark
I always use the front subframe for jacking and axle stands. For the rear I use the mount of rear anti roll bar on the body.
Peter
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Evening Peter, I was looking at that last night. I led there for ages, just looking about trying to figure this out. Do you use a piece of timber/ply to protect?
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Evening Peter, I was looking at that last night. I led there for ages, just looking about trying to figure this out. Do you use a piece of timber/ply to protect?
I use one of those rubber bung type jack protectors that are cheap to buy. There is a jacking plate under the rear valance, but like Peter I use the ARB point as you can't get the car up very far with a normal jack on the rear plate.
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Hi
Yes I keep a pile of off cuts and always use on top of Jack and stands, spreads the load and protects the metal.
Peter
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Hi Mark
I always use the front subframe for jacking and axle stands. For the rear I use the mount of rear anti roll bar on the body.
Peter
At the rear jack off the central transverse links subframe suitably protected? I feel like I need to make a 'jacking block' that fits here perfectly? Fronts easy. Jack on the wishbones, AS on the subframe.
I have now gone down a rabbithole of brake fluids... ::)
Thanks to Guy I now have a jack. When new where did the tool kit live?
Paperwork off to DVLA today
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Hi Mark
Do not forget to message/email me your address so I can send the fuse box lid.
Peter
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Washed the boot out last night. Tonight i start on the tank. Hopefully get the tank and hoses back in this weekend. Then on to bushes if they show up.
Also found a post on a test forum from Peter about keys. I have a glovebox lock thats not the same as the rest of the keys (doors and boot). I tried to repin but i dont have enough of the right pins. So i removed them all. So it sort of works ;D
Noticed a wire off, any thoughts?
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Oil pressure gauge or oil pressure warning light?
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Black/white there is normally pad wear indicator, which may or not be connected if the pads do not have it.
Peter
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can you buy fuel pipe clips?
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Try here
https://www.bresco.com/acatalog/Pipe_Clips.html
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I carefully removed mine on stripdown but they are so brittle that removing the pipes usually fractures them.And if they didn't break on removal then pushing a pipe back into them does the trick....
I doubt anyone would be interested in 3D printing these and I've bought a selection of single 3/16th clips, double and triple 3/16th clips plus some combined 3/16th and 5/16th clips to keep the new brake and fuel lines where they need to be. If I have any left over this week I'll happily send the excess down to you!
Guy
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Hi Guy
Do those new clips fit ok in the existing holes, I have the same job to do and did not want to reuse the originals due to old age?
Peter
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I'll confirm later today Mark! A trial fit in one hole was encouraging but I haven't punched the holder through it's base yet.
Guy
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Hi Guy
Do those new clips fit ok in the existing holes, I have the same job to do and did not want to reuse the originals due to old age?
Peter
Yes Peter, nice and solid fit, they need a hammer or punch to fit properly. I'm using a rubber mallet rather then a hammer to avoid damaging fresh paintwork. The base is a nice tight fit in the hole and a sharp tap breaks the stem and pushes the clip into the holder pretty easily. Work has got in the way again this morning but, if the temperatures don't go through the roof this afternoon I may get the last of the pipework for the brakes nailed down leaving just the single fuel line to install. Pump and regulator ordered at the weekend to finalise the position and pipe routing later this week.
Guy
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quick question - bonnet catch adjustment, is this too tight? This is at rest.
Lots of bits incoming, inc a FedEx delivered bag of oil from Opie, due to bouncing it down the street no doubt
belts, water pump and bolts, oil filter, most of the bushes. Ordered brake compensator and hoses
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Hi Mark,
Very hard to tell from a photo. A little slack is normally better just to ensure the catches
fully engage. If you have two handles, concentrate on only one first, (drivers side?), get
that working perfectly, then tackle the other one. The rubber buffers play a significant role
in conjunction with the lifting bars on the catches. Aiming the bonnet pins to the catches is also
vital. When testing your set up, make sure the cables are tight: slipping will cause grief!
On your PM question about the bonnet vent, I used 4mm alloy riv-nuts and stainless dome-head screws.
The riv-nuts fit the existing bonnet holes ( about 6mm outside diameter). Drilling and
fettling the grille takes time and care, you have to make room for the screw heads. I used a dremel.
Nigel
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just the one handle, all my other Beta's had two. Thanks for the tips
Next question, I think I have a oil pump/filter mount from a Vx engine, I am not sure I have enough room for a std filter I have ordered. Any thoughts? Sorry for the rubbish stock photo, its tipping down outside :-)
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Hi Mark
The filter I use looks to be the same size is you have (Bosch 3394).
Peter
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The picture has stretched. I will check later
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This car is never going to look like some of the rebuilds here, but hell the underside is pretty darn amazing. I just dont have the time/space/energy/money to go mad on this. Yet... :-)
Its a bit of an enigma, some things are a right old mess, but the body is nuts good in places, and then around the edges its been sprayed with a very tough polyurethane type covering that nothing seems to be able to touch, then on the sills is a old fashioned under-seal that still sticky. I think a petrol soaked rag would take it off. I think during the winter I will look into getting this sorted professionally.
Just washed the underside around the tank area that had a coating of African dust. BiltHamber coating and then tank back in and new tubes. Still needs final connecting up and bolting home. Up on blocks and start the bushes at the weekend.
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just the one handle, all my other Beta's had two. Thanks for the tips
Next question, I think I have a oil pump/filter mount from a Vx engine, I am not sure I have enough room for a std filter I have ordered. Any thoughts? Sorry for the rubbish stock photo, its tipping down outside :-)
The VX oil pump doesn't fit in a standard sump
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Hi Mark
Looks pretty amazing underneath.
The filter housing is separate to the oil pump.
Peter
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Any thoughts? Handbrake cable has different rubber insulation lengths each side. One is short at c20cm and the other is long at c1m. I will check the Haynes Manual.
Currently dodging rain.
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This is the same
https://oldtimer-shop.eu/product/lancia-beta-until-10-79-handbrake-cable-82291382/
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I can't remember any details of why and what but I believe that later cars have different handbrake cables, I'm sure somebody will be along to advise
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I ordered the right one 79 on. It looks right just the insulation. I am going with long on exhaust side
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I had a quick look under mine and that sounds correct
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Thank you Rossocorsa. I now have a working handbrake :-)
Weekend of work: Nigel came over for a coffee and helped me with a few pointers
After he had gone I finished my tank re-instillation, connected all the hoses up and got the engine running again. Then I did the front bushes, they were hand made from brittle nylon type substance and a couple had broken. ARB on the front actually had newish looking poly-bushes. Tbh this is the only set of bushes you can get from the normal suppliers I think. I have the rear ones baring one set that are only available in orange at the moment. Rear bushes are shot almost non-existent.
Today I replaced the handbrake cable, HT leads and started working on the new washer bottle. One thing which was odd, I noticed a rear piston boot off, so I whipped the caliper off, and when I removed the piston boot off I found a piston seal inside, no leaks though. I will rebuild this caliper I think. It must have a seal inside surely? Put the boot back on and tested again. Brakes feel really firm tbh.
I cleaned all the calipers and put some pluzgas on the hose connections and nipple thread bases. I think its all been apart recently it seems, and the nipples are brass and look new. I have flexy hoses and compensator coming.
This week maybe I will do a compression test, and change the timing belt and pump.
Nigel suggested I get the rad checked out. I will price this out and order a new rotor arm and a battery as it seems pretty dead. I keep conditioning it but I will not hold on to a charge. I guess it could be something else but this is worth a try first.
All the lights are working. I didnt test the brake lights though as I was on my own. New washer motor works from the switchgear, I was concerned at this stalk is repaired.
So I need battery, caliper rebuild kit, look at the missing rear bushes so maybe they will have to be orange? I need a bunch of nuts and bolt also.
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Re handbrake I think I read your dimensions in a hurry confused myself and I might be wrong, I will have another look today and check again! Apologies if it turns out I'm wrong!
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Hi Mark, I don’t think it’s critical but I noticed that the bolts attaching the rear anti roll bar are bolted to the rear hub with the nut on the inside. This means you can’t remove the bolt easily. If you need to put it right you’ll need to remove the wheel, calliper carrier and disc, undo the three 10mm bolts holding the dust shields so you can rotate them to clear the bolt for removal.
I checked the Lancia parts book which clearly shows the bolts go on from the hub side. I’ll invite others to offer an opinion as to whether this needs putting right or if it’s safe as is, I can’t see a problem yet.
On other news, I’m still searching for a second knurled knob to fit the rear boot trim, I know there are two in the garage but only one has surfaced so far! I’ll get them in the post as soon as I find the second one!
Guy
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Battery ordered. Thanks for info @nigel
I have a bit of an oil leak going on somewhere, its not big, I will clean it all up and see if it comes back quick and where from. Maybe next job before the cam belt this week.
How do you get the steering lock/ignition lock out? I had a look but am struggling. Key man says the key numbers are on it.
Hi Mark, I don’t think it’s critical but I noticed that the bolts attaching the rear anti roll bar are bolted to the rear hub with the nut on the inside. This means you can’t remove the bolt easily. If you need to put it right you’ll need to remove the wheel, calliper carrier and disc, undo the three 10mm bolts holding the dust shields so you can rotate them to clear the bolt for removal.
I checked the Lancia parts book which clearly shows the bolts go on from the hub side. I’ll invite others to offer an opinion as to whether this needs putting right or if it’s safe as is, I can’t see a problem yet.
On other news, I’m still searching for a second knurled knob to fit the rear boot trim, I know there are two in the garage but only one has surfaced so far! I’ll get them in the post as soon as I find the second one!
Guy
Thank you Guy on both counts and thank you for bothering to sort out the kn0bs for me
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The ignition key number should be on the key itself, not sure if it's on the lock anywhere but happy to be corrected.
To remove the lock you need to remove the cowl and drill out two shear nuts on the opposite side of the clamp to the barrel itself. You can replace them with ordinary allen head bolts.
Guy
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If you have the key I believe you can remove the ignition barrel by undoing a screw on the side and then turning the key in the barrel to a specific position which will allow it to come out of its casing.
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Re handbrake I think I read your dimensions in a hurry confused myself and I might be wrong, I will have another look today and check again! Apologies if it turns out I'm wrong!
Well I couldn't find a definitive answer but on the earlier cars the long sleeved side goes on the offside, this is how it is orientated on my VX but I don't know if that's by design or mistake 😂 as it's years since I did anything to it!
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To remove the lock you need to remove the cowl and drill out two shear nuts on the opposite side of the clamp to the barrel itself. You can replace them with ordinary allen head bolts.
Guy
Those sheared bolts are, surprisingly, often not very tight. I got mine out by using
a hammer and centre punch positioned carefully. They rotated out fairly easily.
Nigel
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it might be easier just let him send me a couple blanks and I can get them cut locally.
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Is it ignition key that you want to copy?
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All the keys. I just have one set. The square key he is able to reverse engineer no sweat. I think I will just get blanks for the ignition and fuel cap if I cant get it out.
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Whilst underneath on the weekend I investigated the base of the gear stick, should there be a grommet protecting from the elements? I found a pile of gloop bitumen stuff dripping out/sort of covering the hole. I might need to pull it all apart and investigate, clean check. So...
How do you test for where on the gear selector bushes and link, or should I just do it? three bushes and a link from Betaboyz right?
If there is a protection grommet, can someone share some photos of the area and grommet unless I have it wrong?
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All the keys. I just have one set. The square key he is able to reverse engineer no sweat. I think I will just get blanks for the ignition and fuel cap if I cant get it out.
I think fuel cap should be there same as the doors
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Whilst underneath on the weekend I investigated the base of the gear stick, should there be a grommet protecting from the elements? I found a pile of gloop bitumen stuff dripping out/sort of covering the hole. I might need to pull it all apart and investigate, clean check. So...
How do you test for where on the gear selector bushes and link, or should I just do it? three bushes and a link from Betaboyz right?
If there is a protection grommet, can someone share some photos of the area and grommet unless I have it wrong?
If the joints/ bushes are old original they will probably be prone to failure due to age so I would change them but if course this can all get ridiculous. I ended up with an unfinished car and no time to do it because I got too fussy and was changing everything! Well as well as the rust that you don't have and a worn out engine....
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Yes there should be a big heavy oval grommet protecting the base of the gearlever and stopping ingress of water and mud into a box section and creating carnage over time. I'll get you a photograph but I would suggest asking Mark if he has a good spare one or taping over the hole permanantly. These grommets tend to get cooked by the exhaust, especially if the heatshield is AWOL.
Guy
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Hi Mark
On the ignition key, if you have an original probably simpler to get a blank. As mentioned you can get to the code, but simpler to get one copied.
As mentioned normally the fuel filler cap key is the same as the door and glove box key, but they do get swapped. Not that difficult a job to re pin them to make them all the same, just takes time and patience.
I have spare pins if you need them.
Peter
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Hi Mark
Having said that re the keys, if you wanted to give them the correct code, then I have just been through the loop.
Disconnect battery. Take off the plastic cowling around the ignition barrel. Remove the small cross headed screw in the side of the barrel. Insert the key and turn to get to the ignition on point. On the opposite side to the screw is a small pin which you press in. This allows the whole barrel to be pulled out until you can see the whole of the crimped on cover for the barrel. Carefully prise off the cover (3 crimps on mine) and that will reveal the code you are after on the face of the barrel. Mine started with A followed be 4 digits.
Photo shows the barrel pulled out and the cover separate. The code is stamped in the face of the barrel.
Hope that helps.
Peter
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Thank you all. I have three keys. All the doors and glove box use the single square profile key, the ignition and the fuel cap also use a key each. The fuel cap is a Fiat/Lancia item.
I will try and get the barrel out later. Thank you Peter.
Mark said he would call me later with some questions I have around the front bushes fitment (subframe support is bending in when I torque up), and if he has any black pressed rear arm bushes yet. I will ask him about the gear stick grommet.
You are dead right rossocorsa, I am really trying hard trying to not do everything, but at the same time be aware and understand what I need to buy and do to fix everything. I am going to get it running before I do gear selector bushes I think.
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Here's a pic of the 2 brackets on the rear panel that locate the jack and tool box (s2 Facelift). I recall that the set up was different in my 2000ie, but may be wrong.
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Can you zoom out on that shot Neil?
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HiMark, photos of the bung for the floorpan underneath the gear-lever. This is my spare one that I'm reluctant to part with in case the (marginally better) one falls out. As you can see it's not in great condition with tears and splits but it may be possible to repair it with some rubber cement if necessary. If anyone else has a spare one can they donate it to Mark?
Cheers
Guy
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I dont blame you :-)
What are dims? There must be something out there
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Slightly bigger than the hole it fits! Flange overlaps by about 5mm?
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Can you zoom out on that shot Neil?
Sorry, it is what it is, I was struggling with the light and angle. Will try again with a flash, but won't get the full panel with my camera.
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thank you
FoS today, and got home to find I have a registration number :-) Re: number plates, whats period, just normal perspex things?
PS found a Beta ;-)
M
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Yes I have the original plates for my 1978 ans they're standard perspex
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So looking at doing a cam-belt.
38mm crank-pulley nut?
Found this: https://lanciabeta.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4747.0
Anything else i need to think about?
Thinking about replacing the main cables to the starter, etc. any recommendations?
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So looking at doing a cam-belt.
38mm crank-pulley nut?
Found this: https://lanciabeta.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4747.0
Anything else i need to think about?
Thinking about replacing the main cables to the starter, etc. any recommendations?
38mm or 1.5 inch both the same, you'll need an air impact wrench to get it off, you can do it without taking the pulley off but it's much easier if you do.
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I have a Makita cordless impact wrench? I have ordered a impact socket. If not I will try plan b ;-)
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Alan is right, it is easier to do with removing the pulley, however
in all the belts I've changed, (40+?) I've never had to.
It's a slight fiddle to push the belt past the hidden guard but very do-able.
Nigel
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I have a Makita cordless impact wrench? I have ordered a impact socket. If not I will try plan b ;-)
My Makita cordless was man enough for the job so you should be OK. Odd thing with it - it will do the crank nut and driveshaft nuts which are usually FT but it struggles with wheel bolts. Answers on a postcard!
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thank you guys again. I will do the belt without removing then. Useful to have the skt to turn the crank.
Yes I have noticed the same with wheel nuts, this and a 2' Snap-on bar saved my life with suspension work on my VW van.
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Over the past few evenings after pretty hideous days at work, I have been doing some smaller tasks like removing the SA plates ready for the X plates to be fitted, getting ready to do the cam-belt and hopefully bushes at the weekend, and ordering more and more Lancia parts and sundries.
One such project was fitting the repo washer bottle in the scuttle and sort out the broken washer jet mounts. Both needed some help, one more than the other. I am happy with the results and I have saved something else. Can anyone advise the actual fixing used for this bottle? One of them has already fallen off, hoping the one left can hold it firm. I will avoid filling right up
I removed the wing liners for the cam-belt and was wondering if anyone has a view how to repair these liners, plus can I buy more of the square fixings for these liners?
Last item I removed the bonnet grill and started doing the Nigel mod using rivnuts to fix it back in to avoid having to smash it in if the bonnet release fails (again).
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Hi
The square plastic screw fixings, Mark often has them.
On the wing liner, which do you need as do have an odd spare one? On one I have which had a split, I used Sikaflex and a patch of plastic as a sort of bandage which worked well.
Also did you still need those dimpled boot liner retainer bolts?
Also I have a couple of spare washer jets.
Peter
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If Mark is out of stock, the square plastic inserts are common to Land Rovers.
Measure across the flats just below the rim. There are several sizes.
N.
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Thanks for your replies as always.
Hi Peter, I might be up for the kn0bs you are offering, Guy said he had a couple, I am in no rush at the moment. I will have a think about the liners and can I repair them as you described. They are in great condition except in a couple places. I might look through the recycle bin :-) Thanks Nigel I will look for the LR plugs, I think Mark is out.
Cam belt tomorrow if the rain allows. Bushes saga continues, finally ordered orange ones as I was getting bored, then they turned up with a sleeve spacer missing, and then Mark says black ones are in. He said he would sent them out. Maybe on Sunday I will make a start on the bushes.
Number Plates turned up, they look a bit long, so might need changing in the future. Fit those over the weekend hopefully. I will take it for a drive before doing the brakes.
Ferris
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Cam-belt done. T. Bearing felt mint so I left alone, water pump I have but am looking at doing this at the same time as inspecting the lower pipes. in the winter. Nigel your tips were ace and thanks Alan for how to tension. it took seconds to get the belt out and in the lower pulley.
Fitted the number plates even thought the rear mounts were very squiffy, I managed to do an okay/neat job. Painted the riv-nuts for the bonnet grill. If its chucking it down tomorrow I will mod the grill ready to go back in. If there is a break in the weather I will get the rear end stripped and get as many bushes in. Is there any order to do the bushes, ARB, transverse links first and second, etc?
Oh and had the alternator tested whilst off, so thats all good. Boot carpet back in and tidy.
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Its alive!
Finished the rear bushes over the weekend. Any tips on tightening hub end of the rear ARB whith the wheels on?
Engine service work and brakes next.
https://youtube.com/shorts/Be5WNt62jgU?si=QwdDuwUeiLbwnVld&utm_source=MTQxZ
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Hi Mark,
One method is to do it wheel off and use a trolley
jack with timber under the hub. Makes access a doddle.
N.
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I looked at that but was scared.
No further sign of the smoking switch gear, but also too scared to test the wipers. I will strip it all down both ends and clean etc and test again. I have a fire extinguisher in the car.
New pup came to help with a tummy lick. We lost our old girl last Monday of 16 years.
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My cars tyres are very old based on the date stamp, they feel okay but I think I need to change soon. I love the look of CN36's as my old RS2000 had back in the day. Any thoughts on sizes, or just go 185/70?
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My cars tyres are very old based on the date stamp, they feel okay but I think I need to change soon. I love the look of CN36's as my old RS2000 had back in the day. Any thoughts on sizes, or just go 185/70?
185/65 x 14 is the original size or 175/70 x 14 you can go to 195 width if you want but they are a tad wide on original alloys.
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My cars tyres are very old based on the date stamp, they feel okay but I think I need to change soon. I love the look of CN36's as my old RS2000 had back in the day. Any thoughts on sizes, or just go 185/70?
I've been using 185/65 14 for years with non power-steering. Feels just right to me. Plenty of brand choice out there too.
Chris
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My cars tyres are very old based on the date stamp, they feel okay but I think I need to change soon. I love the look of CN36's as my old RS2000 had back in the day. Any thoughts on sizes, or just go 185/70?
I think that the last series cars actually came on Pirelli P6? At least with the 185/65 option.
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185/65 14 it is. I will go and look at the P6's if they still exist
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185/65 14 it is. I will go and look at the P6's if they still exist
I don't think anything resembling the P6 is currently available and I'm not even sure that pirelli do that size. I think it's fairly difficult to get sporty tyres in these sizes nowadays.
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Toyo CF2 are a decent choice. Failing that a premium brand compact tyre such as the Goodyear Efficient grip.
If you want period looks you could talk to someone like Longstone classic tyres but they don't currently list a 175/70 or a 185/65.
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I have a set of Goodyear Efficient grip on my HPE VX. No complaints. When I look for a tyre my main criteria is Wet grip must be A, noise must 70 db or less and a recognisable name then it is price... Camskill have good deals
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Ive put Uniroyal tyres on my VX and they have been great, much better than the "ditch finders" that it had on before.The Chap that owns / runs the tyre place I used had several 80 / 90's track day cars with them on and really rated them
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(y)
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Whilst on holidays i am going to order some more nuts n bolts, and wondering if someone could a tack a picture and dims for the centre console fixings? My console is not fixed correctly
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Mark, there are two components to the centre console. The main one has a bridge bracket over the gear change at the front with a screw fittings either side. In the middle, by the handbrake, are tabs either side that take screws into the floor and at the back is the seatbelt bracket which is the really solid mount. Above the main console is an infill piece with ducting to side vents. This clips into the main dash at the top and with four oval nuts and small bolts at the bottom, two either side.
Guy
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Above the main console is an infill piece with ducting to side vents. This clips into the main dash at the top and with four oval nuts and small bolts at the bottom, two either side.
Realised i have asked this question before. Thank you Guy. I am looking for close up picture of the fixings you mention for this piece, so i can get something similar
Mark
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If you can clarify which parts I've got them all ready to photograph
1. The bridge under the main console
2. the seat belt bracket
3. floor fixings
4. upper console to lower console.
Just let me know which you need?
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I think you will call it upper to lower console fixings, “four oval nuts and small bolts at the bottom, two either side”
M
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Well today was another learning day.. i have two centre console sets and they are different! The connections been the upper and lower parts is achieved by a combination of plastic fir tree clips and oval nuts/threaded countersunk screws. And i wrongly assumed that the bag attached to console halves contained the bits needed. I have sen them so I have some more digging to do. Apologies for now!
One of my consoles has single fir tree clip each side and the one has two each side! One of the pictures below show the slot eh oval nut sits in, probably not as much help ask thought I was going t be today...
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I think my console has the two similar plug fixings, but they have used just the one ugly slotted Coach bolt. Even plain topped Coach bolts painted black will be better. I will investigate when I get home. Thanks for the effort Guy.
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Look what turned up!
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So csk screw on the small hole and plug on the big holes? What size is the csk screw please? 🙏
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It's an M4*0.7 pitch and is 15mm total length. Phillips countersunk black screw. Obviously you'll need the oval(ish) plate to fix it to. That's 16mm long, 10mm wide and 3mm thick, centre hole with semi-circular ends.
Guy
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Thank you Guy, much appreciated
M
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On holiday on Jersey and then Guernsey for a couple weeks.
So making a list of work from memory. Plan is to get most done by the end of September.
1. Check rear end torques - exhaust - wheel bearings
2. front disc and pads
3. engine oil and filter
4. gearbox oil
5. rad out and flush - new air filter pipe - new coolant
6. carb might need a strip/cable?
7. new brake hoses and compensator - bleed
8. interior out, clean - install nice
9. switch gear, ignition switch wipers - maybe change instruments for mph?
10. remove liners - wash underside - wax inj etc
11. finish bonnet grill mod
12. spring on bonnet release
13. new main power and earth - alt cable?
14. adjust drivers door
15. paint touch up
16. fit leather steering wheel
17. Fix tensioner bolt
18. Check valve clearances and new gaskets
No particular order. I might remove the interior when I do the wax inj and protection so I can really inspect and protect. Brakes feel good so this might be a winter project. Hoses need to be replaced but they are not terrible. Not MOT pass capable though I am sure.
Part of the list is to fix and service obvious, the rest is to have a look and to inspect. Not sure how successful I will be and depends on how long the nice weather continues.
I also am away with friends cycling in the French Alps, need to crack on with my workshop plan/base so to get the garage free in Oct. Oh and I have house exterior painting to do.
Longer term things to think about, but no rush or priority
1. Wiring
2. exhaust
3. interior - re trim and recaros
4. repaint sills and front and rear valances
5. led lights
6. Stereo
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So had a few minutes today to research some interior designs I might do instead of VX cloth. My other idea is VWGolf GTi black and tartan, with a hint of red like this.
I thought it would go well with the Lancia maroon - Amaranto Ardenza 158
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Checked the rear suspension torque settings again using the torques Alan helped me with. Thanks again Alan 😎. Replaced the bushes in the compensator linkage. Quick road test revealed it’s still clonking, I am sure it’s the exhaust now.
Quick question, how much play should there be in the rear wheel bearings?
Also adjusted the throttle cable using Nigel’s formula. Much better but not quite…. Maybe it’s the wrong cable. I will check again.
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Mark,
There shouldn't be any play in the wheel bearings. If you feel some,
then there's probably some wear. Typically, a noisy rumble is more likely.
They are not adjustable.
On mine, the throttle cable crimped section enters the outer plastic sleeve slightly
on full throttle. I don't know if this is normal but I suspect not.
N.
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Add new wheel bearings to my list :D NS is defo the worst
Re: Throttle cable: Same here on the cable end, it sometimes gets jammed and will not smoothly enter the outer (and I think this is why it was adjusted not to open the second choke), there was a some heat shrink covering this to smooth it out but has perished. Anyone have a clue what part number or length my cable inner/outer should be?
I will re-look at this over the weekend and see if the angle of attack can be adjusted.. Thanks Nigel
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Hi Mark
Good news/bad news
The good is the rear bearings are easier to replace than the fronts (slightly), the bad is ideally you will need a decent rattle gun to get the retaining ring off which needs a special tool or you can use a chisel and hammer but need to replace the retaining ring. The front and rear retaining rings look the same but are slightly different sizes. They are often hard to remove.
Peter
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I will check the rings tonight then and order 4x bearings and a tool, I have a gun :-)
TVM Peter, your items are here btw, thank you again ;D
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I didnt get around to checking the wheel bearings tonight. I did an oil and filter change on the Beta and my VW Caravelle ready for a lads bike and hike trip to the French Alps in a week and a bit.
The VW is my previous project which was a complete mechanical refurb of a 150k 11 year old t5.1 BiTDI 180bhp 4motion van. It had a wasted engine, so I had a new VW crate engine and turbo's fitted 18m ago.
So the Beta... When I got the car the engine oil was milky so I changed oil for some cheaper Halfords stuff before I could drive it This time I changed the oil and filter after giving it a 30 min run. I used an engine flush before changing it. I have another change of oil ready. I was thinking the flush stuff will be still in the engine a little bit, so I will do this again in the next few weeks to really make sure. I got a free almost gallon when the delivery people delivered a 'bag of oil'. So why not.
It was going dark when I finished, and the car wouldnt start. Maybe I knocked something off taking the filter off? One that note, OMG the filter is horrible to change!! Any tips? I was really careful but what a mess.
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Oh forgot to mention. The 30m drive was quite nice. I took it easy and nice a slow gear changes. The clonking at the back NS is only when I go over big bumps. I will investigate the bearings because it does seem loose, only other thing I havnt tried is strut bolts on the top. The thing is when you are just pootling along is pretty silent. Combination of horrible roads where I live and the exhaust noise its hard to work out whats going on. I will keep looking.
I have ordered a bunch of things from Midwest Bayless Italian Auto, including a gear change refurb kit that was quite good value for money and a magnetic sump plug and a few other parts. Three days it was here, mad isnt it!
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Hi Mark
I had a clonking at the rear which did indeed turn out to be one of the two straps holding the exhaust box which runs just behind the back seats had one of the bolts come loose. Tightened it and all has been good.
Peter
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I was thinking it might be a lot quicker if I could get it on a ramp and have a beak underneath with a Quick-fit-fitter ;-)
When taking it easy through the gears, its smooth and quiet, its the bumps that faze it. I will not ignore that wheel bearing though. Some point I need one of you to drive it. Rear end feels very soggy
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It was going dark when I finished, and the car wouldnt start. Maybe I knocked something off taking the filter off? One that note, OMG the filter is horrible to change!! Any tips? I was really careful but what a mess.
Found it today. Broken wire into the dizzy
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Rear end feels very soggy
Not much to go wrong at the back, either bushes or dampers or combination of both. Would be odd if the springs were at fault as car is pretty light especially at the back. Bushes are easy to check, whilst there check the rear mounting bars for the hubs are not bent. Not uncommon for folk to use them to tow a car and they are pretty fragile if used for that.
Rear tracking issues would cause issues with handling in corners normally. Easy enough to check using the string method at home.
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Don't forget to check top mounts and look for worn shocks too? If the bottom bolts aren't seized then shock removal is straight forward, four nets at the top accessible from the boot, two bolts at the bottom and the strut drops out.
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I will check the top bolts this weekend and have a nose about again
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If the issue is with the top mounts it'll be the state of the rubber in the mount itself. Unfortunately that best way of inspecting those is to get the struts off the car and compress the springs.
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It was going dark when I finished, and the car wouldnt start. Maybe I knocked something off taking the filter off? One that note, OMG the filter is horrible to change!! Any tips? I was really careful but what a mess.
Found it today. Broken wire into the dizzy
Fixed it.
Plus fitted my new to be screws in the boot Peter sent over :-) Thanks again Peter
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Anyone have one of the bonnet retaining wire I am missing I could buy or borrow to copy?
Mark
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Looking at it I am sure I can have a stab at making this np.
Another question, should the dipstick be hollow enough to blow through?
Mark
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The dipstick is indeed hollow as it has a level gauge on the dash, which
uses that feature to pull up the oil.
N
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Think I found my clunking…
https://youtu.be/MKDfbMvqDEM?si=dvsk73RvjwN8uASz
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That's a clonk alright but is it the top mount making it or the shock absorber or a spring mounting rubber pad missing?
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I will take it out as soon as I get time and investigate.
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Think I found my clunking…
https://youtu.be/MKDfbMvqDEM?si=dvsk73RvjwN8uASz
should I be able to stick a fine wire up it? It seems blocked.
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This is possibly my clonking NS rear noise... Along with the exhaust and the wheel bearings
How would 'I' fix this? I have been re-leaning to MIG weld so might give it a go. I said 'might' ;-)
It looks worse than it is. Nigel said I should strip the underseal and inside soundproofing next. Any thoughts?
Mark
PS took it on its biggest drive last night in semi dark, down the A3 and back through Esher. Even hit 4k rpm :-O
Changed the g'box and diff oil, it was horrible
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Hi Mark
Sorry hard for me to tell. Is it the top mount which has broken or the rubber collapsed?
Peter
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My point about removing the interior Mark, is to prevent any risk of fire whilst welding, something that would have to be done anyway.
N
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My point about removing the interior Mark, is to prevent any risk of fire whilst welding, something that would have to be done anyway.
N
100% understand Nigel.
I think the panel that sits behind the strut, has a spot welded lip at the top looks like some of the welds have given way. I will strip it of sealant and see if its more obvious.
Wipers also next, was out to see a mate tonight and it rained... ::)
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So back from France but spent the week on chores and getting my workshop base ready (er). This morning after puppy watching first thing and picking up George from refereeing I managed a couple hours before the rain appeared on cue after lunch.
So NS door panel off to wax and lube the window mech. What a surprise to find the door plastics in place. Missing a bunch of clips but waxed and lubed up the window with silicon spray and see if that helps before a remove and full overall once in the garage. Metalwork inside the door as always is mint.
Flushed the cooling system a few more times. I had some rad flush in there for a while on fresh water. I now used some dissolved dishwasher tabs cleaned the exp tank and ran it up to temp again. Flushed again. Now ready to refill but thought I would take the rad out to check and repaint at least, and at the same time replace the vent hose to the filter. Or do I bin for a catch tank like Nigels? Engine stab. bar bushes need replacing. I will order those this week.
Took the NS inner wing liners out ready for a clean and wax. This side is completely mint behind it.
Plan is next to get the rad back in and correct coolant in, full wax is big priority. Then its wipers etc, brakes and rear wheel bearings. So far front looks okay.
Oh on the 2nd Oct its booked into a local firm that seems to do a few classics that was recommended by @onefelloff. Main thing is look at my possible failing spot welds/clonk/exhaust NS rear. I will see if they can do four wheel tracking also.
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Rad out. It seems okay and its nice and clean inside. Mat, satin or gloss black?
Mark
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Hi Mark
Which part of the rad are you painting?
If it is not necessary I would leave as is as paint will hinder the cooling?
Peter
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Good point. Just the ends etc
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Rad out and cleaned up a bit with some Frost Rad Satin Black. Radiator is a bit ratty, it doesnt leak but I think a winter project to get it refurbed once its in the garage. I got a price for £400 so far.
Tidyied up and added insulation/heat shrink to some of the leads going to and from the starter, changed a pipe to the airfilter.
Sprayed the bodywork in front of the subframe, did some wax rustproofing in this area, and leading edge of the bonnet All back in and new blue antifreeze. Tested etc.
Wipers now. I have them loose but gave up for today trying to get them out. I tried powering them up direct but they seemed dead. We will see.
Wax injection the other door, now the back panels behind the doors next.
Also talked to a trimmer recommended by a mate in the trade. I am going to see if I can get my Recaro's covered the same as the current trim. Possibly a cheaper option to the Vx cloth complete retrim. All the seats and trim is mint, I just want Recaro's fitted. I would also like the headlining refreshed. Sorting the interior is something for a years time maybe.
https://www.coachtrimmers.com/previous-projects
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So what a lovely few days of lot of Beta work...
So today I got the wiper mech out after a faff. Once I powered it straight to the connections on the motor and then moved the mech to the right/middle of the car it was easy-peasey.
First I got my camera up under the bulkhead/scuttle. Oh my its so clean. Some tiny surface rust in the corners I will treat, and then spray it with Bilt-Hamber before I put it back together. I gave it a good wash and unblocked one the rubber drains. I will clean and re-test the connections at the block connector as they were not working yesterday.
I then moved on to the ignition switch replacement. I purchased a new one (from Alan) it was a little worn and I needed a set of keys made as I only have the one for the original. LHD switch gear next, so set to making plates so to align correctly. I removed the dash dials/binnacle. Its a bit of a mess but it all works. I do have mph. Not decided what to do yet. The rubber for the oil level is like new.
The speedo wire connection is a mess, I will order a new one. Also found this box, I Googled the picture and instantly it found it, amazing. It could be a door entry system, a alarm or a remote door looking/unlocking thing. It does have working central locking fitted so this could be it? More investigating is needed..
Some pictures:
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Rustproof it. Do it again. And again. Preserve it. Pickle it so it never rots on you!
I'd almost be tempted to take the screen out so you can get at the inner plastic surround, remove that and get at the retaining clips that keep it in place that WILL have scratched the steel underneath.
Guy
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I will investigate that for the future Guy.
Mark
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Wipers. Stripped, cleaned and greased. Cleaned all the connectors and replaced the sticks.
Its all works well sort of ... I have intermittent, slow and fast but no park. Pretty much same if I direct feed the terms on the motor. Sometimes I can get a park to do something but its not what it should be doing. Anyone had the motor apart? I might investigate next and see if its fixable.
https://youtube.com/shorts/KqREZsyon6o?si=QmYspM4zGvpM7oXX
LHD stalks fitted and ignition switch. Found the the plug for the fog lights so they are working now. Just need to tidy all this wiring up tomorrow. I will look at making one good instrument binnacle out of the two I have (I bought one off of ebay ages ago. Ordered a new speedo cable.
Rust treated the far ends of the scuttle area and Bilt Hamber Dynax-UC treated.
Plan is to make a start on the front discs this week, moving on to hoses, compensator, bleed and then hopefully rear wheel bearings (ordered tonight from Mark). I am missing the hub nuts and the tool. Any suggestions?
PS the gizmo is for the central door locking, so back in. I am thinking one day the dash is coming out and I will sort out it all.
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Hi Mark
For park, have you checked if you have 12v on blue/black when switch is in off position?
Peter
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Good point. I will check. Silly I didnt do that. I tried powering up the park contacts on the motor, and mostly nothing
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Park contacts?
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so at the connector (no load/motor disconnected)
Grey - Fast - 11.2
Blue/White - slow - 11.2
Blue - Int - 10.2
Blue/Black - Park? - off 11.2/int 11.3~10.4
With motor connected and running free (no wipers)
Grey - Fast - 8.9
Blue/White - slow - 9.5
Blue - Int - 8.6
Blue/Black - Park? - off 11.2/int 11.3~9.5
I guess nothing to loose but strip the motor contacts area?
Mark
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Hi Mark
Did you do the checks as per this?
https://lanciabeta.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4906.40
In short
Black is GND
Blue i+12V continuous running slow
Grey +12V continuous running fast
Blue/Black +12V runs until park position
Blue/White pulled to ground to stop motor at park position, only gnd when Blue is NOT attached to 12V
Note if you do not GND Blue/White with the motor free running then applying power to blue/black can result in the motor over running park and appears to run continuously. GND to blue/white will bring the motor to a fast stop at the park position.
Peter
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so at the connector (no load/motor disconnected)
Grey - Fast - 11.2
Blue/White - slow - 11.2
Blue - Int - 10.2
Blue/Black - Park? - off 11.2/int 11.3~10.4
With motor connected and running free (no wipers)
Grey - Fast - 8.9
Blue/White - slow - 9.5
Blue - Int - 8.6
Blue/Black - Park? - off 11.2/int 11.3~9.5
I guess nothing to loose but strip the motor contacts area?
Mark
These voltages are indicative of a drop somewhere in the loom, which is what I had.
See if you can trace the wiring backwards from the column through the intermittent relay
through to the wiper motor. Somewhere there will be your fault.
N.
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I am going to pop it back in and see how bad it is again. I have tried to bend the tab back on the park contacts. the springy thing does move better. I will try testing again tonight.
Moving on to instruments, anyone have experience of cleaning the pcb - plastic circuit board?
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WD40 brand have a contact cleaner available from Screwfix which does
that job well.
Pay attention to the 3 connector strips that fold over plastic stirrups. This
is a weak area where breakage can occur.
N.
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tvm Nigel
Moving on to my planned weekend of works. Rear Wheel brgs.. Any thoughts on if a 6t cheapo press will handle this work?
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Hi
Worked ok for me.
Peter
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Cheap Chinese presses work perfectly for most jobs and are brilliant for many tasks
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I can vouch for that, some jobs are a real pain without one of them, putting new bearings in is a breeze with one.
Peter
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tvm Nigel
Moving on to my planned weekend of works. Rear Wheel brgs.. Any thoughts on if a 6t cheapo press will handle this work?
Seconding the others, yes, no problem.
N
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Useful bit of kit - weight the cost of buying and storing one against the cost of having the bearings pressed in professionally. Might not be much in it? Of course you can always sell the press once you're done with it. That's what I've done with other hydraulic kit once I'm finished even if I know I'll replace it in years to come. And yes, that'll include the mid rise scissor lift once I'm finished!
Guy
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Fitting a rear bearing with a press is a breeze....However, removing the old bearing can be "entertaining". I have heard tell of people having to grind a slot in the inner race and then chiseling it off the stub axle.
In preparation for undertaking this task on my Beta, I invested in a hub pulling kit which turned out to be relatively useless as this tool just pulls on the outer race causing the whole bearing to break apart leaving just the inner race stuck fast on the axle. The tool just couldnt free the inner race
Thankfully, I can report that the grinding and chiseling method works a treat if you are feeling brave.
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I think I'd invest in a specific tool for doing all four bearings next time. The grind and chisel method works but it's easy to damage stub axles that way.
I'd get something like this. Other sellers/manufacturers are available!
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/317327625872?_skw=bearing++removal+tool&itmmeta=01K5ZWQ0WVHZH6CG4XBVTVXD2N&hash=item49e2334e90:g:mJQAAeSwe4Jo1ATm&itmprp=enc%3AAQAKAAAA0FkggFvd1GGDu0w3yXCmi1fgKFzxbxwux%2F0p%2F3%2B7daXkdK9PdE1WAdjiBlcKeEknrf4K%2FfTPVWbfdAg3zegbF42rnDUS8ecw2%2BY9ixQVkME6L7JLhUjPxxkrUvC3wu2ZpgQp8Swp73ASSj01otE63Cc3UdzSw3HMaj7y5AHZLVK%2FZm%2B4ZT6ABRmRzAVOFBUavgSL9Vh9JOJ2YCr84iqWMOUOOMACN0mtAK2vLDC%2BfurA2exFlniHabKB2irEAgDxkKZILppG3mWVjUlsQ9reVt4%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR9iP3PyvZg
Guy
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Hi Guy,
Yep this is very simlar to the kit I bought and the bolts got over stressed trying to pull the inner race off...hence having to resort to the chisel method.
Maybe I was just unlucky that mine were so stuck on.
Steve
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Tony said he can help (y) 8)
I will make a start this weekend - front discs and pads and then rear hubs off. After that its hoses and 'compensator', thingy.
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Whilst you're replacing the brake balance compensator keep the original rubber boot, the one I got from Mark wouldn't fit as the tension bar needed to come in from the opposite side. A know problem but if you've chucked the original away it's too late. I'd also have a good look at the state of the bushes in the compensator linkage, mine were broken up and wouldn't have allowed the compensator to work at all. I think Mark carries a suitable stock!
Guy
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Thank you Guy. I have been keeping all the old parts so far inc old bushes that have turned to dust, which included these.
I purchased all the bushes and fitted the round ones, just the guide one still to fit
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On the rear bearings inner race removal. The hub has two small holes where you can poke a punch to remove the inner race, at least there is on the hubs I have.
Peter
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not a clue what any of you are talking about. I guess I will be the end of the weekend 8)
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Hi Mark
When you remove the hub which attaches to the wheel, the bearing outer part normally comes away with the hub, leaving the inner part attached to the spindle part which is attached to the suspension. It is this inner part which can be punched out using the holes (2 opposing) as shown below.
Peter
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Nice. Thank you
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This weekend:
New front discs, cleaned new to me steering arm rubber shrouds cleaned and in (OS was an utter ####), wax inj the whole front inner wings, up the A pillar and down the sills as far as I can, whole inner wing etc with Bilt Hamber stuff
Rear hubs out. Wiper motor back together and back in. Still no park. Washers all in and working. The passenger side is all over the place and is broken. Wiper work'ish but dont park. I guess its a new motor, new wires and a relay at some point?
Waiting for 10mm brake tool to show up then sort out the hoses this week hopefully. Also repainting the brakes from red to black.
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Tonight
Speedo cable (not fun) - there seems to be a clip that looks like the speedo cable should slot into it along with a heater hose - I will take a photo tomorrow. Wiring is messy, stop looking at it for the time being...
Adjusted the drivers door a bit so it doesnt catch at the bottom. I will order some new door bolts to make a better job of it. Door check device on both sides could do with replacing. Plus the door light switch needs a clean sometime. I need to touch up the paint on the door edge but the touch-up I purchased is miles out colour wise.
I think I fixed my instruments with some copper tape with conductive adhesive, and low and behold it seems to work (tested out of the car).
Bearings are here, as is the 10mm brake spanner. Taking Friday off to see if I can get it back running for Saturday
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Nice fix on the cluster, should last ok.
Peter
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I had to do a few more. I am missing a few lights. They were all LED's in the old cluster and now I am not sure what direction they were fitted. I think its far simpler to fit normal bulbs clean all the contacts and try again. I found a new one for £250 in Italy... another £250 ::)
I found this white clip whist fitting my speedo cable behind the fusebox, should it be clipped in? I am guessing the large space is for the original heater hose?
I looked on a few rebuilds here and couldnt find it on other members cars...
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So late this afternoon and this evening: Instruments back in, speedo cable sorted, fusebox back, new under bonnet light in, interior almost back in, steering wheel on.
Underneath to replace the Compensator, ready for brakes on Friday
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All day today fitting the rear hubs, and removing a brake caliper at a time and cleaning up, pushing the piston in and out a bit, and repainting black from red, back in with new hoses, banjo bolts etc. Then Bilt Hamber's all the inner wings area.
So far 3x calipers done and one back in. So 4x nipples all good after weeks of cleaning and pluzgas and 4x hoses replaced.
Problem. I cannot get one union off. I have tried heat and pluzgas abck and forth and still nothing. I will try again in the morning. Bolt head is a mess now so its molegrips. Question is can I cut the very end off and insert a new union bolt and re-swage with a handheld?
So the thread is M10x1.25, any ideas on the tubing size (for ordering a swage tool), either way I need one..
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Standard 3/16 pipe, a couple of unions, a hacksaw and a flare tool is all you need. Cut the pipe as close to the chewed up union as possible and remove it from the master cylinder and use it as a pattern to make the new pipe. Just don't forget the second union on the pipe before you put the second flare on.
Guy
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Hi Mark
Just to add to Guy's comments.
I use Copper Nickel pipe which is widely available and is what most folk use.
On the flaring tool, I had an old school one inherited from my father which was worn and a pain to use, so I bought one of these hand held tool, which work really well.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/306357430674?
Loads of different sellers both on Ebay and off of these.
The thing which I did not know when I bought mine is that there are 2 different types of flares offered. I suspect the original as per my Spider was called SAE and used on European cars at the time, not sure when but there is also a DIN flare which is what is pretty much universally used now. You will find that 99% of sellers of the fittings are for DIN, I had to look hard to find anyone who even understood the difference and the fittings are a lot more expensive as a consequence. Google the difference which is subtle, but if I was you I would go for the DIN version and you then have a wide range of suppliers and materials for the fittings. Note that the SAE and DIn flare mate with the same female ends, so the choice is yours.
Peter
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Oh pants! I have already ordered a Franklin Tools Hand Held Brake Pipe Flaring Tool AF2003 3/16 which is SAE. I was assuming I would be safe as its going into the original MC and new pipes from Mark, plus I was going to order a couple M10x1.25 Brake union's from Mark again. Do you think I need a DIN version instead?
This DIN and SAE is all new to me, more researching
https://353652584127257704.weebly.com/store/p1073/Brake_Union_Brass.html
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https://www.carbuilder.com/products/brass-m10-x-125-single-male-brake-union
So this will be DIN and I need a DIN tool?
Annoying no mention...
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Hi Mark
You would have to check with them. I bought mine from Automec who also go to the NEC shows. You may have to ring to confirm which is correct, but they definitely do SAE
https://www.automec.co.uk/
Peter
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Thanks Peter.
Final caliper off. Molegrips... Now to make a new brake pipe ASAP.
All the nipples, banjo's and brake pipe unions, bar the one, were easily freed. Not bad really
So three back together, handbrake adj, more Bilt Hamber and the liner in on the o/s front. Just the one side to fit in the morning.
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Rear end all torqued back up. Front n/s caliper back in and one pipe connected. What a relief the pipe is now out. It is a SAE double flare, but Peter (I think) said its about the union fitting type. So send the SAE tool back and either buy the parts and make my own c£80~90, or find someone local to make the 30cm pipe :P
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Hi Mark
£80-£90? The tool, pipe and fittings should only come to around £20/£25.
Peter
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It is a SAE double flare
There's some good pics here of the various end types and unions:
https://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/soliciting-for-opinion-very-pointed-question.26464/post-220548
Surprised yours aren't DIN - perhaps cut off the union and post a close up of the end?
Something useful for next time is one of these:
https://amzn.eu/d/5E4WUsf
They grip on 3 sides so don't chew the hex like a stock mole grip or slip like a standard flare (open ended) spanner.
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Tool £15, pipe £30, fittings £6, and a pipe bender £25~£30
I am going to see if Automec will make a 320mm pipe for me with 2x m10x1.25, they do list a lot. Okay I still need a pipe bender.
Here you go @ICS19.
I have a set of those tiny little vise-grips. To get this loose I used a lot of heat, pluz-gas and a set of 12" molegrips in the end. This was stuck fast
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Hi Mark
You should be able to get the pipe for £10 and a bender for not much more, but probably simpler to get one made up for you.
Best of luck!
Peter
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Interesting - that union end does look rounded like a DIN, but the flare shoulder angle is more SAE, obviously seals fine and surprisingly doesn't look that compressed given the pain it was to remove.
If you go down the automec route, you'll find they supply "universal flare" ends, which appear more like double flares - had a set on the montecarlo, not a problem. There's an overview of the ends here, not specifically automec, but the style is the same:
https://mossmotoring.com/hydraulic-pipes-with-universal-flares/
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Automec are making one for me. Here tomorrow :-)
So I could be bleeding on Wednesday. Finally moving again... and ready for the weekend
So I have a wiper motor coming (Thank you Alan). I was thinking an MOT...
Brakes, suspension, corrosion, lights, steering... What else should I be checking? I have always wondered if the jets in the carb need to be different being it lived in SA and drank SA fuel once?
I do think next is big ticket items - rad recon (£350), tyres £500+ and possibly new rear struts £500. I will need to save for a bit
thanks for all your help and input again
Mark
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So late this afternoon and this evening: Instruments back in, speedo cable sorted, fusebox back, new under bonnet light in, interior almost back in, steering wheel on.
Underneath to replace the Compensator, ready for brakes on Friday
That's impressively bright. Any advice apart from cleaning contacts as mine could do with a few extra lumens . ..
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I bought a set of background LED's from
https://www.midwest-bayless.com
When I opened my unit up there was already LED's everywhere. I tried normal bulbs from my spare unit but didnt like it so I moved the LED's back in. It does look a bit cold war florescent to me so suits the era 8)
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Over in Montecarlo land we have had great results with Classic Car LEDS https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/?srsltid=AfmBOopstwarehpeUE3Yr62h_j-iyydVgt8tBA0KwBP88YlfgYAS68GD They have made a kit for the Monte and I have most of it on mine. The quality is far better than the ebay specials and they are not too big for the housings as many ebay ones are. An amazing transformation in tail lights and indicators. Of course you need an LED specific flasher relay which they also supply. Enjoy.
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I was looking at doing this for my car at some point. Thanks for confirming Eric.
Brake pipe and bending tool has turned up. Had a couple evenings off the car as my wife was away in Barcelona, I was on duty for kids and pup. Not a rest but at least different I really needed the rest. I am so over suspension and brake work. Tomorrow I will set up the compensator and fit the brake pipe. Friday/Saturday I will bleed it.
S/H wiper motor here care of Alan.
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So brake pipe fitted yesterday, checked the adjustment on the compensator, and went for it and bled the brakes last night. I went and gave it a quick roadtest. Brakes work, just, pull up straight, but very long travel and soggy as hell. They were really good before the new hoses, discs and other parts. I am going to re-bleed again tomorrow.
I used a new pressurised bleed kit. It seemed to work well at the time, it did as told and do front circuit front first and then work my way back. I have always done furthest first. I might try this tomorrow.
Another question. My new speedo cable does screw down tight on the gearbox. I have thrown the old cable away now so cant compare. There is also no seal. So the screw fixing goes tight but the inner part is very loose and lots of slack. Any thoughts?
I can back from the quick roadtest and found a light oil everywhere under the bonnet. Unfortunately its all looks like it could be from around the gearbox filler/speedo cable area or the brake MC.
I washed it all down, and cant see anything obvious today. Tomorrow I will re-bleed and investigate.
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Hi Mark,
Light oil...must be brake fluid surely ? I read that you replaced the brake pipe to the front and so my guess if that the flare at the Master cylinder is perhaps not seated and could be leaking fluid past the thread and dripping / spraying under pedal pressure onto the gearbox. I presume it is a bubble flare ? . A new flare may also need more judicial tightening to form a good seat/seal upon first fitment.
Also, just fitted a new speedo cable but had not yet connected it up at the gearbox. Just been into the garage to do this and can confirm it screws in the gearbox completely and securely.
Cheers,
Steve
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Is there a seal inside?
I am thinking you are right. I will get someone to stand on it after a check and re-bleed
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Hi Mark,
No, there is no seperate seal as such...I was meaning that maybe the flare that has been formed on the new piece of brake pipe may not be sealing perfectly and need nipping up to mould in fully ?
Sorry for the confusion.
I really hope for the sake of you sanity that this is a loose fitting and not the same issue as I have. Very keen to hear your progress with this one.
Steve
PS Sent you a PM
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so drive again and still the same. No oil or water everywhere.
I checked all the connections for the new brake pipe from the MC. I think it could be coolant as I have stripped the rad out and all pipes removed. I think it could be one of the expansion tank connections. The 8mm hose from the expansion tank to the rad looks very tired. I will replace it.
So wheels off. What did I find? I found a weeping connection on the os front mixed circuit connection to the hose. Sorted that out. Then I found a very wet rear os caliper. I bought rebuild kits for the rear so I just got on with it. Long story short, its all back together and bleed tonight and it does feel pretty good. I did front calipers circuit and then did mixed starting furthest caliper first. I will double check in the morning after a night on stands.
Odd story with this caliper. When I got the car I was mooching about underneath and noticed this calipers piston dust seal off. So I whipped it off and found inside the dust seal, the actual piston seal just sat there. No leaking fluid. So I popped it all back on and got one with life. So when I pulled it apart did I find no seal? Nope it had a seal... very odd.
I still think the rear ns shock is dead. Time to start looking for a pair of replacements. Steering wheel is also quite a bit out from centre. I guess I get the tracking done soon and take if from there.
If its all good tomorrow is off to Brooklands on Sunday. My first show :-)
PS - I noticed I am missing a big grommet to the right of the brake servo, looks about 30mm.
Also what should be here where the vent pipes head into the boot area from the underside? There is a seal on the other side with a metal cover, should there be something here also?
Lastly this is foxing me. My wipers have a 7mm bayonet fitting, one wiper connection has broken but I cant find any replacements, any thoughts?
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The hole next to the servo is for the LHD clutch cable, just needs a grommet.
There is no seal underneath where the fuel pipes are. The top seal and plate should
be sufficient. You could add some extra closed-cell foam I guess.
I can't see what end shape you have on that wiper arm, but most new blades seem to have
every option in the box, often numerous plastic bits included.
N.
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Cinders can go to the ball :-) @Brooklands today
First show. LMC members were a great bunch today.
Re: wipers - I am wondering Nigel, it used be the case but the set I purchased just had U clip arrangement only.
I tested another Beta brake pedal and think I can go better with the bleeding. They work fine.
Gear selector rebuild then rear shocks, tyres, carb rebuild clean and maybe valve clearances next.
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Well done for getting out in the Beta. That is the hoodo broken.
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Good seeing you their Mark, your car looks amazing (y)
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You've made some great progress Mark.
And the first 'official' outing!
Don't ever think it's finished, that has two effects: planning the next task
is not urgent but will be rewarding, and redoing stuff you've already done is even
more betterer.
..and never mind the cost!
Nigel
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Tee-hee Nigel :-)
More rustproofing this weekend maybe. Swap out the wiper motor and maybe the instruments thanks to Alan and Peter respectively
Mark
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Ordered a big grommet, for the big ole down the side of the servo. It turned up. Smeared some silicone grease in it. Carefully tried to get it in place over the hole with fingertips. Bugger dropped it down the back of the servo. Why on earth is there a gap behind it. Charged up my endoscope…. There it is I can see it.. messed about with a long picker thing. Eventually got it.
No it isn’t the one I bought. It’s the old one! Where is the new one? That was further down. With the endoscope and fingers and screwdrivers I managed to get it out. Popped the new one back in the hole. That two holes found and blocked now.
I am going to try and fix the rear view mirror this weekend. Tyres ordered for the end of the month. Uniroyal Rain somefings, 185/65 x14
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Hi Mark,
That rear view mirror split is a classic issue and an all too common problem. I seriously doubt you can fix it as the plastic will have shrunk such that it will not come to gether to glue or fill. I have been there with exactly the same split.
I printed a clip over cover which us a snug fit and completely hides the cracks. it looks so much better then before. I may re-finish it by lightly sanding and spraying with texturised plastic paint to make it indistinguishable from OE.
I also print my own Gromets / bungs using a type of plastic called TPU which has rubber like qualities...yes I am sooooo sad
Steve
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Wow that is good. You need to start selling (please) all these cool bits. I might have a good one in its way, but would be up for repairing the current to pass on maybe.
Mark
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Plus one (well probably two or three) for me too!
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A few little jobs today:
New battery connections
New bonnet pins
Remove the wiper motor again - super easy when you know how; ready for a the new replacement
some rust prevention work in the boot
some endo camera work in the sills - looking good 8)
stuck the badges back on and a small item of trim - anyone ever found the little x-clips anywhere? I have found the 21mm ones at a few places now but not the small ones
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I'm pretty sure that little X clip is the wrong one for that spot Mark - it should be one that's triangular in shape that retains the head od a bolt and is secured with a washer and nut from within the boot. I think I've got a couple of the correct ones spare. That little X clip might be usable by someone able to copy and 3D print it?
Guy
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Exactly, those X clips, another thing on the 3D printer list.....
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Nice one....another 3D printer challenge :)
It is raining here in Western Australia (very rare) and a perfect excuse to fire up the old printer. I will have a look at how this trim piece is fixed on mine and model that.
Also, I noticed that the fixing cups for the grille on the top of the bonnet are missing....same on mine and yes, I am such a nerd that I have printed these for my car. The original cups fitted onto pegs which are part of the grille itself and then fixed on the bonnet with a cup & star clip/washer. The pegs almost always break in the process of removing the grille and so resort to an alternitive fix. I also 3D printed the pegs (of course) and drilled holes into the grille and glued them in.
Is all this unnecessary ?....well probably but when you have a printer, you scavenge for things to make.
Steve
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I removed the rear trim piece on my car to find that there were 2 OE fixings...I was stunned as my car has been a collection of awful bodges so far and it is no nice to find that there is an OE part. I half expected to find it glued on with bathroom sealant.
I have created copies of the rectangular and trapeziodal (had to look up that name !!) types on the printer
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your getting good at this :-) Its really cool when you find something like this in a car 40 year plus old. I always used to find the small parts missing in the engine compartment from breakers yards when I had these as teens. I thought it was really cool/funny finding the old grommet when fitting the new one the other day. Read up.
M
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hahaha...absolutely
I was missing the clamp plates that secure the front flexi pipes to the strut. I found a couple in a bag of nuts and bolts left over from previous Betas I owned in the UK over 30 years ago... Never throw anything away !
Steve
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Thanks to Peter I received a new instruments panel, rear view mirror and washer jet and mount.
Last night I decided to swap the plastic circuit boards from my rebuilt dash and the new one, sort of making the best of all the bits. This morning plugged it all in and everything is working now. Excellent. In the process of getting some slack on the speedo cable the plastic bracket that holds in place the mounting broke a bit more. No issue I will just drill it out and replace with a nut and bolt. Easy right! Three hours later it was in place. What a terrible job.
Sorted out the washers.
Also last night I made a bonnet safety pin from a picture Nigel sent. First go and tailed it with some 4mm piano wire.
Even got to use it picking my son up from rugby practice. smacked it on the speed bump in their car park though. I dont think I will be lowering it. I got to push the engine a bit more and test the brakes. Seems now issues there. They pulled up nice and straight.
This week it will be back on axle stands, and take out the offending clunk strut and start looking at getting the rear struts built and replaced. New tyres go in on Friday. I will look at valve clearances, engine timing and maybe gear change bushes this week
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So a week on axle stands and rear suspension apart again. n/s strut out and found its a screw top and backed off but not loose, hence my clonk and defo a HPE strut. So I am going to build up some old struts and covert to screw top and fit some spax gas non adj cartridges (with a lot of help from my friends 8) )
wheels washed and weight removed and cleaned ready for new tyres tomorrow. I wonder how bent my wheels will be?
Both struts cut up and loaded in the van for a trip to Nigel's. I will now look for a powder coater. Front struts are also screw tops so hoping I can just add new Spax carts when I am ready?
Whilst the wheels off I have now found I have an oil leak somewhere. I think its a front seal but the rear cam box looks a bit weepy. I am paranoid its brake fluid but sure its engine oil. I will check the level over the weekend and see if it possible to see its lost oil. Bloody dip stick is so shite its difficult to see.
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Hi
If you do need any rims let me know…. ( yes I have quite a few spare). Ideally before next weekend as can bring to the NEC
Peter
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struts dropped off to be cleaned and powder coated. Cant wait to see what it drives like :-)
Cam cover off looking for leaks and cannot find a thing. Not sure what to make of this? very long 10mm spanner ordered to get that darn middle bolt in easier going forward.
Dash is looking good now @peter with its LED's in the low light :-)
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struts are back, hopefully build up and fit on Sunday. OMG a non clonking new gas rear struts car!! 8)
Mark
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Very nice looking....
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I seem to have a seized rear caliper so stripping it down currently and rebuilding with a new piston kit I had. The seal seems to be braking up. Maybe years of nothing to being used is a shock?
Another brake question: the rear brake compensator. If you disconnect on the ARB and push it up (like the ARB would do in use) should you be able to detect movement on the piston end? I cant budge it.. its like its seized
Mark
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Over in Montecarlo land we have had great results with Classic Car LEDS https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/?srsltid=AfmBOopstwarehpeUE3Yr62h_j-iyydVgt8tBA0KwBP88YlfgYAS68GD They have made a kit for the Monte and I have most of it on mine. The quality is far better than the ebay specials and they are not too big for the housings as many ebay ones are. An amazing transformation in tail lights and indicators. Of course you need an LED specific flasher relay which they also supply. Enjoy.
Hi Eric, when buying LEDs what are your thoughts on the type, warm or cool?
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I prefer Warm, but it is a personal preference. I did go for the extra bright reversing bulbs for practical dark car park reasons.
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Brilliant thank you Eric
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Rear brake light, tail light and reversing lights now LED's - I will order the rest some other time, indicators and headlights in a couple separate orders
Carb parts being sent away for repairs and everything here or on order to rebuild it - gaskets, float and pin and bunch of stuff to clean it with.
Right a day off booked this week to make a start on the front and rear strut inserts, hopefully its not tipping down. Does anyone out there know what size tool I need for the screw-top original struts? I can see on eBay that there are lots of tools that could fit, just need the size. Maybe if I get it jacked up I can measure one of the insert screw-top?
Mark
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If the rear lights are dismantled (no mean feat!) then it's worth cleaning the reflectors and lenses, if the silver finish is dulled you can get some chrome paint and etch primer and redo them? I really must connect some of my lights up to 12 volts sometime!
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Re: rear lights, they have been done Guy, well once before. One day I might take a look at doing them again
Today I got the rear struts ready, built and wirelocked. Now time to pull out a strut one at a time. Carb top should be back in a week, so back together hopefully in time for the Surrey club lunch. I am hoping... and cant wait to drive it on new struts and rebuilt carb
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Rear sus back in (for the fourth and hopefully last time for the time being). Using a ratchet strap made a massive difference to fitting the ARB back up. Struts pre-loaded and all bolts torqued up.
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Now the front... first one out. This is the leaky unit. Bearing is sort of okay. Any thoughts on which grease to use, I will check my manual and try and translate the Italian
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Hi Mark
I used a waterproof grease on these.
Peter
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I use Moly Grease although water proof cycle grease is good. Do really clean these with parts washer thoroughly before re-grease and fit. Your nylon insert looks trashed and the bearings are missing rollers. Perhaps find some used struts to strip for parts to replace these. I think the nylon insert helps to support he struts staying centered.
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and the other side is all good, in fact mint. Interestingly the support plastic still slots in place and does its job, and the bearing will do until I find a replacement. It easy-peasey to pull out and I need it off the drive.
I did clean and use a bike teflon waterproof bearing grease. Good side has a messed up stud I need to sort out.
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On the Stud. They can just be tapped out by putting a nut on top and tapping with the strut top supported. They only hold in place with a serration on the outer so a spare can be tapped in assuming your issue is a messed up thread that will not clean with an 8x1.25mm die.
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Thanks Eric. I have found a thread here on the replacement bearings I will strat checking the sizes later.
The stud. In the end I had to cut the nut off with a Dremil. The thread is gone. I have found a few similar studs but none exact. One is from a BMW Mini strut top fixing. I will order a few.
One sides back in and looking good. I have a week or so until the carb top is back from Classic Carb's, after a repair. I have a feeling the carb might need a complete refurb but I am trying the correct jets, good clean (as instructed by Classic Carb's) and float location as it should and see how that is.
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Studs - I think I've got a few spare ones I had plated that I'm happy to donate to the cause. Cause I don't need them! They've been plated and should just pull into the top mount with some washers and a nut. Or a hammer. Drop me a PM?
Cheers
Guy
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Oh thats brilliant tvm Guy
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I will finish off cleaning the rest of the carb later. Plus been ordering stock yellow bzp nuts and bolts etc. I have rounded off a ARB bolt on the front so might do that in a mo as I have the right HT yellow bolts for this.
I have cleaned the front ns shock out of oil and its been draining etc. I will build it up tonight, baring the top mount etc
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Yesterday was a sunny fine day. Finally got all the wheels back on and off of its home of axle stands. Thanks you all for your help and advice and parts. All suspension done for the time being.
#viewfrommytea
Waiting for the carb top to come back post repair from Classic Carb and rebuilt with the right jets and a new float and needle. Hopefully over the Christmas period in time for a couple outings.
Next it will be gear change bushes etc; valve clearances and maybe the front bumper off in Jan to try and sort out the shrinking rubbers.
Happy Christmas to you all.
Mark
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Happy Christmas all.
Carb top back from Classic Carbs having been repaired. All cleaned and correct jets loaded now ready for an install and hopefully start up in the morning.
Question - what is this hole near the base, and no its not the idle mixture, thats around the corner. I cant find any reference to it anywhere so far
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Pants!!
So carb back on and pretty much started and ran straight away. All good.
Long story short though, ran it up to temp twice and went for a spin. 1 mile away from the house, put my foot down and bam white smoke out the back and now power. I got it off the duel carriageway and stopped. I coxed it home after a quick check. I think running on two cylinders.
1 and 4 are pretty much dead and 2 and 3 were at c175 psi (really quick spin over). Coolant gone'ish but the oil looks okay. Head off next week.
I think in order 1234
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suspension felt nice ;D
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Sorry to hear about the latest hiccup - you'll get there! Hoping to get back on my car in the coming days after a bout of flu.... Great timing.
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Thanks but thinking hey at least I will get to the bottom of the state of the engine this way, and happy to do this in the winter near home rather than miles away in the Summer. After all its a spare to the spare car ;-)
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Can I change the title of my blog to 'What next?!!' :D
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Hi
Hope the block does not need a skim, just the head or just new gasket....
Peter
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Me too. I am thinking the worst, and if it has to come out its the time to go through the whole thing. Best case if its just the HG I will sort out the broken tensioner bolt, and go through items such as water pump, exhaust manifold studs etc.
Do you remove the manifolds (both) before removing the head or after?
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Have you got a replacement tensioner bolt Mark?
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I have, Peter found and supplied one. Interestingly I have read a few times (inc in my GC book) to not use it but use a HT bolt and lock nuts.
Questions I have are:
1. how best to remove head, ie manifold on or off?
2. bearing in mind I am doing this on my drive and with a reduced budget for the time being, what should I check and do as a matter or course even if the head and block is in great nick? Obv if the engine is a mess thats a whole different longer term story. Interestingly looking at the photos down the bore myself and friend noticed it looked like honing marks... I wonder what I will find when I get the head off? Cant wait but its going to be later this week.
M
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Are you supposed to retorque the head after a few hundred miles? If it's showing signs of having been honed then there's a possibility that wasn't done? I'd be checking the cam box oil seals for weeping and replace them too. Disturbing the cam boxes and replacing gaskets there may lead to noisy tappets and the need to reshim them so leave well alone if the head is good and doesn't need a skim. If it does then so be it, valve stem oil seals at the same time, check the valve stems aren't bent when the head is off too. If it ran fine then they ought to be good and it's just a head gasket. New cam belt and tensioner bearing and alternator belt whilst it's all apart?
Tensioner bolts - I always used the spanner flats nearest the bracket, not the outer one when removing it. Less chance of shearing the head off. Somewhere I have a long handled, thin, straight, single ended spanner for the job. First used on my first car when the starter cable stretched and the pull lever stopped working. It was possible to push the lever on the starter motor from behind the car to get it going. (name that car!) but it is equally useful for removing and refitting a Beta tensioner spring!
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FYI here are before and after pictures of the head from the rally car after the gasket went. Bought a full set of top end gaskets from Betaboyz and replaced cam belt / tensioner / water pump / cam box gaskets / oil seals. Valves etc were all ok and didnt need to replace any shims. It had probably been on the way out for a while because engine felt like we had fitted a turbo once it was all back together........
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head cleaned
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Hi Mark,
These honing marks can last for hundreds, even multiple thousands of miles and can indicate good sealing
of rings and a gentle and correct running in period, all pointing to a healthy bottom end.
I haven't read why you say the head needs to come off. You mention zero compression,
have you checked the valve clearances and the cambelt tension and timing? I suggest you do
two compression tests, one as is, then another with a few squirts of engine oil in each bore. Doing this
will tell you if the issue is rings or valves.
The head can be removed with both manifolds in place, and it's easier to refit like this as some of the
bolts are really hard to get at in place. New manifold to down-pipe studs are recommended, along with new brass nuts.
WApp if you like.
Nigel
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Hi Nigel
I think the loss of coolant and the clean pistons indicate a head gasket failure, or worse......
Peter
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Ah, yes Peter. I missed those important details.
It is indeed probably a head gasket issue.
Nigel
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Did the gasket look like it had failed Mark? Is there any water in the oil?
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I have, Peter found and supplied one. Interestingly I have read a few times (inc in my GC book) to not use it but use a HT bolt and lock nuts.
Questions I have are:
1. how best to remove head, ie manifold on or off?
2. bearing in mind I am doing this on my drive and with a reduced budget for the time being, what should I check and do as a matter or course even if the head and block is in great nick? Obv if the engine is a mess thats a whole different longer term story. Interestingly looking at the photos down the bore myself and friend noticed it looked like honing marks... I wonder what I will find when I get the head off? Cant wait but its going to be later this week.
M
Manifolds and indeed carb on. Gives you some leverage and much easier to strip on the bench. It's worth ordering a pair of cylinder head spikes to help (Link below) Take care when lifting the head to do it cleanly. If you put it down again off-line you can mark the head face with the dowels in the block. Speaking of which note where they are, revove them and keep them safe.
The honing marks can be visible for years - don't worry about it. Once you've got the head off anything serious will be obvious - misaligned piston crowns, disconnecting rods badly scratched bores etc. Pop the sump and check the big ends if your feeling paranoid! Otherwise take the opportunity to strip and clean the head new gasket, new bolts if you don't know the history of the old ones.
https://motorsport-tools.com/catalog/product/view/_ignore_category/1/id/64211/s/motamec-engine-building-cylinder-head-stands-holder-set-steel-mounts/
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thank you for the advice so far and the link HF Stu
I managed to spend a couple hours and get everything off baring the exhaust downpipe and the head bolts. Cams look fine, there is water in the oil, cam timing looks fine. So tomorrow hopefully I will see. Depending what I find will guide my approach.
Obv stuff will be trying out the stainless water pipes I have and a new water pump (I have in stock ready), some new hoses, new exhaust studs etc.
So engine code is 828B1000 - 040230x. This seems to be post 82 so should have had Ribe-CV type bolts and it didnt. Lets see what tomorrow brings...
Meanwhile in the garden my boys and I managed to level my workshop build site and moved 3.5t of mot1, another 1.5 coming tomorrow. On my way to freeing up my garage :-)
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thank you for the advice so far and the link HF Stu
I managed to spend a couple hours and get everything off baring the exhaust downpipe and the head bolts. Cams look fine, there is water in the oil, cam timing looks fine. So tomorrow hopefully I will see. Depending what I find will guide my approach.
Obv stuff will be trying out the stainless water pipes I have and a new water pump (I have in stock ready), some new hoses, new exhaust studs etc.
So engine code is 828B1000 - 040230x. This seems to be post 82 so should have had Ribe-CV type bolts and it didnt. Lets see what tomorrow brings...
Meanwhile in the garden my boys and I managed to level my workshop build site and moved 3.5t of mot1, another 1.5 coming tomorrow. On my way to freeing up my garage :-)
The original bolts did have normal heads but were yield type bolts which is, of course confusing. Replacement bolts have ribe type heads which are great, there is very little risk of the tool slipping.
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As the head is off go the full way and check the valves are not bent before lapping them into the seats as a minimum. You will probably find from rocking the valves in the guides that the guides need replacing and you absolutely want to replace the valve stem oil seals or a smokey engine awaits soon after re-assembly.
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Read the threads on Head gaskets and make sure you use NEW bolts with the threads in the block tapped clean. There are a lot of very poor head gaskets on the market take great care with what you buy.
Gold standard is the Cometic MLS with Studs not bolts. You should be able to find and Astradur Brown resin VX type gasket as a cheaper alternative.
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Be also aware of new old stock items. Watched the video by a chap on YouTube (https://youtube.com/@nigelsfiat131channel) who rebuilt a 131 engine and used an old stock item which had copper sealing rings as part of it which had gone hard and would not compress correctly and lead to a leaking head gasket!
Peter
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Thank you Eric and Peter. Any suggestions for suppliers of gaskets and bolts, and if going for 'Gold standard is the Cometic MLS with Studs not bolts' any suggestions for suppliers?
Head off today: see pictures. Manifold the exhaust bolts were in mint condition so everything came off easily. Head bolts were not really tight at all. GC says the old bolts if re-used will never torque up tight.
I have been reading my GC book and making notes. I will be checking, cleaning etc and am in no rush. Time to get to the water pump and broken cam tensioner bolt, and do a lot of cleaning etc. I will replace most of the coolant hoses this time and have a pair of stainless hard coolant pipes to go on.
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Interesting to see the head gasket parts broken.
I bought RIBE headed bolts from Ricambio, https://www.ricambio.co.uk/products/head-bolt-kit-fiat-croma-tipo-tempra-lancia-delta-dedra-thema-beta
I will buy an MLS one this coming year. I was given a couple of suppliers, but there is only one manufacturer. Eric should be along to fill in details as do not have to hand.
Peter
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Pretty conclusive then!! I'll confess I've not seem one go in quite that way before. I wonder if No.1 somehow caused No.4 (or t'other way around) ?
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I wonder if the comments re the head bolts not being that tight may have contributed. Mark, I assume no history if the engine had the gasket replaced and they did not torque it up correctly?
Peter
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That's a pretty catastrophic gasket failure! Amazing that it went at both ends at the same time. I would suspect that that was caused by the cylinder head bolts not being torqued down properly, hopefully the head will be okay.
Guy
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When I dropped the oil there was no metalwork attached to the mag sump plug I fitted. I think the engine was okay. Compression of the middle cylinders was 180+. Zero smoke when driving or startup even after a prolonged layup.
I will strip the manifolds off the head and clean it up and I will try to check for any warp etc. I will have a good look at what I have before making any further decisions. I will report back
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If your car is a 1995cc it looks like someone has dropped some high compression pistons in there unless SA motors were different from European spec. Probably from a 1585cc motor by the looks of the piston crowns. Whilst it will make more power/torque it may need revised ignition timing to avoid pinking with the extra compression. Pinking/detonation will of course shorten the life of the head gasket among other internals. This is worth noting when choosing head gasket thickness.
Hope the rebuild goes well
Ian
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Darren Cooksey at Monte Servicing and Repairs in Kingsclere will source you the correct port cut out the right way round gasket. Note NOT the Integrale Cometic MLS Gasket. The 10mm studs are ARP from your Integrale supplier of Choice. Tanc Barrett has been good to me.
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Hi Ian
I wonder if you may be thinking they are domed pistons (optical illusion?), but I think they are actually dished ones (I could be wrong of course) so nothing like the high compression pistons I bought for my engine build which are domed and meant for a 1600 engine.
Peter
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Darren Cooksey at Monte Servicing and Repairs in Kingsclere will source you the correct port cut out the right way round gasket. Note NOT the Integrale Cometic MLS Gasket. The 10mm studs are ARP from your Integrale supplier of Choice. Tanc Barrett has been good to me.
Eric - can the head be lifted in situ with the studs in on a Beta or do the studs have to be removed first?
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Hi Stuart
I have always fitted these heads with 2 dummy studs in the block to guide the head down onto the dowels. Typically old bolts head cut off and slotted for removal with a screwdriver. Inlet manifold on on a beta no issue. Not sure about the exhaust manifold to bulkhead/ fuse box clearance. Probably best to fit the head then the exhaust manifold. Especially with the weight of the OE cast manifold.
Eric
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So stripped some of the engine parts off today and in the freezing cold, plus been watching Nigel's 131 engine builds and ready my GC book. Lots to think about and take in.
Parts off today - breather housing, water pump and tube, tensioner bearing (it does need replacing, it seemed fine when I did the cambelt in the summer). I cleaned up the pistons a little, and oiled the bores. Next I am going to see if I can get the broken cam tensioner bolt out, then a new bearing. I might try a dry run with the SS coolant tube I bought from Alan, and replace a bunch of coolant hoses.
After sleeping on it for a few days, for this rebuild I will buy new Ribe studs and a full gasket set. Maybe when I look at the engine further in the future I will look at more performance oriented parts?
Re: the head. Option one is pay someone to check it out and do a full head rebuild, option two is get it skimmed locally and do the rest myself? Either way I am going to strip it myself and give it a good clean and get the prices. If I can I will do it myself I think. I am going to chat to a local engineering company on Monday. So far I have been quoted £50 for the skim.
My plan was always just get the car running for 2026 and as economically as possible and get out there and have some fun (not that I dont find all this work fun 8) ). I did a total of all the parts purchased so far and its a bigger amount than I imagined. Pretty much all of it is just to make the car be safe and more reliable, well mostly ;-)
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Thank you all for the advice so far. Lots of useful information.
MF
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So stripped some of the engine parts off today and in the freezing cold, plus been watching Nigel's 131 engine builds and ready my GC book. Lots to think about and take in.
Parts off today - breather housing, water pump and tube, tensioner bearing (it does need replacing, it seemed fine when I did the cambelt in the summer). I cleaned up the pistons a little, and oiled the bores. Next I am going to see if I can get the broken cam tensioner bolt out, then a new bearing. I might try a dry run with the SS coolant tube I bought from Alan, and replace a bunch of coolant hoses.
After sleeping on it for a few days, for this rebuild I will buy new Ribe studs and a full gasket set. Maybe when I look at the engine further in the future I will look at more performance oriented parts?
Re: the head. Option one is pay someone to check it out and do a full head rebuild, option two is get it skimmed locally and do the rest myself? Either way I am going to strip it myself and give it a good clean and get the prices. If I can I will do it myself I think. I am going to chat to a local engineering company on Monday. So far I have been quoted £50 for the skim.
My plan was always just get the car running for 2026 and as economically as possible and get out there and have some fun (not that I dont find all this work fun 8) ). I did a total of all the parts purchased so far and its a bigger amount than I imagined. Pretty much all of it is just to make the car be safe and more reliable, well mostly ;-)
My local engineering man just did my Fulvia head tricut seats, faced valves, and lapped in and vac tested for £100 just to give you an idea. I did the rest (strip, clean, reassemble). I use him a lot and he gives great service - turnaround in days.... You also want to ensure the skim machine leaves a near polished surface....
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Look very carefully at the water pump condition and if in any doubt change it as well. Also the L shaped hose on the breather. It is VERY disappointing when this fails a couple of months after the re-build. NB you have the later bigger breather stub on your block so you want the VX/IE sized l shaped hose. It must be oil resistant a cut down water hose will fail.
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Look very carefully at the water pump condition and if in any doubt change it as well. Also the L shaped hose on the breather. It is VERY disappointing when this fails a couple of months after the re-build. NB you have the later bigger breather stub on your block so you want the VX/IE sized l shaped hose. It must be oil resistant a cut down water hose will fail.
I am going to replace a few hoses and this elbow, belt tensioner bearing and I already have a pump. Tvm
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My local engineering man just did my Fulvia head tricut seats, faced valves, and lapped in and vac tested for £100 just to give you an idea. I did the rest (strip, clean, reassemble). I use him a lot and he gives great service - turnaround in days.... You also want to ensure the skim machine leaves a near polished surface....
That is very interesting. I need to find someone to do the same locally.
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Mark,
SRS Engineering in Sutton appears to have good reviews. Don't know them though.
Experts:
Is a 'near polished surface' ideal for a head gasket 'grip'? My engineering thought
is that a flat surface is paramount but some machining evidence is not necessarily bad.
Nigel
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Thank you for the help. Traffic being what it is around here I was thinking I would just bite the bullet and use Kevin's guy down South, Brett Mils Motorosport. Talked to him today, seems a sound guy. I will look at SRS now though
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Right head all stripped down ready to go to Bret Mils Motorsport next week.
Question, can this water inlet be replaced?
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Right head all stripped down ready to go to Bret Mils Motorsport next week.
Question, can this water inlet be replaced?
I've never heard of anyone replacing one, not sure if it's mentioned in the GC book? I've not seen one as corroded as that before.
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Hi Mark
Simple answer clean it up and then leave it alone, suspect damaged head if you try to take it out. Yes it looks bad, but if solid will be ok.
Peter
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They are bonded into the head and an expert Machine shop job to bore out just enough to weaken and remove. Leave well alone if it is structurally sound.
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So my chosen engineering co (Brett Sims) to work and check my head has gone AWOL. Fnally got a reply back from FB Messenger that he is not opening for a month due to illness. Now what??
3hrs each way to Stanwood isnt looking terrible anymore. At least I know what I am getting? I cant find anything locally that fills me with much enthusiasm.
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Okay found a company that seem to know what they are talking about. SRS Engineering is Sutton. I will go over tomorrow
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Top alternator mount has a crushed rubber on it, anyone have a photo of what it should look like?
Part number is 82277375
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It seems to be a Fulvia part also but I can only find it on mainland Europe?
https://shop.historicracing.de/en/p/bushing-alternator-tensioner-fulvia-2-series
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New water pump and breather thingy fitted with a new hose and clips today
cam-belt tensioner tomorrow if its not raining. I removed the bolts for the drivers seat, and I will strip it out this week so I can finish the rustproofing and take a look at the floors etc.
I should get some news on the head earlier in the week
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All the seats out today. Every time I find a big spider in my South African imported car should I be scared :-))))
Question: How do I take the carpet out along the strip that runs along the inside of the doors?
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You just remove the plastic filler strip,
screws underneath.
n
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your a star, thanks Nigel
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new old head here, now off to the engineers next week to be tested
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Yay!! Head has passed pressure test. Order bits next
In between constant rain I managed to fit the door checks after a clean and paint, and guess what, they still dont work.
Fitted the cam-belt tensioner with new bearing and new/old spring tensioner bolt (thank you Peter). Hopefully this week I will get the carpet and centre console out and maybe the rear door cards
Mark
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So cams are both SNAFU. Alan is looking for some good used ones for me. New I have found one from the US new in South London and I guess I could by the other from the same source in the US? Lets see if I can get hold of some used ones first.
Picture shows where they have been hitting the valve bucket I believe.
Ordered valves and guides from AE Car today and Tanc Barrett are looking for the balance for me. Darren Cooksie recommended TB and also mentioned valve guide seals from a 8v Delta Turbo are a better bet.
I removed the centre console and more trim in my stripping the interior quest. How do the rear seat backs come out on a Coupe? Bottom screw I have found. I am going to look at restoring the colour from mud green to black hopefully using Polytrol (as per Guy's tip a while ago). So a quick look under the carpet and its still got the original sound dreading. There is a random screw I need to figure out where its coming from as its sticking up through the carpet from the underside. Or cut it off.
I am going to try and figure out a new 12v fused supply for the stereo and phone chargers etc. I would like to inc new oil pressure and temp gauges in the stereo slot at some point in the future, so my question would be, where is an easy entrance into the interior from the under bonnet and can I run aftermarket gauges at the same time as the original binacle gauges?
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Random screw from underneath? It might be one of three screws securing the exhaust heat shield?
I'll try to have a look through my spares for you and see if there are some spare camshafts in the bits and pieces I've got if that helps but it may not be until the weekend before I can have a look - visitors and then off to Gerrys' on Sunday for a week!
Rear seat backs - take the spare wheel out and then the fir tree fixing the carpet to the back of the boot and remove the carpet. You'll see two 8mm (or 10mm) nuts, unscrew them and the seat packs are free!
Guy
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I was thinking the same on the heat shield :-)
thanks for the cam-shafts possible help, and thanks for the seat info.
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Mark,
I found a wiring route that was fairly easy at the left side of the brake servo. In
mine it's where the a/c pipework used to be. Not sure whether you'll have a grommet
there.
Another spot is behind the wiper motor but you'd have to remove it to get there.
Nigel
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Hi
Will have a look through my camboxes and see what I have.
Peter
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The marks on the edges of the camshaft lobe peaks are correct and are not damage. I believe they maybe to spin the buckets and shims to even out wear and/or to silence the slap when the lobe hits the shim. But this is not damage as far as I’m aware.
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Hi Mark
Ian is correct (as you would expect), just dug out my exhaust cam and every lobe has those triangular marks, so assuming the rest of the lobes and bearing surfaces are ok, you are good to go.
Peter
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I assumed this when I stepped the head. So much work…. So many conversations etc 🤷♂️
That is good news. Engineers sent a video I will upload and share
Thanks guys for potentially saving another packet. So many beers I owe 🤣
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https://youtube.com/shorts/1A-WmXQWcpo?si=pBiM96it-sSlI3Mz
It looks like some have the marks and some don’t, maybe it’s been re-ground or dressed?
I will call him in the morning
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So head should be back by the 6th March - new valves, guides, seals and springs. He is measuring cams tomorrow.
Meanwhile gear change bits and bobs out. New bushes fitted tonight as Mangocrazy's instructions, worked a treat, thank you for that. The old ones where so stiff. This should be interesting when its all back in. I have ordered a gaiter and bush for the rod on the gearbox from Mark, with a Gearstick Throw Reduction Kit. While I was there I have found the bolt sticking through the carpet. I will spin it about and stick it the other way with a couple nuts. I will start building it back up get the carpet back in. Then a bit of rust proofing...
Anyone have any thoughts on what I can replace the gaiter for the gear rod exiting the car, ts not in great nick?
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Hi Mark
That gaiter if not prefect, maybe repair with rubber and superglue or similar?
Peter
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gear-change rods all ready. They are so smooth, cant wait to feel the difference. There is a little bit of play in the bell-crank but that will need to wait. Mark had a good gaiter and the plastic gate thingy. Which way does it go back in?
Mark
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Oh and adjusted my steering when so hopefully on straight now
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Hi Mark,
Is it possible to remove the spindle downwards ? Talking about the spindle that goes through the support attached to the subframe.
Otherwise it looks like the subframe would have to be dropped or the steering rack removed to get this spindle out. The reason I ask is that there is a spacer/washer in this assembly that is probably nylon and used to cushion the movement of the spindle. It often wears to destruction and causes the gearshift action to sound "clunky" because of the vertical play (see item 29 on the following pic)
Cheers,
Steve
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I have a tiny bit of wear. For the time being its staying put. at some point the either the rack of subframe will need to move to get to it. I guess its depends on how the gear change feels? Tbh it wasnt terrible before I started, well maybe a bit terrible ;-)
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Hi
I had to do this last year to address the upwards movement to improve gear change. I had to take the rack bolts out and that allowed the rack to move upwards by just enough to remove the pin. It is a PITA and a little more design thought would have made it so much easier....
Peter
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what did you use to sort it Peter? I should have some new TCA bushes coming also so maybe I should just get on with it whilst the heads out of the way
Mark
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I had a couple of spare pins and various washers and used the best fitting parts to reduce both up and down movement and play in the shaft and swivel. Assuming the bearings and shaft are good then just the up/down movement can be adjusted by using shim washers etc. The problem is too tight and no movement, too loose and you get up/down movement, so small changes make a difference.
Peter
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Hi Peter,
The gear change was always noisy on all my Betas and I have always thought that this spindle spacer was a major contributor.
Did you find this job worth doing in terms of making the gear change quieter ?
Cheers
Steve
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Needs to be added to the "Things that Mark (Betaboyz) should sell" list :o
For me I want to strip it and repair and back together as fast as possible. Now I need to strip it, but before remove the rack mountings, measure said item and go look for a replacement for x days/weeks. If anyone has one out a measurement would be groovy 8)
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Hi Peter,
The gear change was always noisy on all my Betas and I have always thought that this spindle spacer was a major contributor.
Did you find this job worth doing in terms of making the gear change quieter ?
Cheers
Steve
Noisy? Never really thought of it as noisy really. My big issue was when I returned from France last year getting 5th became increasingly difficult, eventually almost impossible. The main culprit was one of the nuts from that small link rod had become loose and hence an amount of play, but whilst investigating that I noticed the upward movement of the swivel arm (slight but noticeable) so a 'whilst I was in there moment', I decided to improve that at the same time which took a significant amount of time due to the rack being in the way.
The end result has been a very improved gear change, though will be interesting to see how much of an improvement the short change kit goes when I install on the HPE.
Peter
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Four tins of Bart Hamber wax in the rear panels and back end of the sills, In fact any home I could find. I will stick a camera up it at some point again.
Refitted my rear interior light but it seems to be dead, I will check it with a meter tomorrow.
Lower water rail back onto the new pump, anyone know the torque for the two nuts holding it on and compressing the o-ring? I couldnt find a setting so went with Oooo pressure.
Tomorrow some new hoses and stainless jubilee clips to go on. Waiting for an order from BB/Mark to get the gear change rods back in.
M
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so the gear change rods with new bearings and new little rod fitted. The little rod was horrible to fit on a gravel drive with not much room from below. One last nut to go and the new bush on the rod on the gearbox.
I now have replacement bushes for the tcr's inner connections. It has something home made fitted currently so these should be relatively easy. There cant be any more bushes for me to replace ;)
Tonight I fitted the Betaboyz Quick Shift Kit to the GC. All easy enough. I have not mig welded for 35 years when I was given a good very used unit winter 2023/4, I practised for a for a few weeks and then the Beta purchase stopped me, and I was scared in setting my shed alight...
So actually quite happy I was able to do this tonight. Anyways its all covered up in the car when fitted
Head should be back Monday, one set of guides were the wrong size so he had to order more. Plan this weekend is get everything ready as I can. I have a selection of cams from Peter (thank you again) and a pair I found on eBay. Alan thinks they are off a Fiat 130TC so not sure if they should be used. I will take all to the engineer to look at and then if still a concern I can get more from someone on the Twin-Cam FB page.
Happy weekend to everyone :-)
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Hi Mark
Well done on the gearshift, for one minute on viewing the photos I thought you had forgotten to remove the original collar!
I still have that job to do.
Peter
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After finishing I had a horrible feeling I did it wrong and had to check my photo's :-) What on earth did we do before cameras on our phones?
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Interior almost fully back in on the weekend.
Collected the cylinder head and assorted bits and bobs. Looking good. He said the face was excellent and didn’t need a skim.
Question: one of the cyl head dowels is mashed a little. Any thoughts where I can some? Are they all the same, ie Early Fiats and LMC?
Cams were checked out. 130’s are almost perfect.
I will start building and mock it up tonight hopefully.
Mark
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You can get close to final shims by using on cam box at a time, a greased base gasket 4 x 4.00 shims and letting it settle for at least 2 hours. Oiled cam bearings and lobes rotate 2 cycles and check/record the shim clearances. Depending on the valve setup height you might need 2 cam box base gaskets stacked to get to a sensible shim range. In rare cases no cam box base gasket only carefully sparingly applied RTV sealant. Easier to find this stuff out one cam box at a time with the head off. Read that GC manual it is your friend now! I see cam timing discs and Magnetic DTI gauges in your future as you get the cams timed in each cam box and marked.
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Question: one of the cyl head dowels is mashed a little. Any thoughts where I can some? Are they all the same, ie Early Fiats and LMC?
Not sure about later models but same as montes:
https://www.eurosport-uk.net/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=51_66&products_id=816 (https://www.eurosport-uk.net/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=51_66&products_id=816)
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Right ordered some from AECar, along with some cam carried gsks.
Thanks for the advice again
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While I remember get some 8x1.25 plugs to Loctite into the unused VX Stud holes to avoid annoying leaks later. Also ensure the exhaust studs that go into the oil bath have loctite sealant on them to stop oil weeping onto your exhaust.
The cam base gaskets you want will have a red sealant band on them. Anything else will need a smear of RTV on both sides or they will leak! When they stopped being asbestos based they became hopeless. This was why GC commissioned a better design.
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Tah-dah! Little dots mark the spot.
Had some fun last night. Bought some spare gaskets and did as I was told. I have a list of shims to get now. I will then recheck before trying a dry run on the engine, manifolds off.
It was quite hard to measure clearances as the shims I have were very close to the buckets. So I will get some spares so I can do this a second time. How long should I run the engine before I re-check again?
Other fun I had was worried about the cam dizzy drive and the end caps. I dont really want to machine this off, but when fully tightened the end cap is hard against the drive. Long story short two gaskets seems to fine, but then the edges are no longer there as a support for possible end float. I think I am going to try cutting a drive size hole through a donor end cap and then use another on top to seal. Hope that makes sense
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If you've got two gaskets I'd be tempted to make a spacer rather than drill a hole in a cover that you'll then struggle to seal by placing another cap over it. Or, if you've got a spare cover, just remove the raised section to create the spacer?
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I was thinking similar. I will check with the other cover in a mo.
Other gaskets, do I use Wellseal on items such as Inlet Manifold for example? Any recommendations for other items such as the temp senders?
Mark
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I use wellseal on everything other than head gasket, rocker gaskets and exhaust manifold......
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With 2 end caps cut a hole in one large enough to clear the peg drive. In the second use a hole saw to cut out a round blank which you then weld over the first one. If you drill holes around the edge of the round bland you can neatly plug weld it in place and dress the welds. Add some sealant to the join inside and out then paint the outside.
The IE cam end plates have a different design to match the IE cam boxes FYI.
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Hi Eric, I am sort of there now. I have a spare one coming to modify. It took me a while to get there but I had the eureka moment.. :-). Interestingly I didn’t realise the cap is a sort of cam end float check plate. You can see a tiny amount of wear on the edges. So Guy you need the edges of the plate in place, but a hole to clear the peg drive only.
Question, where do you source cam carrier base gaskets as you describe? I can’t find them.
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I have seen these on eBay, but not search UK suppliers recently. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/275632226840
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I have seen these on eBay, but not search UK suppliers recently. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/275632226840
That's an interesting gasket - I've looked at these in the past but was deterred by the different shape around the outer edge at the cam belt belt - I assume it's sufficient to still make suitable contact, but does look off compared to the stock version - or is this the wrong gasket despite the listing claim? Apologies for the crude gasket comparison attached:
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I had not noticed that difference and will have to dig out my Guy Croft supplied base gaskets that I am carefully hording to see what the profile looks like. Because I have these I have not spent time looking for a current suppliers. Gloria GC's widow does still supply some parts. Without that it is back to smearing RTV on each side when fitting. Note NOT applying huge beads of the stuff which then breaks away in use bocking the oil pump screen!
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Yep I will going old school. I will be using a minimal amount of Wellseal. Its taken a couple goes to get the clearances close. Done now. New camshaft seals in. Dry run hopefully in the morning. s***ting myself now ;D
'Safe position' in GC book, is that timing marks aligned? Pistons and aux drive were aligned to the timing marks before I removed the head. I will do the dry run with the old (<500 miles) belt and the spare head gasket that came with the gasket set.
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It is easy to bend a valve head so go very slowly.... c -/+10 degree TDC is the critical point (-ex +in)
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If I align all the marks before I put it back together that should be right, right? :-)
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Remember you are running larger valves with domed pistons, so as well as timing clearance on cutouts may be an issue, though I know you are using clay or similar on pistons to check for clearance. As Tim says go very slowly......
All the best with it.
Peter
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tell me about it, I am c###ing myself! What can go wrong, vx head 130tc cams on and engine I dont have a clue about that sort of ran before?!!
Alan had an idea, I have an endoscope that is can change the view to two-way from the side. Thinking I carefully stick it down a cylinder without the clay and video
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Hi .Mark
That might work, but would be hard to see the exact clearance you have maybe?
Peter
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OK Crank at TDC Cams at the timing marks you made when you timed the cams in. Your exhaust valves will be standard size. Your inlets will be 43.5 or 44mm verses standard 42mm. The reason you timed the cams to the boxes and marked the cams and boxes directly is so you are not misled by unsuitable cam wheel marks.
Follow GC's instructions to find and mark TDC accurately to a fixed pointer not a flimsy belt cover. This procedure will involve a DTI tool and a protractor stuck to the crank pulley with blu tack.
A slow dry build turn over with Plasticine to check will do you no harm as long as the crank cams and Aux DS are correctly positioned. Do NOT turn 1 cam independently of the other with both fitted or put the head down on a bench on the valves. Upside down or side on only to avoid bending your new valves.
2 old head bolts with the tops cut off and flat blade screwdriver slots made in the top of the shank can be used to guide the head down onto the block accurately. Remember the gasket and dowels. First stage head gasket tight will do. NB I used an ebay cheap and nasty head gasket for this dry build provided it is a similar thickness.
If at any stage you are not sure walk away for a cup of tea and a read of GC's book.
Keep every thing surgically clean. Grimy benches and dirty tools is dirt and grit in your engine. Time with the marigolds is well spent!
Enjoy your success.
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If at any point in turning over it becomes suddenly stiff STOP and check you are working from both cams at their TDC marks. The Aux DS is timed at 37 degrees to stop the lobe hitting No2 Conrod. I do not use a manual fuel pump on any of my engines s the lobe removal and plug has been done. With that done no need to time the Aux DS.
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Thank you for all your help.
So dry run head on yesterday with the set head gasket and some playdoh. Long story short I have 7.1mm of clearance, so even taking into account the better head gasket is thinner by 0.1 and torqued down I feel I am going to be okay.
This morning I sorted out the cam end-float thingy. Using one on top of the other worked really well.
Added the manifolds and when Team Ferris got back from rugby and football duties we all lifted it into place. Head bolts fitted as per Guy Crofts instructions and cam-belt fitted, I still need to tighten the tensioner.
I know I am not doing this as well as some of you guys. Time and money are against me so fingers crossed and with prayer to the Twin-Cam gods it will be okay ;-) Its worth a try.
Few bits & bobs to go:
Cam belt tensioner
Back of head brackets
Cam cov gaskets
Exhaust down pipes
Oil plug and let drain the last few drops of the old oil
Water rail
Water pump pulley
Tension other belts
Hoses
Exp tank and bracket
Carb
Dizzy
Electric connections to the sensors etc
Coolant - flush it at least once
Oil (filer changed) I have a Millers running in oil I am going to run initially to flush everything out, and then change the oil and filter with the right stuff
Spark plugs and leads
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What a lovely day on Saturday. View from my tea 8)
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Nice work and the Tea is a VITAL component!
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Excellent - hope you had a beer later! Keep the champagne on ice until the successful startup!
Guy
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Thanks. Right I have a day off tomorrow, and the forcast looks good. Plan is to have it running.
Forgot to mention, those yeld bolts give you the creeps doing up the final 90d :-O
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I see one of your jobs is the cam belt tensioner.....
Hope you had the belt tightish when rotating the engine for
clearence testing.
N
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I used the old belt (<500 miles :-) )with the tensioner 'loose' for about 5 or 6 full turns.
Now with a new belt. Time to check as per Guy Crofts instructions and torque up, and not break the spring bolt this time :-)))
Exhaust downpipes fitted tonight after work, that went a lot easier than I imagined. Day off tomorrow to really sort this out
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Shout if you do break it - I may have a spare but no promises! Try to tighten it fully by using the flats behind the spring where the bolt will take more strain? I know it's hard to gauge the torque applied there but I'd rather have it fully tight than risk snapping a hard to get bolt...
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What a lovely day on Saturday. View from my tea 8)
And in the correct mug too.
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AT B####y LAST! It runs!!!!!
Massive shout out to my saviour who was right days ago, thanks Alan Rossocorsa. Long story short Mr Engineer mixed up the cam pulleys and marked them up and I am not good enough at this stuff to spot it. Alan mentioned dimples/holes on the cam-wheels today and this came flooding back from my early 90's Beta engine rebuilds, a quick Google of stock photos, Nigel 131's two engines etc confirmed. Inlet timing marker hole is csk and exhaust is not. I had them the wrong way round. Compression went from 50 to 180 :-)
Still lots to do, but it starts on the button. Timing needs sorting first, flush the coolant and oil and filter again etc etc. I wonder if I can get gears and it will move? ;)
https://youtube.com/shorts/q_RpwoWnoEE?si=RyMm3BZUzgfK-aEz
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I am sorry for your suffering! I thought you would follow the instructions for timing the cams to the cam boxes from GC with marks on the cams and cam carriers. This would have shown the cam wheel marks as wrong quickly and you would probably find ideal timing for the cams is not exactly where the cam holes are. The lucky gods are with you getting away with turning it over cam wheels reversed. You will be running with it soon.
That video showed the cheapest nasty head gasket variety and I thought he was going to add sealant to the head gasket as well. For the benefit of others NEVER do that. Along with NEVER re-use a head gasket, original bolts or used stretch bolts. You can of course re-use an MLS gasket provide block and head are flat and clean.
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https://youtube.com/shorts/q_RpwoWnoEE?si=RyMm3BZUzgfK-aEz
Sorry that was the wrong video, it was meant to be my car running, amended now
Yes Eric you are of course right. I studied and looked it the timing compered between the two sets of cams and decided it was worthy of a go. I do need to learn how to do this properly as I understand what you are saying re: std accuracy not good :-D
I used the gasket that came with the set to test and bought a racing Spesso one for the final build, new ribe bolts
My problem is I have limited time, energy, and mental power after a day at work, when my wife's away dealing with kids, dog etc Now its running I can keep playing and improve it
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Well Done Mark! This stuff is difficult to do right. Far too many people want to get away with cutting corners that do not lead to happy results for long. Enjoy it.
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So checked the oil and coolant, sorted the ignition timing and had a play with the Gunson Colourtune (I think I failed to get anywhere with this). Took it for a 9 miles drive. No coolant pressurising issues and so far zero leaks. Engine sounds good so far. Managed a 9 mile drive locally with no issues.
Issue #1: So I have lost all the small lights, side front and rear, and dash lights for some reason.
Issue #2 no reverse and 5th gear. Gear change 1 through to 4 feels sweet. I have run out of adjustment on the end rod, but read on a post hear you can add a washer or two under the gear change housing. I will go and find it and repost the link
Mark
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I think the wear in my bellcrank thingy is the issue. I cant see I am going to be able to get to this for a while so the other option is here:
https://lanciabeta.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=472.msg1795#msg1795
I think this will do the trick until I can get the subframe lowered enough to get to the correct repair. I will try tomorrow.
I need to start riding my bike again. Seems to have stopped since I got this car, well nothing since Sep at least. This weekend of pasties and bacon rolls at the Classic Car Restoration Show has not helped :-)
PS the first four gears feel brilliant now
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I think the wear in my bellcrank thingy is the issue. I cant see I am going to be able to get to this for a while so the other option is here:
https://lanciabeta.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=472.msg1795#msg1795
I think this will do the trick until I can get the subframe lowered enough to get to the correct repair. I will try tomorrow.
three washers did the trick front left of the main gear stick support
lights lights lights now
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Hi Mark
Have you checked to see how bad the bushes on the gear lever rods are including the small link rod?
They can fail and leave you with no gears if old and worn out.
Peter
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Morning, all bushes replaced and the link rod, AND the bushes on the gearbox end rod. I think its the wear in the bell crank thingy losing some of that motion. When I fix the bell crank slop I am sure I can loose the washers
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Mark,
The small link rod should be adjustable. Seems like you're not getting
quite enough sideways gait.
Maybe a mil or two longer?
Edit to add: If you can adjust that rod it will affect the position of the gait
in relation to centre (3/4 gears) so you'll need to adjust the front
vertical support.
N
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I will take a look at the weekend Nigel. I will not put the console back until I have checked. I thought it was fixed I must admit.
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I would be tempted to sort out the play before messing with the link rod. Just a small amount can make life difficult getting one or more gears.
Peter
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I will get to it. Just not now. I am thinking I need to drop the subframe, but then I then need to source a part so the car will be on the drive with its subframe hanging off for days
M
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Does anyone know what causes the vertical play in the bell crank....Is it a plastic shim that is missing/broken ?
Cheers,
Steve
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Hi
Guess just general wear, I found it really sensitive to what thickness washers were used. I had a play with various to get rid of the up down movement, but you should also check the side to side movement which indicates the bush or pin are worn. Having the pin plated can help increase the diameter albeit slightly to help with this side to side movement.
Peter
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Another 5 miles spin early evening...
Tested compression and was low 180's psi on all pistons. Went for a spin, all gears are working well (I have ordered new bell-crank bushes from Betaboyz).
I then tried Gunson Colourtune but couldnt get it better than this - https://youtube.com/shorts/qEcRmVhwbDI?si=3GbsxJf07ZOkmVID
I think I need to find someone to tune it now
So lights... funny thing is on full beam the whole work, off FB I loose, side and rear tail and dash lights. Odd.
Change coolant and oil this weekend. Fix lights. Interior in. Tracking
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Weather has not helped and on my own with one son and dog.
Oil changed and coolant changed. I double checked my jets just in case I put them in the wrong place and I hadnt. So while I was there I swapped some of the jets back to the original spec (as the car was before I rebuilt the carb) and it does seem a lot better. Hopefully get a tune booked this week.
Next investigating the non-working side, tail lights and dash illumination. tried all the obvious stuff, and while I had the instruments out I thought I would start removing some of the icky-sticky tape, and repair some of the previous splicing. Originally my instruments were hard wired to new connectors. I replaced the instruments and went back to the old connectors no issue and I just bagged them up. I removed them and cut out the splicing and used crimp joiners and heat shrinked the connections and tested.
Still no side-lights, I wondered if the instrument connections had come loose. Alas not. I have an old set of switch-gear I am going just plug it in and see if it works before I go looking to trace more. Earths seem okay. I am going to head to the distribution point next behind the glove box #59/5 is worthy of a test. The fact it all works on full beam strikes me its a switchgear issue.
I need to find some replacement switch connectors at some point
I was also contemplating reverse engineering my much nicer fusebox, but one step at a time
Mark
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I spent a couple days on and off removing vast amount of sticky insulation tape, repairing cuts and joins (and testing) with crimp on joiners and heat shrink, whilst trying to trace my lack of side lights issue. One item I was ignoring was switch gear as it was 6m old but more and more it was pointing this way. Dug out the old original one and yep that was the issue. New one has to be sent back to Italy to checked so I just bit the bullet and ordered another. I will send the old one back in due course.
Right so in the meantime in between rain its time to rebuild the interior. I think headlights are next. I dont thing the mountings are actually working well
M
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New stalks fitted and lights all back to normal - a week of evenings wasted
50% of a renovated lhd cowl fitted
make and fit brkt for engine breather catch can - done
fit catch can and hoses fitted
Tried to adj front and rear tracking, and 50% failed i think. Rear looks sort of right, and front was a pig and looks like its 30mm toe-out now after a spin around the block :D
Any chance someone out there can take a photo of a five wire HRW switch so I can check on my wiring order please?
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I think i did the tracking better today. It feels better. I will double check later in the week.
I purchased a cheap lhd cowl from Italy, it was a mess. I cleaned it up, repaired the fixings with spacers and a glue gun and sprayed it matt black. I had to trim it a bit. Now 75% fitted
I filled the tank up with fresh fuel and no additives or tank save stuff, re-timed the engine.
New plugs and Capriblu's jet recommendations this week.
Fitted the passenger seat and just before got one of the Recaro's out of the loft and checked the mounts are right and fit. While I was there I stripped them off to clean up and repaint on a rainy day.
Re-fitted the airfilter. I almost have my garage back after just over three months
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You can buy those Recaro Elastic Straps, but I have lost the details. After 40 years the elastic is past its best and easy enough to change it.
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I will take a look, I am also missing a side release button, its slightly different than whats seems to be availible in Internet world
Changed the jets today and so much better, plugs are here later. I feel so much happier to drive it now. Dyno/tune next week should really sort it
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I was also missing one side tilt button.
Ended up finding one on ebay for around £30. Extortion, but needs must.
Capri's of similar vintage have the same buttons.
N
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I will bear in mind, and keep looking. I have the interior, cards mostly, but I need to find a donor set.
New Champion N7YC plugs from these guys, very recommended. https://www.gsparkplug.com/1x-champion-spark-plug-n7yc.html
OMG plugs and jets what a difference, even cold'ish on no choke it was ticking over at way too low revs and the timing was nice and static.
https://youtube.com/shorts/dfvTMwgMbIA?si=fzYLDamH2oH4-5D9
Even the old grotty plugs were better after the 10 min drive earlier. Out for run tomorrow after work hopefully.
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So yesterday me and my son Tom drove the 80 miles there and back to The Departure Lounge Italian Day. Car preformed faultlessly, A3, 55-70, but mostly under 60mph. Met a fellow Beta Appreciation FB page Vx owner Lloyd W and had a good old chat. On the way home stopped off to see a mates 1935 Lagonda.
So the good: it didnt catch fire or blow up, my quick and dirty car phone mount worked, it steered straight, the brakes worked well. Gears I am thinking I just need more practice.
The not so good/needs work: I dont thing suspension wise its all good. Back looks too high. I will do some measuring later. I dont like the front wishbone bushes so have a set of OEM looking ones from Ricambio International. I think first is the front bushes, maybe get it all tracked and see if the rear end settles down or look at maybe some Vx springs Mark said he had. Back to the bushes...
I never had OEM bushes fitted when I got the car. I had home made and cracked ptfe bushes. If I put std items back in I am missing the ring that I assume is a spacer so you get the right bush location? Anyone out there have one you could measure for me and I will get something made?
Suspension/handling: what can I check? Tyre pressures, ride height, tracking/setup, front bushes, anything else?
PS phone holder quick and dirty mount worked a treat. Thanks Eric
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I've got a set of nice shiny plated front bush steel rings for you Mark. I just chucked them in with a load of stuff to be plated and then found out you don't need them with Mark's Polybush kit!
Now if only I can find your address again....
Guy
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I am trying to resize an image of the collar for the front bushes I am looking for but for the life of me I cant upload...
Basically its a spacing collar I think on the front bush, it has dimples I am thinking stop it moving about.
https://lanciabeta.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2575.0
one last try
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just sent an email to you Guy
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Two hours searching and no sign of them.....
Sorry Mark, I have a feeling that they were amongst some parts I took down to Mark Wastnidge last year, parts I knew I wouldn't be using but that might find a useful home somewhere. They must have been with that lot. He may have put them somewhere himself? Worth a call.
Sorry!
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I've got a set of nice shiny plated front bush steel rings for you Mark. I just chucked them in with a load of stuff to be plated and then found out you don't need them with Mark's Polybush kit!
Now if only I can find your address again....
Guy
Guy, I have just fitted MW's poly bush to wishbone with spacers. Why do you say you dont need them?
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Mine wouldn't fit Tim. The rings compressed the bush and distorted either the bush or the ring itself. The poly bush shoulder is wider than the ring and sits on the outer surface of the wishbone too. Of course it's possible I've got this wrong....
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Hi Tim, I also note that there are two types of front PolyBush on Mark's website.
There's one that uses the original bushing's sleeve and spacer in the wishbone. This is a one part bush. If you check out the photos of this bush on the website it retains the spacer collar and outer sleeve. Is that what you have?
There's also kit which requires the removal of the sleeve and has two parts which is what I have on my car.
Guy
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Hi Tim, I also note that there are two types of front PolyBush on Mark's website.
There's one that uses the original bushing's sleeve and spacer in the wishbone. This is a one part bush. If you check out the photos of this bush on the website it retains the spacer collar and outer sleeve. Is that what you have?
There's also kit which requires the removal of the sleeve and has two parts which is what I have on my car.
Guy
I think I bought these or something like them
https://www.ricambio.co.uk/products/front-lower-control-arm-bush-lancia-beta
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That's the standard bush Tim, you'd need the spacer ring with them.
These are the ones I bought
https://353652584127257704.weebly.com/store/p153/PU_Front_Lower_Wishbone_Set.html
And this is the replacement that keeps the outer sleeve and the spacer ring
https://353652584127257704.weebly.com/store/p599/New_PU_Wishbone_Bush.html
Cheers
Guy
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I've got a set of nice shiny plated front bush steel rings for you Mark. I just chucked them in with a load of stuff to be plated and then found out you don't need them with Mark's Polybush kit!
Now if only I can find your address again....
Guy
Guy, I have just fitted MW's poly bush to wishbone with spacers. Why do you say you dont need them?
Maybe I didnt buy MW polybushes after all.....
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[gulp...]
Dyno here we come. If he gets to hoof it on the rolling road I will take that as a win
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ride height is exactly as Mark's spring mule on std OEM springs - 375'ish at the front and 365 at the back centre to wheel arch lip. Still looks high to me on the back...
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First report back is 105 bhp and really really rich, plus there is something blocked in the carb. Investigation continues.
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It sounds like you have good people on the job. With your bigger valves, higher comp pistons and better than standard cams. I think you will get to 120+ with that carb sorted out and the standard exhaust once they have fixed the issues. I assume you are using 99 octane fuel. The original figures did many years ago. If you come away with great throttle response and decent economy do not worry over the end BHP.
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Thanks Eric, yes agree. The fact it can do a dyno session is a major start. It felt fast enough on the last couple runs, or maybe thats the noise (please see other thread going on :o )
Headlights, front bushes and maybe vx springs next
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As far as I know, VX springs were a little stiffer but
didn't change the ride height. I'm not sure how you'd identify
a VX spring from a standard version, perhaps they were colour-coded?
Sourcing those could be a minefield of woe, putting it simply I
don't think that's necessarily the route I'd take.
I agree your car rides slightly higher than standard, but so do many, and
some ride lower also. Given the work you've already done, I'd wait a while.
Are you doing Brooklands 2 May?
Nigel
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I asked a friend of Alan, Steve, who has had his Vx coupe for 39 years to measure. His car is 3cm lower at the back and 1cm lower than my car. Mark W had a 1600 Beta std coupe as his spring mule is exactly the same as my car F=370-5; R=365'ish.
Mark W has a set of Springs I 'might' look at
Car is ready and will be collecting later. I will post the results later
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On Front Bushes. Be aware the cars tend to torque steer with the standard wishbone bushes. The tapered end does not stop the wishbones from moving sideways under load. Several centuries ago Barry Waterhouse Engineering made me nylon packing bushes to stop the torques steer. I think Marks squared up bushes were made that way to help manage this. I have deleted the original wishbones for my car. I had tubular steel items made with some Nissan truck poly bushes. This is because I will be running double standard power and want to avoid snaking down the street under acceleration.
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As far as I know, VX springs were a little stiffer but
didn't change the ride height. I'm not sure how you'd identify
a VX spring from a standard version, perhaps they were colour-coded?
My VX coupe (original) springs were blue stripe rear yellow stripe front. Seem to remember my HPE VX were the same. I am very happy with the ride height
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Can you measure centre to arch lip for me please? I have photo's of the springs and the colours are the same as yours. Funny thing is if I measure my springs and compare to the specs in one of the Tech Manuals I have it says the rears are HPE. A suspension company that helped with my van said the best way to compare springs is weigh them..
Car is back home. Before the dyno they did a compression test, checked my valve clearances, ignition timing at tickover and 3500rpm, checked all other levels. All good and confirmed I am not an idiot.
I will ask for the brake test readings, he did tell me but I thought they would be in writing. All equal and front to rear bias is as it should be and handbrake is good. Drive home was great on smaller back roads, i did feel just from the off/pulling away it would hesitate a little and it cut out once and tried to cut out a couple times but I saved it. I was stuck in horrendous local traffic at the time and running on fumes.
I will take it out for a spin tomorrow and report back.
https://youtube.com/shorts/4tZPCrlhU74?si=-pW6-ewMbU3ZKbZM
So first few runs on over rich jets it was getting 105~110 bhp, and they managed a mid teens after jet tweeking. Happy it could cope with a dyno tbh. It might need more work but nice to know it ran okay.
I need to decide about the bushes now (I am just not sure about the current ones), plus I have some mint headlight mounts coming I will try and use my current lights. Then its ready for an MOT and a wheel alignment back at Harding Auto I think.
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A solid result and safer than guessing that results in another engine build. Improvements to the engine power/flexibility would now need a better exhaust mapped ignition (123 Distributor) and twin 45 side draft or 44 down draft carbs. Of these the 4 into 2 into 1 exhaust and mapped ignition are the best return for money and time. You probably see BHP more with better mid and part throttle driving. Or just enjoy what you have and smile.
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Thanks Eric. Tbh I was thinking the same (Re: better exhaust mapped ignition - 123 Distributor). Maybe an AFM guage?
Re: front bushes - I just dont like the lack of support. I bought some from very OEM looking ones from Ricambio and they have a very PU bush look about them. I am going to give them a go. Easy enough swap and now I have Guy's spacers I think :-)
Also have a plug or two to add to the HRW switch from Mark.
I am going start on re-fitting the side trim before I loose some loose bits. I have a bunch of clips. this one before the rear wheel arch, where the glue splodge there is a hole, should the black end cap have a clip to go through the hole?
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ride height of my VXHPE rear 37.5cm front 36.5 =/-0.2mm from wing edge to centre wheel cap
Re side stripes the blue splodge you have is in place of a moulded location "dowel" that just sits in the wing hole.
I have just fitted some of those Ricambio bushes with spacers. Not got the wishbone on the car yet but dimensionally they go onto the subframe without a fight.
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Thanks Tim. Interesting that a VX HPE seems to be on std HPE springs as opposed to lowered like the Vx Coupe. Those dims are the same as my car.
And thanks for the details on the plug, helps a lot.
MF
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Thanks Tim. Interesting that a VX HPE seems to be on std HPE springs as opposed to lowered like the Vx Coupe. Those dims are the same as my car.
And thanks for the details on the plug, helps a lot.
MF
I dont think the VX Coupe had lowered springs????? I will know when I refit mine.....
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I don't think any VX had lower ride height, only that the springs
were slightly stiffer.
Keep in mind that any comparison between cars must allow for 40 years
of use/replacements/wear etc.
Nigel
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slow progress this weekend... I now have a loose fuel inlet, I am sure disturbed by the garage but tbh its an old car right and explains "i did feel just from the off/pulling away it would hesitate a little and it cut out once and tried to cut out a couple times but I saved it." possibly..
I have posted on the Carb section so I will leave this there. Garage has offered to come and collect and sort but tbh its possibly easier for me to deal with. One set of bushes in the front suspension. I like these bushes. They seems like PU made oem - https://www.ricambio.co.uk/products/front-lower-control-arm-bush-lancia-beta They feel a lot more positive. Finally I have a leak out of my modded cam-box end cap, so Eric was right again and I need to look at welding it up and doing it properly this time.
Mark